something for lovers of our language

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Hé - cad mar gheall ar fórum Gaeilge ar foot.ie? Ansin beimis in ann Gaeilge a rá agus i nós na gaoithe beimis go léir ag caint le chéile i nGaeilge!

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I can only pick bits out of that now tbh. "Can we have an Irish forum on Foot.ie?" What's "gaoithe", wind? We have a lot of that around here anyway. ;)

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It sounds sad, but I honestly reckon the best chance Irish has to survive is by translating the Harry Potters, Agatha Christies, Douglas Adamses, etc., into Irish and encouraging a new generation to read Irish.

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Can't see that working tbh, although it'd certainly be worth a try with a few books. I don't have an answer tbh, aside from letting marketroids loose on it and making it "cool". It sounds odd, but a good marketroid can make anything cool.

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Maybe in 100 or 200 years, we can have a decent percentage speaking Irish. But I can't see it happening before that...

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If people in general embraced it we could probably do it in 5-15 years, but unfortunately that's pretty unlikely.

adam

Forgive me for saying but there is a reason we embraced English so fast in this country and the area of Irish speakers receded Westwards so rapidly and that is practicality. Look at the libraries of our great universities, packed from top to bottom with books in English. Irish is not a practical language as there is not a great deal of literature in the language. Anyone who would want to take a degree in anything would need English. The success of the English language is down to its wide bank of vocabulary and it adaptive nature. Notice than increasingly less used language in international spheres German and French are very stubborn in keeping out foreign words. English is replacing German in East and Central Europe as the language of business. Ireland cannot afford to go back. The fact we are an English speaking company also enables foreign companies to set up base here. It will not and cannot happen. Forgive me for being devil's advocate here language enthusiasts.

While official recognision would be nice, it all comes down to one thing. Do you go home of an evening and talk some irish? listen to RnG? watch TG4? Politics and beaurocracy isn't going to save the language. People using it will.

As pineapple stu said, I can string a conversation together, in my own pigeon irish, but reading and writing is a different matter. But that's the way it has to be for the language to develop.

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Originally Posted by noby

Do you go home of an evening and talk some irish? listen to RnG? watch TG4?

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I watch Survivor and Oz if that's any help? :D

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Originally Posted by Macy

I watch Survivor and Oz if that's any help? :D

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Somehow I had a feeling that might be said. Is survivor still narrated in irish. Maybe you're learning unknown to yourself. You could be fluent, but just haven't realised it yet.

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Originally Posted by noby

Somehow I had a feeling that might be said. Is survivor still narrated in irish. Maybe you're learning unknown to yourself. You could be fluent, but just haven't realised it yet.

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I'm predictably predictable :D

I have only a few words of Irish, not having been schooled here (not that that makes much of a difference).

Yea Adam tbh I see where you are coming from just something I take issue with. Then again Im biased. I worked in translating statues in Dublin and my God was it easy and well paid. Anyone who has a degree in Irish and who wants and easy life should apply:D www.publicjobs.ie . Applies to translation in general really. Those who can should!

I have spoken to MEP's, TDs and Udaras Reps about Gaeilge, dont know in reality what impact it had. I did get a few replies pointing to the enactment of the Official Languages Act which is in fairness a balanced piece of law IMO.

Look I want a cushie number sipping Hoergaarden in Brussels and flying home for every City match and doing my week's work in about 3 hours, being paid silly moeny to do so. Is that too much to ask?:p

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Originally Posted by Macy

I watch Survivor and Oz if that's any help? :D

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even more OT but...was last nights show the last ever?? Though it was a weak ending.

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Originally Posted by SÓC

Yea Adam tbh I see where you are coming from just something I take issue with. Then again Im biased. I worked in translating statues in Dublin and my God was it easy and well paid. Anyone who has a degree in Irish and who wants and easy life should apply:D www.publicjobs.ie . Applies to translation in general really. Those who can should!

I have spoken to MEP's, TDs and Udaras Reps about Gaeilge, dont know in reality what impact it had. I did get a few replies pointing to the enactment of the Official Languages Act which is in fairness a balanced piece of law IMO.

Look I want a cushie number sipping Hoergaarden in Brussels and flying home for every City match and doing my week's work in about 3 hours, being paid silly moeny to do so. Is that too much to ask?:p



even more OT but...was last nights show the last ever?? Though it was a weak ending.

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That's exactly what ****es me off about these translators. It's ****ing money away. I knew of someone who got away with tanslating Serbian into Bosnian, Croatian and Montenegran for a while for the UN, all the same language.

SÓC, I received a PM this morning that disagreed with you on the ease with which these docs could be translated, specifically an organisation with it's own in-house Irish department that didn't feel it was qualified to translate documents, which will now have to be sent to another location at extra cost. I don't know what those documents were, but of course it wouldn't just be statutes in this case anyway, it would be everything. I find it difficult to believe that translating complex legal and otherwise specialist documents would be all that easy. Not that it has much of a bearing, for the reasons I stated above.

