terrible road accidents in dublin & cork

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Originally Posted by joey B

While I agree that bad drivers is a huge contributing factor to road deaths,its a bit naive to state that speed dose'nt kill.

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Not so. Think about it- in Germany you can do any speed you want on the Autobahn, because the roads are good and the drivers are good. Its all about appropriate driving- a good driver knows what speed to do based on the conditions (road, weather, traffic etc).

Pick any road you want in this country, and then get several people to drive at the same speed on it- I guarantee you some of them would be more likely to crash than others, because they aren't good drivers. Obviously there has to be some rule, you can't just say "oh he's a good driver, let him do whatever speed he wants" but its the drivers that are ultimately responsible.

e.g. when I was living in Limerick for college, I got lifts up from Cork from a number of people I knew. One girl who I used to get lifts from occasionally NEVER broke the speed limit, yet came closer to crashing more than any of the other people I travelled with, all of whom broke the speed limit- why? Because she didn't concentrate properly and she wasn't a good driver. Still passed her test though :rolleyes:

Any country that lets you do a driving test, fail it and then drive home has to be considered a joke.

Teach people how to drive not teach them how to pass a test, we do it in school in and in driving, doesn't matter as long as there is no failing..... mad

Most European countries make you sit a second part of the course 6 months afer, where the teach you breaking distances, how to control a skid different road conditions etc, all of these they teach you and then make you do them as well, none of it is in a class room it is done as a practical lesson.

Learn to Drive pass the test and be aware of others not too much to ask.

(pete, he's talking about the National Rifle Association, not the National Roads Authority. (See NRA Disambiguation.) Although I can't argue with the assertion that they're clueless. "Criminal" would be the word I'd use though.)

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Arguing that excessive speed isn't as big a problem as is made out is as disingenuous as the "guns don't kill people -people kill people" argument put forward by the NRA.

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Which is the standard response to my argument. Here's my standard response to your standard response:

Yes, the risk is higher, but that does not equal "speed kills". It means "the risk is higher". The Speed Kills campaign is pure, unadulterated sensationalism and FUD popularised by marketroids and swallowed whole by the gullible.

adam

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

To just say something like 'get provisional drivers' off the road is dumb.. How are they going to learn to drive in the first place if there is no provisional licence system.. They do need a full licenced driver in the car beside them also.

The problem is people are not being turned from provisional licence to full licence fast enough as the queue's are unreal!

And as for insurance prices that is another day's rant...

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How are they going to learn? Same as in other countries- by doing lessons with a qualified instructor, and then doing the test. As for needing a licenced driver in the car with them- thats all well and good in theory, but we all know it doesn't happen. I waited 13 months for my test, needed to get to work, so I drove on my own- never stopped.

I agree 100% that the waiting lists are the real problem, but thats no excuse for having unqualified drivers on the road. Insurance prices are a joke, but have come down a lot in the last 2 years in fairness

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Originally Posted by Dricky

Any country that lets you do a driving test, fail it and then drive home has to be considered a joke.

Teach people how to drive not teach them how to pass a test, we do it in school in and in driving, doesn't matter as long as there is no failing..... mad

Most European countries make you sit a second part of the course 6 months afer, where the teach you breaking distances, how to control a skid different road conditions etc, all of these they teach you and then make you do them as well, none of it is in a class room it is done as a practical lesson.

Learn to Drive pass the test and be aware of others not too much to ask.

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that just about sums it up. Hard to blame the drivers themselves- they're not breaking the law, its the law that's wrong.

As someone who does most of his travelling on a bicycle (just learning to drive at 39!) let me tell you that some of the most ignorant, dangerous gob*****s that are on the roads are not learners. Its a lack of consideration for / awareness of others that is the mark of a really bad driver (IMHO) and a culture of jumping/rushing lights which is the primary danger in the city. These are hardly traits confined to learners. Its easier/more popular to run a "speed kills" campaign than to say "there are too many inconsiderate/bad drivers out there - and you are probably one of them".
People need to be pulled-up and fined for bad driving - hit people in their pockets and they might change their ways.

A a rule of thumb I try to avoid people who drive in hats - boy racers and senile old people are bad news...

The North offers interesting parallels on Road Safety. The accident rate in the Six Counties has been a lot lower than the South for as long as I can remember, even though it's roughly the same type of people driving on both sides of the border (i.e. no great 'cultural' difference in driving).

This leads me to conclude that 2 key factors may be at play :

1) State of roads
Roads in the North have always been far superior to those in the south. Increasingly less so as time goes on, but still better IMO even now. Much more motorways, few (if any) potholes; few of the windy, twisty country roads that every county down south seems to be plagued with.

