lusk incident

it does nt matter if they had one gun or 10 , the fact they had one and within half a second could have killed an inosent person or a guard ,apparently what happened was two guys charged a gaurd and he shot them . with in the few seconds he had to react it would be impossible to see if both had guns .

in limerick there was a detective waiting in his car for armed bank robbers to show up when they did they opened fire with a sub machine gun into the gaurds car killing him , before he had time to get his seat belt off .

any one in posesion of a gun ( hand gun ,sawn off barrel,or sub machine gun ) is up to no good and should be shot before they shoot some one else

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

I would hate this too but it is a situation which is being taken advantage of. In a shopping centre in North Dublin criminals entered a travel agents in the middle of the day in front of everyone with sawn off shotguns and smacked the hammers on the tables to intimidate the girls while they got them to open the safe. The girls were so nervous they reset the time lock. These brazen lads then just exited the place in front of a crowd. As if that wasn't audacious enough they came back and robbed it in the night the next day. The amount of armed robberies is out of control. What can we do if people aren't playing fair?

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i beleive that was budget travel in donaghmede shopping centre? i was working across from the shop when it happened!

this has nothing to do with abbeylara.

armed robbers got what they deserved. i fully support the killing of armed robbers/thieves/joyriders etc

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Originally Posted by anto eile

this has nothing to do with abbeylara.

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I don't remember anyone saying it had.

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Originally Posted by anto eile

armed robbers got what they deserved. i fully support the killing of armed robbers/thieves/joyriders etc

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How noble and honourable.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

im just waiting for macy to say they hadnt been proven guilty by a jury though, so that they may have been innocent. :D

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Firstly, getting caught in the act is very different from the police building a possible case against somebody and charging them.

Secondly, why bother with courts at all, just let the Gard's dish out their own sort of justice as they feel fit. Anyone they arrest/charge must be guilty - as proven by every case they bring to court leading to conviction...

I'm not particularly sympathetic to these two, but if there is no enquiry into it then we're potentially going down a very dangerous road, especially as seems to be the case one of them shot didn't even have a gun.

It does not automatically follow that you think the Gardai were wrong if you want to see the incident investigated by an independent body.

It does not automatically follow that your are on the side of law & order when you welcome the death of two people.

Can I ask a few questions?
1. Do people want the Gardai to carry on in the same manner as the robbers, and simply dispense with the justice system? To equate sums of money with being as valuable as a life?
If your answers to those questions is yes, you need to really reflect long and hard on the type of society you will end up with.

2. Would people agree that this incident will not stop robberies taking place?
I would suggest that the answer is yes, robberies will continue.

3. Given robbers will still carry our raids, they will probably now also believe that Gardai are prepared to shoot them dead. Does anyone think that this puts ordinary unarmed Gardai and civilians, as well as armed response units like thos involved in this incident, in far greater danegr than before?
In a practical sense, don't people think that instead of having one handgun for a gang, it's probable that robbers will bring a lot more weapons with them, as they may believe that they may have to shoot their way out of a robbery?


4.Does anyone think that ALL Gardai may be seen as a threat to robber's lives, and they may be far more "pre-emptive" than before?
What about the situation that an armed robery is taking place. They see a Garda/Gardai on the beat, and while the Gardai may have no idea that a robbery is taking place, will the robbers feel threatened and feel they have to shoot first, thinking they may be shot at?

There is a good reason for the present justice system in "civilised" countries. It comes from thousands of years of experience that if you sink to the level of the criminal, then there is no law & order, no society and we are all the same.
It's fashionable these days to talk tough, spew out the old rubbish clichés about "die by the sword" etc. and we have in this country a "Justice" Minister who thinks his so-called hard man act is the way to carry out his duties.
Beware a populist who panders to the lowest common denominator, it drags us all down to the lowest level.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

The amount of hold ups and robberies as of late is incredibly disturbing. While I do not welcome the the death of anyone in these situations I am glad to see the Gardaí at least are taking some initiative to fight gang crime and received some intelligence on this one. An Taoiseach is correct that we, the public cannot get weak kneed when the Gardaí are trying to crack down on this. It is getting seriously out of hand.

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Agreed, it's happening a hell of a lote more these days, 3 armed robberies in Bray last week alone. One of which included an attempted armed robbery in the Calisle Grounds on Locker Davies.

I' dont agree with killing anyone for any reason, but as one of my cousins said (she works in a bank and has been held at gun point several times and struck on the head by a gun) that they deserved what they got, she said it is the most terrifying experience in life, someone shoving a shotgun in the middle of your face.............

i think the gardai showed that bank/post office raids are not a pushover any more.

i agree that they (the gardai) are no angels and have been heavy handed before as in the "free the streets" protest in dublin but i think they got it right on this occasion.

i feel little or no sympathy for the guys who perished.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I'm not particularly sympathetic to these two, but if there is no enquiry into it then we're potentially going down a very dangerous road, especially as seems to be the case one of them shot didn't even have a gun.

