Head to Head - Duff v Pires

[QUOTE=Baker

Agree completely that Irelands Duff is much better than Pires! I doubt if Bobby will make it into the French squad for the Ireland game not to mind the starting XI so I dont think it will affect the result of our game next next month.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe the stats prove that at Premiership or International level. I'm delighted Pires won't be playing and that Duff will be playing for us. Pires caused us some problems in Paris in what was a more open game than some can remember. He fluffed a great chance to score late in the second half. I'd be worried that himself, Wiltord, Vieira and Henry would click together down the flanks to devasting effect as they had often done at Arsenal and with France. Not having last season's highest goalscoring premiership midfielder playing against us is a major major bonus regardless of the personal reasons for disliking the player!! His stats undoubetedly speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

He certainly wasn't touched by the third man (nor the other two for that matter) so make of that what you will.

He got up and complained about which in my eyes is as bad as Rooney celebrating a penalty won by diving. It happens all the time - some players get singled out for it, others get away scott free. Nonetheless, it's cheating.


Duff, master of the art - Pires, cheat! :D :rolleyes: :o

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But did he have to jump over the legs to avoid being clattered ? Not sure of the rule on that. If you jump over the legs of someone who intends to foul you and you fall in the process, is that a free or do you have to leave your leg there to be clattered to get the free ? I suspect the latter.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

If you jump over the legs of someone who intends to foul you and you fall in the process, is that a free

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I would assume so. Why should you be disadvantaged by avoiding a leg breaker?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I was at the other end of the ground when Duff beat two players and seemed to be taken down by a third. Was it a dive ? Haven't seen it on TV from my armchair or barstool since.

There is no doubt Duff has mastered the art of going down to win frees but somehow it always looks like a free to my green eyes.

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I posted up a compilation of Duff's 1st half vs Italy and he wasn't touched in that incident. btw, it was 4 players not 2.

After duff dislocated his shoulder he got lessons from a Judo expert on the best way to fall to avoid injury. This not only makes him look like he dives when sometimes he doesn't but also makes him concentrate on his fall so he falls with the slightest touch.

Interesting those stats, one thing you could say if that Duff does less in several categories, but he is much more success at what he does do.
Here I list the 'stuff' and then divide the success by the failure, so higher
number in last line is better

Duff---------------Pires
77 Passes complete 109
57 Passes incomplete 87
1.35.......................1.25 Duff 8% more effective.

11 Crosses successful 1
84 Crosses unsuccessful 11
0.13...........................0.09 Duff 44% more effective.

29 Dribbles successful 24
32 Dribbles unsuccessful 34
0.9.............................0.7 Duff 28% more effective.

22 Tackles won 33
8 Tackles lost 19
2.75........................1.73 Duff 58% more effective

Those %age more effective numbers are massive in the last three
categories, he is in a 'different league'. Pires only wins out on shooting.

Much may be result of the Chelsea managers style of play "don't make mistakes" or as Brian Clough might say, "When in doubt do nowt".
If for instance you attempt a tackle and fail, it may prove costly.

A kind of analogy might be poker (which I play on line) when I started
I used to play more hands, and indeed win more hands than I do now.
However even though I was winning quite a few hands I was losing money :mad:
So... after a bit or analysis I now play less hands, I am more selective
in the hands I play, consequently I win a greater percentage of the hands
I play and hence I actually make money :) (honest!!).

So yes I used to win more hands but I also lost more hands, now I win less
hands but very rarely lose, I sit tight and over the last 4 months I have
made a steady profit, as opposed to the steady loss in the first 4 months.
Overall I am well in profit.

Back to football, I wonder how many of Pires 19 tackles lost resulted in
opposition goals? If you commit yourself to a tackle and lose out it
can often prove very expensive. So it is knowing when to commit yourself
to the tackle that matters, just as, in poker it is knowing when to commit
yourself to playing a hand that matters. :cool:

So Duff wins the jackpot!!

I also won a royal flush bonus of £75 last week!! (had to get that in :D )

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

But did he have to jump over the legs to avoid being clattered ? Not sure of the rule on that. If you jump over the legs of someone who intends to foul you and you fall in the process, is that a free or do you have to leave your leg there to be clattered to get the free ? I suspect the latter.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

I would assume so. Why should you be disadvantaged by avoiding a leg breaker? .

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Firstly, there was no leg breaking tackle put in on Damien Duff in this instance. Duff was tricky and drew two players into a tackle. Neither of the tackles were menacing nor did they make contact with Duff. Duff was already anticipating a perceived foul that wasn't forthcoming and dived over, got up and argued for a free. He certainly wasn't protecting himself as he could have lept over the players instead of a full length dive. Had he 'jumped' over, got up, dusted himself off and got on with it, I'd have been more likely to except he was executing a safety manovure.

