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Sorry dcfcsteve, but I thought you would have picked up the sarcasm there with the specific reference to 'Prime Minister' rather than 'the last time an Israeli Jew blew up a plane?' Sounds like you're still recovering, hombre. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I know Claudio Gentile was a dirty fcuker, but is this not a bit harsh ?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
You've won me over now. ;)Quote:
I mean, Israel is taking part of Eurovision since 1973
Your translation is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shae_B2D
except for a totally wrong construction of my sentence there.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
(and I'm kinda scared to ask).
Does that mean you actually READ all the way down and survived??Quote:
Your translation is fine.
Shae B2D,
There's too much in your last big post to respond to it all bit by bit.
Unless I'm reading your sentiments incorrectly, you seem to be asserting the view of 'whatever Isarel does to ensure its security is fine by me, as long as it stops/reduces terrorist activities'.
At first sight this seems a perfectly reaosnable posiiton to take. However, if this is the case then I think you've also missed the point of my previous posts.
I'm not for one minute suggesting that the state of Israel should be more lax in its security operations. But my point is that there is a level of security beyond which safety is no longer improved by any significant degree, and the only outcome is therefore disruption and alienation amongst those the security is directed against. As I said previously, I believe this line was crossed with me on my flight on Saturday.
Your responses seem to suggest that if I had been asked to stand on my head and drink a pint of water whilst singing 'La Bamba' at Eilat airport then that would've been fine, as I'm not to know the deeper reasons why they certain questions or actions - all I need to know is that tight security is needed to protect Israel, so anything they request is fair. But that extreme examples shows that not everything the security ask or do may necessarily have an impact upon the level of security.
You could even argue that, by pushing the level of security/questioning beyond the point at which it no longer makes any contribution to safety, the security of Israel is actually being jeopardised. Individuals are actually being alienated and becoming embittered by Israel's actions (as a number of people on this site have personally commented). This therefore makes them less likely to cooperate openly and fully with the authorities at airports etc (which was my attitude 10hrs later at Ben Gurion airport), which actually reduces the effectiveness of the security operations. It can therefore be counter-productive for the nation's security. It also increases international ill-will towards Israel, which creates seeds in which activities prejudicial to the country's security can grow. There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people every year flying in and out of Israel who, like me, leave the country feeling they've been treated badly by security - either as an individual or as a Gentile. That's many thousands of people walking around who have had a direct and negative experience with the authorities of your state, who to varying degrees will now harbour a grudge against Isareli authorities. That has obvious dangers. You can say we shouldn't take it personally, but clearly from this thread lots of people do.
And I still stand by my observations that the level of interrogation Gentiles recieve by far surpasses that for Jews - regardless of whether that is due to superior intelligence on them or not, it still looks suspect.
You can choose to ignore what I'm saying here, but the above are simple facts. Israeli security has the serious potential to create greater problems for your country on the occassions when it seemingly or actually crosses the line of reason.
And could that construction be a WALL built by a subsidary of an Irish publicly quoted company?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shae_B2D
I'm, by no means, try to ignore what you say. I think that being an Israeli obviousely gives me a different opinion on that, for the simple reason that I'm so used to live with that security, I can't really imagine how it feels for someone who hasn't been living it for his entire life. I do agree that to some extent, the security measures sometime go overboard, but I have to be honest and admit I don't really know where to draw the line. You said that by my point of view, since it's for security, everything they do is fine by me. Well, it's not, but to tell you the truth? there are many things there that I find being in a "Gray" zone. That said, I understand your frustration completly, it probably won't come as a shock to you to find out that you're not the first person I've heard saying such things, and I know that usually means that a problem exists, and I know it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
But as it happens, finding the perfect solution is hard, usually impossible, and in that case, I don't think you can just write down the answer to make it work. I don't work in security, so even as an Israeli I don't have the whole picture, which makes it hard for me to entirely be mad at that, at least not until I hear the entire reasoning behind such behavior. When I hear stories like yours it makes me mad, but I can't pick a side, really. I see the reason in the behavior of both sides, the security checks as well as the feelings of the guests being mistreated. I still think that you're taking it too personally, but at the same time I understand that only a person who really lives here can understand it's not and I don't expect our guests to understand that. I'm caught in the middle here, where would you draw the line? because, for example, I don't find nothing wrong in the questions you were asked, annoying as they were, it was just questions. On the other hand, while having to take your clothes off is very invasive, I've been through it too and I AM a jew, which contradicts your "jews aren't treated that way."
oh, and btw, while you're on that subject: I've got an American passport, my mom's got an Israeli one. Every time we enter a foreign country I get to walk through all the checks smoothly and quickly, while my mom is always being held up, checked, etc. I guess it works both ways, and it works that way anywhere, even with places less secured than ours.
I appreciate the fact you bothered to answer my big post. many people wouldn't. thank you.
i had no problem really with the lengthy security I just wanted to make it known that with all the effort made by the municipality and people in general to welcome us this had a negative effect. I would definitely go back again but i think others may think twice, especially regular tourists whom you are trying to attract and i think this should be a consideration and some thought should be given by the authorities to this subject.
We have a saying here " Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater "
An interesting debate none the less