2) Driver training.
Southern drivers have always had a very bad rep up North for driving like maniacs. I'm not sure how much of that was just northern smugness/anti-southern attitudes, but even in a town like Derry - with no anti-southern axe to grind - drivers from the Republic have had a bad rep for as long as I can remember. The north has none of this 'drive whilst a learner' nonesense, and no big queue for driving tests. I'd also suggest that the pre-license training drivers have to receive in the North could well be better than in the south - hence having an impact on people's road behaviour (though as I never learnt to drive down south, I can't really judge).

In reality, there won't be one single reason why the south has had such an atrocious road safety record for years. But the fact that the same set of people on different sides of a political border produce such widely differing road safety stats suggests the above 2 issues may lie somewhere at the source of the problem.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Southern drivers have always had a very bad rep up North for driving like maniacs.

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In fairness, the opposite attitude holds here. People are always moaninng about Northern drivers driving at crazy speeds when they come over the border.

The thing that really gets me is how people just cant follow the basic simple rules and then cause fcuk ups.

Roundabout like, they're not difficult yet every time I go through the Kinsale, Sarsfiled and Wilton ones there is ALWAYS someone on them who just doesnt have a clue how they work and what lane they should be in.

Dont forget drink can be a big factor, people have a few drinks get into their car and then their judgement goes wrong. They cant keep track of what speed they are doing and their ability to judge distance goes wrong too. Same with drugs

Ok I went out last night to drive from my house to my girlfriend. I got to the Navan Road and just came off the motorway and a car, a souped up Mini, tore around the roundabout and came onto the road and as I looked in my rear mirrors, the driver must of reached over 100 miles an hour and overtook me IN THE HARD SHOULDER. They tore down the road causing plenty of cars to swirve. Now sorry for cursing, that driver is a f*cking idiot. Clear and simple and as much as I couldn't care if they died, they could take out an innocent.

On the same trip, I had cars up my ass on country roads when I was doing the speed limit. People fail to realise you need "braking distance". Brakes don't stop cars they slow them down and when a car is up your ass, and you need to brake suddenly, there will be one outcome. They will go flat into the back of you.

People are pure irresponsible and think they are super drivers as they cruise round at crazy speeds. It takes an accident to cop them on, if they survive it. Its not educating people to drive thats the problem, its educating people to think!!!

Drink limit should be zero. Pure and simple. If I can prove ONE person is affected on judgement by having a glass of beer then that is enough in my eyes to have a limit of zero. I could be a 20 stone heavy drinker who says they could drink 10 pints and still be unaffected, so what!! Its not about the individual, its about a nationally enforced rule and if an 18 year old having his first pint of beer gets hammered on it, he would be still under the legal limit to drive. Add to that diet during the day and tiredness levels and drink can effect you in small amounts. Does anyone agree limits should be Zero?

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Originally Posted by Gareth

Drink limit should be zero. Pure and simple. If I can prove ONE person is affected on judgement by having a glass of beer then that is enough in my eyes to have a limit of zero. I could be a 20 stone heavy drinker who says they could drink 10 pints and still be unaffected, so what!! Its not about the individual, its about a nationally enforced rule and if an 18 year old having his first pint of beer gets hammered on it, he would be still under the legal limit to drive. Add to that diet during the day and tiredness levels and drink can effect you in small amounts. Does anyone agree limits should be Zero?

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Wouldn't work in a country like Ireland where large chunks of the population are in rural areas. It was tried before with the limit that made it just less than one pint, and every farmer in Ireland was up in arms.

In many rural parts of Ireland, the only social facility available is the pub, and there are no taxis or public transport. Why begrudge isolated farmers, after a hard day on the land, of their only pleasure in life - driving to the pub for a pint - and their only way of meeting people during their busy work periods ? The vast majority of people abide by drink-driving rules (or at least don't break them to any significant degree), and as far as I'm aware drink is not to blame in more than a small number of accidents here. The law should therefore not disadvantage those ordinary decent people as a draconian way of stopping the stubborn/regular drink-drivers. Sledgehammers to crack nuts, and all that....

Organise a couple of farmers to pick each other up!! Car pool!! Plus I think we should have way more speed cameras. On most roads.

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Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Its a lack of consideration for / awareness of others that is the mark of a really bad driver

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Absolutely spot on there. You can drive at speed (even over the speed limit) IF you are aware of what is going on around you, and drive safely. Its when people pay little or no attention, or just don't care what goes on- thats when things get angry.

As for boy racers- if people want to drive race cars, why can't they do it on a ****ing race track? :rolleyes:

[start rant]

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

(pete, he's talking about the National Rifle Association, not the National Roads Authority. (See NRA Disambiguation.) Although I can't argue with the assertion that they're clueless. "Criminal" would be the word I'd use though.)