Fact is, you are not punished for avoiding a leg breaker. If a tackle is dangerous or indeed even a foul the referee will give a free. He didn't give a free for Duff because neither of those incidents occurred, you cannot convince me that either tackle from the italians was dangerous or indeed outside the laws of the game. He lost control, perceived a foul and dived. Yes, he dived and by the laws of the game, he is a cheat.

It's the blindness of our own fans that annoys me at times. We'll continually make excuses for the actions of our players. He cheated, I don't love him any less but I except at times, that he tries to gain an advantage just like the other players I admire for their play but not necessarily their actions, Rooney, Ronaldo & Pires.

If the shoe was on the other foot and it had been an Italian we'd have spent the night boo-ing him, instead we gave the referee abuse for making a 99% right discision (1% was for not booking the player). Players will be players, fans will be biased.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

If you jump over the legs of someone who intends to foul you and you fall in the process, is that a free or do you have to leave your leg there to be clattered to get the free ? I suspect the latter.

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I can't comment on the Italy incident but your scenario is exactly why the penalty Duff won in Suwon against Spain WAS a penalty. In my mind, if a defender goes to ground and cuts across the attacker's run, it HAS to be a free if he fails to win the ball even if no contact is made with the player.

Karlos, do you remember when David Seaman "took down" Koller away to Dortmund a few years back? The English press was full of "diving cheat" accusations but, although DS made no contact with him, he dived right across his line, stopping an almost certain goal in the process.

I thought our booing of Pires in Paris was just part of the atmosphere. Pires, despite what people say, is far from the worst protagonist. Ruud Van Nistelrooy tried a disgraceful dive against Everton in the first game of this season that drew no comment from any media source.

Ipswich might still be in the Premiership if it wasn't for that diving cheat.

I'm not blind to Duff's antics. In fact I think if he & Robbie didn't go to ground so easily at times we might have had two penalties against Israel.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Pires, despite what people say, is far from the worst protagonist.

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Anyone watching the Liverpool game last night could tell you that.
The diving from both sides was pathetic!

Third attempt now at replying to this post, damn pc!

Basically, to accurately calculate effectiveness you need to divide the number of successful attempts by the overall number of attempts to work out your percentage. Doing this gives a more accurate picture of the success of both players in certain areas. Take passing for example where using the method you would actually notice that Pires has a 12% higher effectiveness rate than Duff which is a huge turnaround from the 8% inefficiency previously posted. In areas such as shooting the difference between Pires and Duff is 15% with Pires having taken 1 shot more than Duff in less time and the defensive stats have the players operating within 1% – 6% of each other. Should the calculating go further and take time on pitch into consideration then the states are altered even further in Pires’ favour. Pires with 93 minutes less has his stats bolstered further.

In closing the findings posted above are inaccurate and not a definitive look at one player’s superiority over the other unless of course that’s what you want to believe.

IMO, the stats show that both players are highly influential for the team they play for but are not direct comparisons as you must take into consideration formations, style of play, player responsibilities etc. One example would be to look at the crossing stats for both - I’d be amazed if the Arsenal in the whole season even attempted to cross the ball the number of times Duff did alone.

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

Firstly, there was no leg breaking tackle put in on Damien Duff in this instance. Duff was tricky and drew two players into a tackle. Neither of the tackles were menacing nor did they make contact with Duff. Duff was already anticipating a perceived foul that wasn't forthcoming and dived over, got up and argued for a free. He certainly wasn't protecting himself as he could have lept over the players instead of a full length dive. Had he 'jumped' over, got up, dusted himself off and got on with it, I'd have been more likely to except he was executing a safety manovure.

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First of all, 50-100 people have seen the 1st half comp I made and not one person mentioned this dive. Either diving is accepted now or it wasn't as obvious as you think.

Secondly, and the reason I'm uploading this incident is because Duff didn't argue. IMO, it was instinct for him to jump over the player and he felt ashamed to dive. He didn't for one minute stake a claim. This country is probably the biggest anti-diving country in the world. Duff would not want his fellow countrymen to think of him as a diver. IMO, this Judo thing that I was talking about is the reason for his easy falls over the last year. Either that or Mourinho is driving it into him.

anyway, here it is (2mb):
http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=33...A2R26BAGAZLWUA

And Karlos, I hope you don't try to argue in favour of your fellow Arsenalmen against Irishmen on Arsenal forums. ;)

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

First of all, 50-100 people have seen the 1st half comp I made and not one person mentioned this dive.

