Wegner/Ferguson

Utd were not knocked out in the 1st round last year they were knocked out in the 2nd round or last 16 if u will. this is the first time that this has happened for them in 6 or 7 years which was a European record whereas Arsenal have never come near winning the European Cup. U say Utd have not come near winning it since they won it but Arsenal have Never come near winning it.

Ferguson descrived what happened in the tunnel if anything he said wasn not true you would guarantee that Wenger and or Aresnal would have him up for defamation of character or at least contradict what happened. However Wenger has just said I belive nothing significant happened in the tunnel. Whenever Arsenal lose there is always some reason for it they never just lose but always blame something. This is not necessarily a bad thign as i think players should be bad losers but you can go overboard and throwing food at a manager is a terrible act.

Another thing that gets refused to mention in this. Many many mangers in England and throughout Europe are quiet friendly with Alex Ferguson

Harry Redknapp
Jim Smith
Peter Reid
Marcello Lipi
Gerard Houllier
George Graham
Alan Curbishly
Steve Mc Claren
Walter Smith

and he at least has the decency to have a drink with the opposing manager after the game. however Wenger is unpopular with other mangers and refuses to have the post match drink with the opposing manager. If Ferguson was such a ******** or a scumbag as people here have said do u you think all of the others would be friendly with him

And the current scraps with Arsenal are nothing compared to the late 80's and early 90's ones with Graham as manager...

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Alex Ferguson has won more trophies than any other British manager

He qualified for the quarter finals of the Champions leaugue 6/7 years on the trot. He has 3 European trophies to his name

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I still think Ferguson's European record is very poor, esp. compared to the likes of Cappello or even Otto Hitzfelt. Domestically he's done well, but in Europe he's had just one good season. When you consider the money spent, and players at his disposal he really should have done more in Europe. In the past 5 years Man Utd have been pretty poor in the Champions League, average teams have made it as far as the semi finals over the past 6/7 years (Leeds, Depor, Leverkusen all spring to mind), let alone the quarters (where you can start adding the likes of Panathinikos, Liverpool, Galatasaray, and one of Bremen/Lyon this season) so I don’t think getting there is a major bench mark of success. When you look at how many (or few) quality teams Man Utd have beaten home and away over the last 5 years in Europe its not a particularly impressive read.

Arsenal's record in Europe is worse, as are most other English teams, but United have passed the peak of their dominance (now they regularly have to go into the qualifiers of the CL) and many other European teams have better recent records.

The bottom line is Chelsea are the new top dogs domestically, and Morinho has already won as many Champions Leagues as Ferguson (ie one, but Morinho won it with a much cheaper team, and looks likely to win it again with Chelsea over the next few years).

Ferguson should have walked after the treble, he would have gone out on a high that way - but he hasn’t and he's frustrated hence the jibes with Wenger, and more recently his nouvelle bete noire, José Morinho. For his part Wenger is probably frustrated at the Arsenal's lack of money / inability to compete financially with the biggest European Clubs. Both of them are like bald men fighting over a comb.

And just to clarify I don’t support any Premier League team.

As far as I can make out the media have blown this Arsenal/Man U feud up big time over the years.It was never there in the 60's and 70's,started off in the late 80's,festered in the 90's and now we have the managers at it now.It has all been made up to satisfy the football public.Arsenals biggest/traditional rivals,Spurs, are not big enough to compete with them and ditto for Man U and Liverpool.

I agree english teams have a terrible record in europe since the Ban. However i was comparing Ferguson to Wenger which is the topic of the debate. In that regard Wenger can never be regarded as a Great manager as he has done nothing at European level. Ferguson did win the Cup Winners Cup with a regional team i.e. Aberdeen and winning the treble was a remarkable achievement hence it never been done before or since. Utd have reached the semis 3 times under his managership and they went out to Leverkeusen on away goals.

Capello has a great European track record as has Lippi other than that I think Fergusons compares favourable to contemporary mangers. Another thing that must be understood is that Ferguson is hated by the English journalist as he does not give them post match interviews. Joe Lovejoy was on Jimmy Hills supplment one day ans there was venom coming out of his mouth and it is generally agreed amongst most of the London based journalist that Ferguson is an ignorant man. However has i said before he is very popular amongst the mangers. I think i know which I woudl prefer to be popular amongst.

wow fergie is friends with all those managers, legend? This has a significance with what??

p.s. don't tell Fregie but Marcello Lippi is managing a team with his secret friend Arsene in aid of the Tsunami fund in the Nou Camp..........there may be trouble ahead.