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I wouldn't disagree with you there. I always bring up the crash barriers issue cos it was the most ludicrous of the NRA "policies". They defended it for years (as i said turned out to be absed on old US studies) & now suddenly they retro fitting motorways with the wire cables. Any notice that watergrasshill dualcarraigeway was never retro fitted with any barriers? Can any answer that one? :rolleyes:

Question:
Whats the difference between a motorway & motorway-like dualcarraigeway in this country? I;m sure most people can think of a 2 lane road with exit & on ramps that is classified as a dualcarraigeway. Why? :confused:
In the Uk basically 2 lanes = dualcarraigeway, 3 = motorway.

Saw big of de Minister fer State on prime Time tonight. He was asked if he considered sate of irisg trucks a crises after the Uk said irish trucks the worst on their roads. He said irish trucks are tested like NCT & believed "UK were overstating issue" He thoiught that tests may not be very good or anything.

[pause rant]

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Originally Posted by pete

Question:
Whats the difference between a motorway & motorway-like dualcarraigeway in this country? I;m sure most people can think of a 2 lane road with exit & on ramps that is classified as a dualcarraigeway. Why? :confused:
In the Uk basically 2 lanes = dualcarraigeway, 3 = motorway.

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AFAIK, it has something to do with the length of road- i.e. it has to be a certain minimum number of miles/kms of dual cariageway without any breaks (e.g. roundabouts) before it can be classified a motorway- I think its an EU thing :rolleyes:

Should be noted that the speed limit on a UK dual carriageway is 70mph, same as a motorway, where national speed limit applies.

The focus on speed is convenient to cover the revenue collected by fish in a barrell speed trap tatics by the guards. I haven't seen one speed check in the 18 months I've been commuting the 25 miles into dublin on the most dangerous stretch of road. I've seen plenty on the motorway and various dual carriageways (3 or 4 a week), but not one on the single carriageway country roads (that includes a point where people go over a ditch every couple of months on a bad bend).

Jim, lest we lay the blame at current provisional licence holders, I would also add in the people who got licences through the various "amnesty's" that were used to clear the test lists in the past....

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Originally Posted by Macy

Jim, lest we lay the blame at current provisional licence holders, I would also add in the people who got licences through the various "amnesty's" that were used to clear the test lists in the past....

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The amnesties were a crazy idea right enough.
An even crazier story is that years ago a friend of mine was going to the States and thought she better get another form of ID other than her passport so she got a provisional license - she had never set foot in a car as a driver. On getting there she was advised to convert her provisional license to a US one. Now a provisional license there apparently meant that you could drive provided you were you glasses - you get some sort of code here on your license - so they exchanged her Irish provisional license for a full US one. On returning here she then exchanged the US license for a full Irish one. Net result was someone with a full license who had never sat behind the wheel of a car in her life :eek:

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

The North offers interesting parallels on Road Safety. The accident rate in the Six Counties has been a lot lower than the South for as long as I can remember, even though it's roughly the same type of people driving on both sides of the border (i.e. no great 'cultural' difference in driving).

This leads me to conclude that 2 key factors may be at play :

1) State of roads
Roads in the North have always been far superior to those in the south. Increasingly less so as time goes on, but still better IMO even now. Much more motorways, few (if any) potholes; few of the windy, twisty country roads that every county down south seems to be plagued with.

2) Driver training.
Southern drivers have always had a very bad rep up North for driving like maniacs. I'm not sure how much of that was just northern smugness/anti-southern attitudes, but even in a town like Derry - with no anti-southern axe to grind - drivers from the Republic have had a bad rep for as long as I can remember. The north has none of this 'drive whilst a learner' nonesense, and no big queue for driving tests. I'd also suggest that the pre-license training drivers have to receive in the North could well be better than in the south - hence having an impact on people's road behaviour (though as I never learnt to drive down south, I can't really judge).

In reality, there won't be one single reason why the south has had such an atrocious road safety record for years. But the fact that the same set of people on different sides of a political border produce such widely differing road safety stats suggests the above 2 issues may lie somewhere at the source of the problem.

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steve is right, we had the same in fermanagh and tyrone, the south always had a bad reputation for bad drivers, fast and crazy, i used to sh!t myself going to Dublin airport /Dublin on many occasions. Nutters overtaking at any given moment, however being in Poland a couple of times recently makes Ireland look safe, there, they overtake when a car is coming in the opposite direction and u are expected to move into the hard shoulder to let the car pass all the time!!! SImilar things between these countries, bad roads! few motorways = people always in a hurry. Leave earlier!!!! :mad:

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Originally Posted by kerr's tribe

Leave earlier!!!! :mad:

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Best bit of advice on here yet.

It's ironic that both northern and southern drivers view each other as bad or dangerous drivers.
There's another very important north south comparison and contrast that neatly puts to the sword the myth that our roads are responsible for high fatalities here.
Any time roads in the south are compared with the north I've heard people conclude that the norths roads on their own make a stong case for maintaining the Union.

Yet we are chucking people out through the windscreen of existence pro-rata between the two jurisdictions.