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I saw it from the North Terrace and thought then that it was a dive.
I've seen it in your clip and I'm even more certain that it was a dive.
I'm also sure that he did it more than once.
Against Arsenal he had at least one other "simulation" which deserved him a card. I always thought we had an ethic of honest football in Ireland but sadly, it seems, diving is coached not discouraged. :(

I agree, it was a dive. But he did get touched by Nesta's arm. Duff (unline George O'Callaghan ;) ) knows that we don't want to see divers in this country. Hopefully it is just instinct and he cuts it out as I don't want to see our younger generation getting any idea's.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

First of all, 50-100 people have seen the 1st half comp I made and not one person mentioned this dive. Either diving is accepted now or it wasn't as obvious as you think.;)

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If you go back to my initial post, I did mention that I was seated 10 or so yards from the incident to see that it was a blatant dive. From the South Terrace or other parts of the ground, it would have looked like a foul.....it wasn't, it was a blatant dive and the referree wasn't conned. simple.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

And Karlos, I hope you don't try to argue in favour of your fellow Arsenalmen against Irishmen on Arsenal forums. ;)

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I don't base my arguments on wheter the player is either a Gooner or an Irishman. Those who know me know that I walk around with Duff 9 on my Irish shirt anyways!! I think Pires is often harshly treated by both the media and supporters as a serial cheater. I'm ashamed when he does go down easily and just as ashamed when Duff does it or anyone else. I'm a football man first, blind supporter second. I coach and referree and I dispise cheating whether from a cheating foreigner or a beloved national hero.

p.s. I did boo Pires in Paris for diving and would have no problem boo-ing Duff at Highbury either for similar actions!!

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Originally Posted by Peadar

diving is coached not discouraged. :(

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Sad as this is, it's very true and no more truer than in the top leagues by top professionals. Only on Sunday I heard Stuart McCall, assisant manager of Sheff. United saying that if a player gets touched he should go down regardless of wether the touch is a foul. Last time I checked football was a contact sport, it's gonna get to a stage where it's too dangerous to do that now.

I can make sure i don't coach it to youth players but unfortunetly watching pro's cheat on TV each week nullifies any effect I can have on young players. :(

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

I'm a football man first, blind supporter second.

...I dispise cheating whether from a cheating foreigner or a beloved national hero.

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I would class myself in the same category.
If Ireland won a penalty for a dive, in an important game, I would not celebrate it, even though I'd be grateful for the chance to score. Cheating will always come back to haunt you!

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Originally Posted by Peadar

Anyone watching the Liverpool game last night could tell you that.
The diving from both sides was pathetic!

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By way of digression, how did Darren Potter do? I only saw about 10 mins of this game.

IMO its conclusive. he rolled over, no dive. Karlos, he did not argue for a free. He rolled over and up on his feet immediatly and ready to play any action, his body language and facial expression support that.
Have a look at it again. By the time the last tackle comes in, the ball is gone, too close to Roma. The last tackle came in from the nr 6, his outstreched leg came in between Duff's standing and trailing leg. Duff veered left and took his tumble.
It was good play by Ireland involving Kilbane's running and Morrisson's positioning.
My view of Duff is that as a much younger lad when he played for Blackburn, usually after the first humiliation of the defender Duff would get whacked and whacked again. Now its, you touch me I go to ground and get the free, you hit me then you get a yellow card. Its self preservation. I would say he is quite expert at it.Probably there are times when he has cheated, this latest incident is not one of them.
There are obvious examples of Irish players blatantly diving, e.g. Kilbane in the Holland game Sept '01 comes to mind as the most embarrassing.

re the thread, Pires is not likely at all to play any part for France against Ireland.

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

Firstly, there was no leg breaking tackle put in on Damien Duff in this instance. Duff was tricky and drew two players into a tackle. Neither of the tackles were menacing nor did they make contact with Duff. Duff was already anticipating a perceived foul that wasn't forthcoming and dived over, got up and argued for a free. He certainly wasn't protecting himself as he could have lept over the players instead of a full length dive. Had he 'jumped' over, got up, dusted himself off and got on with it, I'd have been more likely to except he was executing a safety manovure.

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I don't remember the exact incident myself, I was speaking generally as to what I'd imagine the rules are. If Duff needlessly went to ground, then it shouldn't be a free kick IMO.

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It's the blindness of our own fans that annoys me at times. We'll continually make excuses for the actions of our players. He cheated, I don't love him any less but I [accept] at times, that he tries to gain an advantage just like the other players I admire for their play but not necessarily their actions, Rooney, Ronaldo & Pires.

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Duff dives, I'll freely admit it. He dived at least two or three times against Italy. I don't care though, the opposition usually do too.

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Originally Posted by geysir

IMO its conclusive. he rolled over, no dive. Karlos, he did not argue for a free. He rolled over and up on his feet immediatly and ready to play any action, his body language and facial expression support that.

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I'm positive that he dived and have seen the actual incident live and again on TV on a few occasions. I think others have confirmed this on the thread.

Unfortunetly I cannot access that site to look at what happened after the incident now but I distinctly remember him along with Kilbane i think, remonstrating with the Linesman directly after the passage of play had died, perhaps it hasn't been caught on the footage or was in relation to something else (could have been between 10 or 15 seconds, maybe more, after he got back to his feet).

As i said I was no more than 10 - 15 yards from Duff myself when it occurred and directly in line with it. I'll check the footage again later and will happily stand corrected if wrong on the arguing part. :)