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Call me pedantic if you want, but I don't see how you can agree with Éanna's definition when it's literally wrong by definition. What ye should be saying (imho) is that you don't believe that there's any organised or premeditated hooliganism in Ireland.
That's unless you believe there's a conspiracy in Collins, Oxford and Merriam-Webster of course, and have decided to forgoe dictionaries because of it. I take my dictionary's word for it, and it says there's soccer hooligans in Ireland.
adam
Fair enough. But when I think of hooliganism, I think of people going out with the intention of looking for, if not actually causing, trouble. There is a big difference between that and any kind of spontaneous hassle which occurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
One thing is for sure though- none of the organised groups (Ultras, commandos 84 etc) have any role to play in any form of violence in irish football. that one should be nailed on the head any time its mentioned
By this definition could also say there are hooligans on the streets of irish cities (any fight on the street at night) & also GAA hooligans (when fans have attacked referees at county club games).Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Not trying to be funny here Pete, but what would you call these people then?Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Scumbags, thugs, gurriers, and plenty more besides. I always associate the word "hooligan" with some element of organisation/premeditation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Smith
I could, I do. Seriously, I think you guys have been misled with this word somehow. But don't take my word for it, look it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
adam
I just always associate the word hooligan with intent/pre-meditation, butI've looked at the dictionary and seen what it says:Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
"a violent young troublemaker, typically one of a gang"
Might just be me, but "one of a gang" suggests a level of organisation and intent to me.
I'd agree with that ... the word hooligan actually comes from a drunken Irish emigrant who, it seems caused a considerable amount of public disorder at some stage in London, around 200 years ago. The incident was so bad that is was referred to as a case study and other similar offenders were given the title hooligan to denote the level of their behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
Yes ... the word hooligan in the dictionary and else where would mean scum, thug, browl, idiot and fúckwit but i'd agree with Eanna. The word hooligan now has a more specific meaning, irrespective of its meaning in the dictionary and that would be of an guy looking for organised, premeditated violence and it is normally associated with football hooligans, guys that have no interest in football whatsoever, who have the IQ of a brick and are a bi-product of all the failings of society and community breakdown. A cancer in the community !!
The groups in this country that claim to be firms are laughable. They wouldn't last 2 minutes up against the English firms they try to emmulate.
To me the problem in this country is one of security and policing rather than anything else. If there were proper stewards and proper police the number of incidents would be non-existant in this country.
I'll use my favourite example - the whole of the eL community would know that Doyles Corner is the big flashpoint at Bohs v Rovers games. The policing there has ranged from the pathetic to the non-existant in recent years when there's been trouble at those games. One game (last season?) there were over 100 of the riot squad in the ground, and one gard on doyles corner - guess where the trouble was :rolleyes:
Just to correct the misconception - Casuals aren't necessarily into violence either (but most hooligans would be casuals).
I thought they were all types of underpants
Incredible amount of misinformed rubbish lads. :(
Speical prize to Aido B for hysterical nonsense. Aido - soccerc and other journalists rang the Garda press ofiice and Whithall and Santry stations at the time, they all denied your story.
For some history on the Ultra movement try here - http://www.supertifo.it/
For some history on casual culture try this - www.terraceretro.com
As Macy says being into terrace culture and "casualism" doesn't mean you're into football violence. For instance I'm obsessed with terrace and casual culture from the early eighties onwards - clothes, music etc etc but I'm not a football hooligan. I'm also a member of the SRFC Ultras and again it doesn't mean that I'm into football violence.
A lot of people mistake hardcore fandom (both casual and ultra) for hooliganism. Not true, in fact you'll find at most clubs in the UK that a large proportion of travelling fans are casuals and in Italy they're ultras.
KOH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
So, are there groups in this country that claim to be firms?
Due respect WAR, you're doing precisely what you're accusing others of now. Nobody here has even come close to suggesting that being a member of an Ultras or Casual group makes them "into" violence. What they have suggested - or rather I've suggested and some have agreed, or not agreed - is that there is an association between some groups and soccer violence, and that association can tarnish innocent groups.
Aido B gave just one example, however I've linked a couple of Google searches earlier on in the thread, follow those if you don't believe me. You may not like it, but the association exists.
adam
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Cant argue with that !!
Don't disagree with your fisrt par but my point is that googling and listening to people like Aido B will just give you the wrong impression. Aido B's assertions are nonsense, they were back then and they are now. That's the problem with the internet - an innocent google will give you half of any story at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
KOH
You won't get any argument from me on that point WAR. Fiver says I'm not the only one that has the wrong impression though...
adam
The problem I have and I don't want to attack the poster is that his original "assertion" fully reseached and documented is untrue.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
The poster then backtracked claiming a mistake. However, it is supposed to be from a thesis and yet one vital piece of "evidence" has been shown to be untrue at the least.
At then time I contacted as did others both the Garda Press office and the local stations who denied any arrests associated with the game or indeed if there had been any arrests in the area of Tolka Park that afternoon.
My fiver's safe because I know you're right and won't be taking you up on your offer of a wager.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
KOH
that is down to garda resourcing, and the simple fact is, if the garda siochalonie dont get enough money from the EL for policing they wont do it!!!!!!Quote:
I'll use my favourite example - the whole of the eL community would know that Doyles Corner is the big flashpoint at Bohs v Rovers games. The policing there has ranged from the pathetic to the non-existant in recent years when there's been trouble at those games. One game (last season?) there were over 100 of the riot squad in the ground, and one gard on doyles corner - guess where the trouble was
all you have to do is look at a gaa match 200 yards down the road and you see that "yes" they can be organised....
The point is that there were enough garda at the game but they were all in the wrong place