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In one breath you suggest strength in depth at centre half, in the next you suggest both Coleman and Doherty fit into the system. Which strongly performing centre half do you drop to fit Coleman into your system?Quote:
Originally Posted by ColourfulPeanut
Also, why would McGoldrick be isolated in a 3 man attack?
On the McGoldrick question, I felt that under Mick when we went with a 4-3-3 it turned into a 4-5-1 quite quickly. We had James McClean playing on the left and reverting to type as a winger. Robbie Brady ended up on the touchline too when he played wide forward. Our men always appeared to be too far away from McGoldrick.
I don't think we need to go 3-5-2. And I don't think we will. Am I correct in saying that 3 teams play that formation in the PL- Wolves Sheffield United and Brighton? It just so happens that Doherty and Stevens are two of the 6 first choice options at the three clubs.
Well Egan and Clarke both generally play left of the three centre backs so only playing one of them alongside Duffy and Coleman probably makes sense. However if you wanted three out and out centre backs you could move one of them across to the right of the three, probably Egan. That's a position that would also suit Dara O'Shea. So there is depth there.
Doherty and Stevens would both continue in their club positions where they have excelled this year. Having three centre backs inside them seems to suit both as they do both have some defensive frailties. I don't think Ryan Manning could ever be an international quality left back but the left wing back position seems to suit him a lot better. So again, depth in both wing back positions.
Central midfield is still a three so no change there either way really. Up front the formation probably doesn't suit the likes of Connolly who I see as being better on the left of a three man forward line so that's potentially a drawback. Otherwise I couldn't see Long having an issue playing it and McGoldrick already plays the system at club level.
I think Kenny will be sticking with 4-3-3 to start with but, while it's harder to chop and change at international level than with a club team, I still think it would be worth looking at 3-5-2 at some stage as it might be a useful alternative for us.
Is Egan not almost always at the centre of the three centre backs?
Absolutely, remains a useful alternative. But I think we focus far too much on the defensive side of our squad rather than the attacking. The 4-3-3 system has huge advantages for what's coming through in Irish football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Imagine a forward line of Connolly - Long - Obafemi, or alternatively Connolly - Idah - McGoldrick.
You have midfield options in abundance. Molumby - McCarthy - Hendrick, Hourihane - Byrne - Browne, Smallbone - Cullen - Arter.
Instead of focusing on what strong 3 man centre halves we have, make them all fight for two places. Ensure there's a fight between Coleman and Doherty for right back, Stevens/Brady/Manning for left back.
Currently, the only thing that worries me is our goalkeeping situation as Randolph has been frozen out of the West Ham team since joining. Travers isn't getting game time, Westwood seems to have dropped off the face of the planet, O'Hara has an uncertain future, and the rest of the available goalkeepers are still effectively youth team players.
Coleman could be included in the central 3 as an option or as a back-up to Doherty, which would increase our depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Our 4-3-3 isn't really a 4-3-3 when we played under Mick as already stated, McGoldrick was very isolated in the games he played for us. Mainly the system would allow us to get the most out of our strengths and our best player in Doherty.
YepQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
3-5-2 in my mind is the hardest system to implement. It requires time and repetition. Particularly in international football, you just don’t get the time to really drill the system into players and there’s probably more fluctuations from game to game with players injured, losing form etc than there would be at club level.
Defensively: It requires good decision making and mobility from your left and right centre halves. They’ll get pulled into the gaps that the fullback normally covers and it’s easy to concede and get torn apart and overstretched if you’re making the wrong decisions. Clark definitely has the mobility and speed to play as one of the wide centre halves, Duffy you’d imagine would have to play in the centre as he’s the least able to turn quickly and the centre would probably suit as he’s the best organiser. Egan probably also suits the centre best but probably would be able to slide across. You’d really have to question how good Coleman would be playing right of centre, would he give you more than Egan or Duffy or Clarke?
At worst, with a badly prepared side against an intelligent and fluid opposition, it’s like against Mexico in that Friendly in 2017. (Totally overwhelmed, trying to put out fires everywhere)
It requires legs from the wing backs, there is a huge owness (spelling?) on them to get up and down the pitch all game, to both be a support for the midfielders, attackers and cover for the defenders.
Less of a concern for us, as we know that both Stevens and Doherty are comfortable there...