I have never laughed so much - amazing how you know all about the personal friends of Sir Alex and if your not a manc, you should be - and I'm the one not being objective - reality check!!

The only facts we have from Old Trafford is that Ruud Van Nistelrooy was called a cheat and that Arsene Wenger was fined. The rest is pure subjective gutter newspaper ballix of half truths and rumours!

just for the friendship fanclub: Houllier and Wenger are best mates, Houllier presented him with his outstanding achievement award as 'MANAGER OF THE YEAR FOR 2004' the other nite and they talkied about their friendship and fun times together! Friendship is bliss!

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

. For his part Wenger is probably frustrated at the Arsenal's lack of money / inability to compete financially with the biggest European Clubs. Both of them are like bald men fighting over a comb.
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spot on - for all his lack of the massive budgets Utd have spent since Wengers appointment (28m on Veron, 30m on Rio, 30 on Rooney) Wenger's highest fee paid was 13 million for Wiltord up until Jose Reyes signed last January - that's just 1 million more than what Utd paid for a teenager in Ronaldo. For his ability to win only 1 less trophy than Ferguson during his time with Arsenal without the budget that others have had, have made him a magnificent 'manager' of not only the team but of the funds. Arsenal are currently sitting 2nd in the Premiership ,( a point ahead of Man Utd) knockout stages of Europe having won their group having spent 35m less than Man Utd and a Billion Less than Chelski this Summer and having the burden of 256 million stadium. I can live with that!

If it's a value for money ratio - Wenger's streets ahead of any Manager in the game. :D

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I agree english teams have a terrible record in europe since the Ban. However i was comparing Ferguson to Wenger which is the topic of the debate. In that regard Wenger can never be regarded as a Great manager as he has done nothing at European level.

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Well I'd say neither can be regarded as great on the European level, and I would like to think that a discussion on either Wenger or Ferguson’s European Management credentials could be party to this thread given its title.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Ferguson did win the Cup Winners Cup with a regional team i.e. Aberdeen and winning the treble was a remarkable achievement hence it never been done before or since. Utd have reached the semis 3 times under his managership and they went out to Leverkeusen on away goals.

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Some other winners of the CWC (10 or so years either side of Aberdeen's win), that I'd class as regional

1974 FC Magdeburg
1976 & 78 Anderlecht
1981 Dynamo Tblisi
1988 Mechelen
1992 Werder Bremen
1995 Real Zaragosa .

I don’t think winning a competition that, lets be honest was never a first rate European Trophy, can be considered a great achievement. The teams he beat in that season were, Sion, Dinamo Tirana, Lech Poznan, Bayern Munich, Waterschei and Real Madrid in the final. With the exception of Bayern and Real, it would be hard to class any of the above teams as great European powers, four of the 6 opponents were, lets be honest probably far weaker than most of the small teams he'd have been playing in the Scottish League.

Against a relatively poor Bayern side, he drew 0-0 in Germany and won 3-2 at home. Similarly he beat Real 2-1 in extra time in the fina, creditable performaces but only over 3 matches. To my mind, his CWC win with Aberdeen, so frequently held up as an example of his European pedigree, consists of 6 ties, 4 against significantly weaker teams - and 2 made up of one-goal wins against good teams.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Capello has a great European track record as has Lippi other than that I think Fergusons compares favourable to contemporary mangers.

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Only if compared to other premier league managers. Otto Hitzfeld has won the CL twice, with different clubs (Dortmund and Bayern) and reached the final another time. Other managers have won it once also but have had much less time to do it than Ferguson (eg Ancelotti, Morinho, Del Bosque)

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Another thing that must be understood is that Ferguson is hated by the English journalist as he does not give them post match interviews. Joe Lovejoy was on Jimmy Hills supplment one day ans there was venom coming out of his mouth and it is generally agreed amongst most of the London based journalist that Ferguson is an ignorant man.

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His alleged ignorance, and the media's perception of him, in my opinion, have very little bearing on the facts of the matter - he has had more opportunity (in terms of time at club, ability of squad, money to spend etc) than any other manager in the modern European game over the past 15 years. Yet despite this (ie having a decent squad, a substantial amount of money, and 15 years) he has only one the biggest prize once... that to me is a poor record. I would like to think that any top manager at Old Trafford over that timescale would have been able to at least match his European achievements, and would imagine if Morinho is at Chelsea for 15 years he will win more than one Champions League.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

However has i said before he is very popular amongst the mangers. I think i know which I woudl prefer to be popular amongst.