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I agree. No sympathy for thier deaths but the Guards have to be accountable. This is once again another reason we should have a Garda Ombudsman. Wetold the PSNI they have to have one but have second standards here. Ombudsman Office could easily investigate incidents like this without need for separate enquiries.

The ERU seem to be lose cannons. Just because they are trained by the FBI doesn't mean they should act like them with shoot first ask questions later policy.

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Originally Posted by pete

The ERU seem to be lose cannons. Just because they are trained by the FBI doesn't mean they should act like them with shoot first ask questions later policy.

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Suggest they asked the question first alright: 'Why is one of these low life is carrying a gun?
Answer: 'At best, to frighten or intimidate the people they were going to rob or at worst, to use it if they meet any resistance'
Conclusion: 'Take the fu*kers out before they injure or kill someone'

Anyone carrying a gun in the process of commiting a crime is fair game to be shot themselves by the law enforcers.

Surely its in the interest of the Gardai to have an independent inquest in cases like this? This is the only way that they will be able to protect their good name, especially if a case arises like the one in the UK when the man with a table/chair? leg was shot dead.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Anyone carrying a gun in the process of commiting a crime is fair game to be shot themselves by the law enforcers.

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But one of them wasn't carrying a gun.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Conclusion: 'Take the fu*kers out before they injure or kill someone'

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An idiotic way to run a POLICE service. If had it that way Police would just be like organised crime themselves.

Absolute power corrupts which why the Garda need to be accountable.

Something seriously wrong if the Gardai cannot criminakls whose schedule they know of in advance.

Another two scumbags less in the country. A job well done Gardai.

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Originally Posted by Magoo

this has nothing to do with abbeylara

I don't remember anyone saying it had.

i support the killing of armed robbers/joyriders etc

How noble and honourable.

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1: then why the hell was abbeylara mentioned??
2: the scum get what they deserve.and the more scum taken out then the safer the streets are for the rest of us

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Originally Posted by patsh

It's fashionable these days to talk tough, spew out the old rubbish clichés about "die by the sword" etc. and we have in this country a "Justice" Minister who thinks his so-called hard man act is the way to carry out his duties.

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I think this reaction is human nature, the rest of us try and live lawfully and go about our lives trying to earn a crust. Then you have these scum going about doing what they like.
Do you think these guys gave 2 hoots about the "justice system" in a civilised country. Without the 2 of these vermin I believe it makes our country a bit more civilised.

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Originally Posted by anto eile

1: then why the hell was abbeylara mentioned??

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Having high level commonalities does not necessarily mean they are related incidents. Merely analogous references were made. Of course, many jumped on the "how could you be so heartless to compare them?" bandwagon. I may be wrong but it appeared your comments were of a similar background.

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Originally Posted by anto eile

2: the scum get what they deserve.and the more scum taken out then the safer the streets are for the rest of us

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Let's lynch all the young drivers as well... and anyone caught speeding for that matter. That would make the streets safer too.

I think patsh is on to something when he says (paraphrasing) that this kind of thing just raises the ante for all concerned.

Whatever about my lack of sympathy for the two dead armed robbers the fact remains that if a message is sent out to criminal gangs that they are going to be issued with summary justice it's going to make these cnuts more likely to shoot first and ask questions later. That means more dead innocent civilians, more dead gardai and will lead to a spiral of gun violence that will itself lead to calls for the re-introduction of the death penalty for cop killers.

As for the person who said it should be acceptable for the cops to shoot joyriders -can I just say I think joyriders are absolute scum -BUT I'll remind you we all rightly condemned the Norths security forces -and in particular their parachute regiment -when they'd a brazenly open "shoot to kill" policy towards joyriders.

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Originally Posted by Macy

But one of them wasn't carrying a gun.

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Was he just going into the PO for a stamp then?

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Originally Posted by pete

An idiotic way to run a POLICE service. If had it that way Police would just be like organised crime themselves.

Absolute power corrupts which why the Garda need to be accountable.

Something seriously wrong if the Gardai cannot criminakls whose schedule they know of in advance.

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You cannot arrest someone and charge them with 'intent to commit armed robbery' unless you have cast iron proof of the intent. No doubt they were acting on tip-off, probably from another crim, who would have no intentions of giving evidence about intent. So even if the Gardai knew of their intent, how would they prove it?

The only effective way to catch them is 'in the act' and then take them into custody. If there is resistance, as there appear to have been in this case, there are not many options left to the Gardai only to 'take them out'.

Effective policing I would say and hopefully a deterrent to the next little toe rag who is considering going to do a job 'tooled up' or going with someone else who is.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Was he just going into the PO for a stamp then?

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No, but he wasn't going to shoot a cop was he?