If things don’t go well or the side is lacking confidence, that 3-5-2 quickly becomes 5-3-2. See late late era O’Neill - 0-0 v Denmark, home and away, 0-1 v Wales. And it becomes the most defensive of systems. Centre halves demanding cover from the wing backs, camped in our own half etc etc.
You obviously take wingers out of selection. 5 years ago, you’d worry about McClean being removed from the equation - but we probably have less true quality natural wingers at the moment than in any time recently. One of the biggest mistakes managers make in this system is shoehorning wingers into the centre to facilitate their inclusion. See that same game against Mexico: Christie and McClean as wing backs, Hourihane, Horgan and O’Dowda in the centre!
When 4-4–2 was in vogue, the one advantage that 3-5-2 gave was the extra man in midfield which made it much more easy to control the midfield. But 4-3-3 kinda negates that. I guess maybe going man for man up top, or having a free roaming player like McGoldrick sometimes does for Sheffield.
Given the overall lack of goals that we score, I’m not really sure removing one attacking player is ideal. I’d probably be of the belief that, in the 70% of games where both players are available, you’re better either one or the other. And if Stevens is injured or suspended, you either play Brady or Coleman or Doherty on the left.
You would worry. The only positive is that Randolph has played well in the past with reduced game time. Maybe Westwood or Elliott could establish themselves at a good championship club next season. Don’t think that’s unreasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Don’t think any of Travers, O’Hara, Kelleher or Talbot have eradicated the mistakes of youth from their game. If it was me, from what I’ve seen, I’d be looking at Sean McDermott and Max O’Leary as backups to Randolph. I haven’t seen a huge amount of their games but they were both very impressive in the games that I’ve seen.
Why would you refer to a Mick McCarthy setup of 4-3-3 when talking about a different manager with an entirely different setup, different mainframe, and a more positive outlook in terms of how to set up his squad?Quote:
Originally Posted by ColourfulPeanut
McCarthy, O'Neill, and Trap all approached games with Ireland as "we don't have the players". Kenny will go into games as he has done with Dundalk in Europe, and the under-21s, with the positive opinion of "why can't we go at them?"
I think we'veQuote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
A few people here have referred to Ireland managers recently picking players only to sabotage that player with where they have been selected. McGoldrick is an example of this. He is a lovely football, very clever, and is clearly the one player tasked with making things happen under the last manager. the problem was selecting him as a 9. He's best placed to dropping back to receive the ball and running at the space between midfield and defence. Selecting as the totem, automatically put us on the back foot. It's one of the most frustating selection policies of recent times. It was akin to tieing an arm behind a boxers back.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
When have we ever played a true 4-3-3? We've never done it. We always revert to a 4-5-1. Agree completely with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I don't think we need to go 3-5-2. And I don't think we will. Am I correct in saying that 3 teams play that formation in the PL- Wolves Sheffield United and Brighton? It just so happens that Doherty and Stevens are two of the 6 first choice options at the three clubs.[/QUOTE]
Super post. I would debate some of it, but it's a class post.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I've furrowed a lone plough on this. We've a blind spot with goalkeepers, and have had for a long while in my opinion. We see the spectacular saves, but the nuts and bolts....Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I'll just say this. I think Darren Randolph is the reason for a lot of our woes in the last couple of years. I've no axe to grind, I don't dislike him, but for me his positioning is poor, he's weak in the box, and we've conceded some very poor goals. That aside, the biggest gripe I have, is that he forces us 10-15 yds further back the pitch, than up the pitch, and it kills us. It drags the midfield further back to keep the link with defence, and then a knock-on effect on the teams overall position. And when you're a team that constantly gives the ball to the opposition, that 15 yd retreat is a killer. I'm not making this up, I'm not imagining it, look at games over the last 5 years. It's not about having our keeper becoming Ederson or spraying balls around the pitch, but it's about being that bit more aggressive in the set-up. This is something that Kenny has implemented with the 21s, and I'm certain it will continue.
Agree totally nidge. Kenny has spoken of this a lot. but ironically I think it's this mentality, aligned with what he's mentioned about some of our players already, that leads me to think he couldQuote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
As I (think I) said earlier, he's going to look to get the best from Doherty and Stevens. They both play in wide-roles, although Doherty is a touch more advanced than Stevens. Assuming he plays to this, he's either going to go with a 3-5-2, or possibly a 3-4-3.