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He may well be popular amongst the managers and unpopular with press, if I was him I wouldn’t place excessive care on either - Christian Gross was unpopular with the media, and Dave Bassett was popular with other managers yet there popularity had little impact on their success, which was governed by ability (or lack of it). The point is management is not a media or cohort popularity contest, winning trophies is what counts, and in Europe he's not done that nearly enough.

Yes but that is not the way managers are judged Wenger will never be considred a great manager until he can deal with the European game and win a European trophy or at least get Arsenal to a champions league final. THat is the true test of a manager. In relation to Fergusons friends within the game, that point was to counteract a lot of the comments that are made here and elsewhere that he is a scumbag and a ******** and that he is a **** stirrer etc. If that was the case do u think he woudl be friends with so many managers. In relation to Lippi it is possible to have two friends that dont get along. I am not saying that been popular is an important component in been a manager but in a thread where the point seem to be the managers personalities as well as their respective records it is a point worth bringing up.

Edmundo you seem to have narrowed the discussion to suit yoru argument. The thread is about wenger ferguson hence the title. It is not exclusively about the top managers in European football. THis is a valuable component of the argument however it is not the only part of the discussion. I think a manager who has won more trophies than any othe British manager must go down as one of the greatest managers of all time. That is fact. If wenger goes on to win more trophies than anybody else then he will go down as one of the greatest managers of all time as well. I agree that Fergusons spending of money in recent years has not been great but rememember the more money you have to spend the more you get charged for a player. If Utd go on for a player the cost of buying genearally doubles. IN additino Ferguson did not have loads of money to spend in the first few years. In addition he also formed the backbone of his side with players froma youth system that he set up. in my opinion that is the mark of a great manger, been able to set up a system at a club that had virtually no youth set up and get so many good players from it.

We are probably getting away from the original point of the thread. However I do think that Ferguson, if he was hit with food by Arsenal players is due an apolgoy by either Arsenal or by Wenger or by the player that did it to him. The diciplinary record of Arsenal since Wenger joined has been terrible and now manager should have to food thrown at him while he is walking back to his dressing room.

Neil, I’ll try and avoid further confusion by outlining my thoughts:-

* Ferguson's won a considerable amount of domestic trophies, however, for much of that time he (& man utd) had very little competition. There were no major challengers and the English league was as predictable as the Norwegian League.

* Wenger and Ferguson have pretty much similar domestic records asince Wenger became manager. Implying that once there was serious competition Ferguson's domestic record deteriorated.

* Ferguson has a better European record over that time.

* Ferguson has more means (ie more money, time at the helm etc) to succeed in Europe. In fact he's had great means but only won the CL once, Wenger's done worse but has (imo) had less resources.

* Wenger has a better record when it comes to buying players, he's generally spent less money (in some cases he actually made money for the club), and has had less expensive flops (Veron).

* Both have weaknesses in their current team (ie Goalkeepers), these weaknesses have been apparent for around a year yet neither manager has done anything about this. It could be argues that Wenger is limited by lack of money, but given Ferguson's spent significant money on 3 strikers (Saha, Smith, Rooney) over the past 12 months you have to question why he didn’t buy a quality keeper (eg Abbondanzieri, Hildbrant, Robinson or even try to get Given). To my mind that’s poor management.

* Incidentally it is worth considering that there are 3 top teams in the Premier League now. Chelsea, Arsenal, and Man Utd. Of their managers, there appears to be a conflict between Ferguson and Wenger, and Ferguson and Morinho - do you not consider it perhaps curious that there doesnt appear to be a conflict between Morinho and Wenger.

* To my mind AF’s lack of European success, coupled with the realisation that his golden era is over (and so chances of further European success are greatly diminished) has caused a degree of bitterness on his part. AW’s lack of funds means it will always be very difficult for him (& Arsenal) to compete with the richer European Clubs (Juventus, AC Milan, now Chelsea). Consequently Arsenal have a great 1st team but don’t have vast strength in their reserves. This means that, when they inevitably pick up one or two injuries, their form against the cream of European opposition suffers. Both managers are frustrated by their situations and hence the bickering, which frankly shows immaturity on the part of both. I cannot imagine Lippi, Trappatoni or Hitzfeld getting themselves dragged down to the level those two have.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

The diciplinary record of Arsenal since Wenger joined has been terrible and now manager should have to food thrown at him while he is walking back to his dressing room.