My logic for the 3 defenders - and I will concede happily that he's never played that style before (maybe a bit with Bohs in the EUropean season) - is that he clearly wants us on the ball and to be more aggressive in taking the game to the opposition. Any time I've seen us attempt a 3 at the back, it hasn't been accompanied by a game-plan to keep the football. We have some good footballing options at the back, and one who is glaringly unsuitable to it. Stevens, Egan and Coleman are all adept at taking the ball out from the back.
Seamus simply isn't able to get up and down the pitch to the extent that Stephen Kenny is going to want from his full-backs. The fact that he nailed his colours to the mast on day one and called him captain suggests to me he's going to be a starter, and that's fine by me.
The overriding concern with this current Irish team is goals. Kenny has to resolve keeping solidity at the back, with fashioning chances and getting us playing further up the pitch together as a team. We simply don't score enough goals as a team, nor do we have a player at any level who is banging them in. Adam Idah is a goalscorer. Matt Doherty is someone who gets into positions to score goals, and is a throwback to players. I think it's fair to think how he's going to set up to get the most from players who can get goals from the team.
I probably have derailed this thread a bit considering it was about the influx of young players.
There's an awful lot of debate here about the merits of 3-5-2 vs 4-3-3. It's all very interesting, but there is a best of both worlds option that should be considered. Especialy with the players we have.
3-4-3
------------------ Randolph -----------------
----- Coleman ---- Duffy ----- Egan -------
Doherty - Molumby - Hourihane - Stevens
---- Obafemi - McGoldrick - Connolly -----
We have an absolute abundance of riches with this system. We can name an entire 2nd XI where the reserves are arguably more experienced that the first XI
--------------- Travers --------------
---- Long --- Lenihan --- Clark ----
Christie - Hendrick - Cullen - Brady
-- O'Dowda - Hogan - Robinson ---
And we can still have the likes of Idah, Cullen, Browne, Smallbone, Manning, McClean and Byrne to call on even if none of the less obvious youth prospects make it.
When international football comes back, nobody will have either familiarity among their squad or an established group of players to fall back on. I think we should throw caution to the wind and pick a squad with only a handfull of players who need to shave every day. Everyone is going to be a year older, and nobody like facing youngsters at the best of times, never mind after a year long layoff when tactiucal systems have become foggy memories and old joints have had time to calcify.
I say let the kids have at it.
I think one of two things would happen with that 3-4-3 formation. Either 1) we'd play all out 3-4-3 and be overrun in midfield with too many wide players or 2) McGoldrick would drop back and play as a 10 - then it's effectively a 3-5-2 again.
I agree with this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
You and all the others misinterpreting players statements down through the years, with an unfounded belief of some foresight others didn't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Of the back 3 mentioned mostly on here, I am a little concerned about us getting caught for pace, bar coleman, who is 32 we dont have any real pace there. We do look setup to counter, but it reminds me of the way Kenny setup out in Cyprus with Dundalk that time and conceded 3 soft goals that shouldn't have been conceded.
I can't see any changes before the nations league in terms of new blood coming into the first 11. Perhaps if Mccarthy doesnt make it, midfield being forced Molumby could be thrown in, but all the murmurings from Kenny suggest that he is still looking at old hat. Arter seems to be doing ok at the moment, and if fulham were to go up hes back playing premiership football.
As YI said a lot of players mentioned there but none really ready, as most have now learnt this year with all the Parrot call ups being unwarranted really, and Connolly not having found his level, yet anyways.
One thing i have been thinking about is do many scouts go around the u21 championships looking at players? or is it seen as the last chance saloon?
Everything has its sell by date, every tactic or system has, and then gets reinvented or repurposed in another X number of years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I've got to say I don't agree with the Smallbone position. I know he'd be skipping the queue a bit to get capped but the bottom line is he's a dual national, not Irish born and playing in the Premier League so there is a risk of losing him.
Rice didn't appear to be a flight risk until he was, and then he left. Obafemi was correctly fast tracked into the Nations League squad last time to nullify the risk. We need to defend our position in these cases and the way to do that is to cap Smallbone in the autumn.
Kenny laid out his stall from the very first press conference in saying "I only want players who want to play for Ireland."Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
If Smallbone has a question of playing for England in his head, he won't be wanted. It'll be that simple. It's firmly putting the ball in his court and is the right decision. Fast-tracking a player into the squad and jumping over others in the process is not fair to already committed players. Smallbone has played a total of 5 Premier League games, two of them as a sub for a couple of minutes. His time will come.