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It's worth noting that while the Gunners have had dubious displinary record, they finished first in the Fair Play Table last year and top 5 the year before. This is a significant improvement and testiment to Wenger's enforcement of disipline so often called into question.

Utd haven't always had the best displinary record during Fergusons reign with Cantano and Rio's bans stretching well over a year in length and the scenes of half the Utd Team chasing a referee around the pitch hardly covering the club in disipline glory.

It's swings and roundabouts for most clubs as far as disipline and I'm glad to see Wenger sorted that out when we were by far the worst for on-field offences!

I think we should call it a day on this one, we're worse than sky for the hype here and my blood pressure won't take 2 weeks of this!! May the best team win (as long as there wearing red n white!) :D

Could not give a **** who wins as Long as Ireland qualify for the world cup. I was tyring to comment on this as a dispasssionate observer and I dont get fooled by the media protrayal of Ferguson as a monster or whatever they like to call him. He comes across to me as a very principled but fair man and I do not support Utd or have I ever supported Utd. Also Wenger seems to be no friend of Ireland as I have not seen many irish players grace the Arsenal line up in his time there.

Hope Fergies lawyers is not reading this for your sake. Some serious allegations been levelled at him there, and i am not sure if any of them have been proven

Yes Stam and he has a sqeaky clean record himself

Of couse not but it does mean that maybe what he says may not be as honest or as truthful as you are painting out him to be. I would not take what is in his book as fact.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

I'd much rather a naughty great manager than a squeaky clean crap one...

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Which do you have now? ;)

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Originally Posted by Conor74

diving in European games - Jaap Stam printed it in his book. Ferguson's lawyers didn't/couldn't touch him.

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Naive to think that every team doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

insisting your players use your son as agent - Jonathan Greening said it was the reason he left manU, again the allegation was never legally challenged.

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Nothing at all to do with Greening being bitter about not being very good. Not exactly an unbias source. However, there are plenty of players at United that don't/didn't have his son as an agent and haven't been forced out of the club. Suggesting, favouring etc I'll accept (and think is wrong), but forced is going too far

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Originally Posted by Conor74

threatening to sue your directors over a present and throwing the club you manage into civil war - well publicised issue over the past few years.

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Well he did drop it for the good of the club - no one knew, including the tax dodgers, that the nag would prove so good. Wasn't good for the club, but then it depends on whether you think it's alright to give a present, and then take it back when you realise that it's actually quite a good one. It should be noted that SAF was settled, just not to the level he wanted.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

banning the BBC from interviews for instigating a Panorama investigation of your dealings with agents - as with the above, Panorama remain untouched and there is no legal attempt to rebut the allegations.

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So what - the BBC were doing a hatchet job on him, why should he support them at the same time. Incidentally all managers use this weapon when someone reports something they don't like. The Manchester Evening Blues have suffered from this a few times. The BBC have as well (normally as a result of Alan Green's anti-united rants)

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Originally Posted by Conor74

screwing money out of St. Mirren - I thin the issue involved expenses and the youth team account. Either way Ferguson ended up being shown the door which would suggest that they were certain where the problem lay.

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Depends on who you believe I suppose. I'll check the book tonight for the full story - he did go to an unfair dissmissals tribunal, (and lost, but not because of an issue over money) so it wasn't that clear cut.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Also Wenger seems to be no friend of Ireland as I have not seen many irish players grace the Arsenal line up in his time there.

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To be honest in Wengers time at Arsenal there are only a handful of Irish players who could get into his Arsenal team, Duff, Keane, Given maybe.

You should have a read of the 'Arsenal Irish' thread! You'd see that there are quite a number of young Irish male and female footballers now learning their trade under Arsene's coaching staff at club. Certainly there are very high hopes for Anthony Stokes who is playing regualry in the reserves and the likes of Emma Byrne who has won more trophies than I've had hot dinners!

I'm not sure if your trying to imply that Wenger has some sort of anti-irish disposition, I'd like to think you could back that up if it was the case :mad: . Certainly in the recent cases of Barrett and Stack - they were not better than the players who held their positions at the time (although a case could be made for Stack now).