I realise that you're being facetious with the comments about wanting a cushy number, but you still have a vested interest here; one that I certainly would have mentioned earlier if I had been in the same position. A bit Oirish that, no offense.

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

...As an idealist, I agree with you absolutely. In an ideal world these documents would be available in English, Irish, Ulster Scots, and possibly even Navajo. However the realist in me wins hands down on this occasion: This is a complete waste of time and money until such time as a lot more people are literate in Irish. A hell of a lot more people.

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Fair play to you, though, for hanging on to the idealist in you. "Until such time" is right. Yes, it's Eurobolloeux and a waste of money, but if other people want to acknowledge us, shouldn't we just let them?
I'm quite ashmed I know next to no Irish. Not my fault, I know that, but even so...

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

SÓC, I received a PM this morning that disagreed with you on the ease with which these docs could be translated, specifically an organisation with it's own in-house Irish department that didn't feel it was qualified to translate documents, which will now have to be sent to another location at extra cost. I don't know what those documents were, but of course it wouldn't just be statutes in this case anyway, it would be everything. I find it difficult to believe that translating complex legal and otherwise specialist documents would be all that easy. Not that it has much of a bearing, for the reasons I stated above.

I realise that you're being facetious with the comments about wanting a cushy number, but you still have a vested interest here; one that I certainly would have mentioned earlier if I had been in the same position. A bit Oirish that, no offense.

adam

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Era to be fair this was always the stand point I took before I ever started translating for cash. I've been fiarly active in Irish Language interest groups for a number of years. Foot.ie is hardly a Dáil Public Accounts Committee:D
My work in translation actually came from my interest in such rights rather than the other way around.

In Ireland we dont translate secondary legislation (Ministerial Orders etc). Only primary legislation (Acts) which dont have much detail and use the same phrases all the time. A lot of it is copy and paste. The hard work is in the actual Irish grammer that you have to use when you change various words, keeping the Irish uniform and of course understanding the legal meaning of specific words in Irish and English. When working in Wales I did some basic translating without being able to speak a word of the language becuase of the nature of the legal language used.

Translating other documents which are 'stand alone' pieces can be a serious minefield depending on the subject matter of the work. I was speaking to a dentist who had to translate tender forms for a new unit which I would hate to do.

That's what I mean, legal terms can be an absolute minefield, even in English. As an example, I was reading EDRI's newsletter last night which discussed legislation that had to be modified after a storm of protest pointed out that "apparently unlawful" is drastically different from "manifestly unlawful". It's just one word, but people's lives have relied on one word in legal definitions. Constitutional arguments invariably come down to this kind of thing, America is rife with cases about "(programming) code as speech" and suchlike.

Anyway, I think we've gone as far as we can with this. :)

adam

Well let me put my cards on the table, I believe that without our traditional music, dance and language we may as well burn our passports and ask the Brits to come back and govern us. All of the above is what makes us Irish and an independent people, nation etc.

Having said all that one way to make soccer fans in this country or more to thepoint EL fans better at Gaeilge would be if TG4 covered the Eircom League.
They did an excellent job a few years back on La Liga. So why not EL?

The First Division could be covered easily as well as TG4 covering events in its own heartland if Galway United home games were covered. The only club located in the Gaeltacht on Gaeltacht TV. Apt don't you think?

Tar éis cúpla séasúra beidh Gaeilge liofa ag na lucht féachanta don chlár seo.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Having said all that one way to make soccer fans in this country or more to thepoint EL fans better at Gaeilge would be if TG4 covered the Eircom League.
They did an excellent job a few years back on La Liga. So why not EL?

The First Division could be covered easily as well as TG4 covering events in its own heartland if Galway United home games were covered. The only club located in the Gaeltacht on Gaeltacht TV. Apt don't you think?

Tar éis cúpla séasúra beidh Gaeilge liofa ag na lucht féachanta don chlár seo.

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Well a fair few clubs have Gaelteachts in their county. Finn Harps, Cork City, Galway, Waterford. Drogs have one nearby, as do Derry. For some reason most of the Dublin Irish speakers I know follow Rovers. UCD also have obvious links.

Only problem is the TG4 Sports Department comprises of one person! they use a company in Waterford called Nemeton who have very limited resources

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Well let me put my cards on the table, I believe that without our traditional music, dance and language we may as well burn our passports and ask the Brits to come back and govern us. All of the above is what makes us Irish and an independent people, nation etc.

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I take it that's some exagguration for effect but that is a terribly narrow definition of the Irish nation.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

I take it that's some exagguration for effect but that is a terribly narrow definition of the Irish nation.

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Poor Student
Can you give me something else that makes us unique?
Hundreds of years of foreign domination? No I can name at least 40 other European countries that share that franchise, not to mention North and South America, Africa and large parts of Asia.

Our climate? No we share that with one of the islands of New Zealand, British COlumbia and the State of Washington in the USA.... so what else is there?

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Forgive me for saying but there is a reason we embraced English so fast in this country and the area of Irish speakers receded Westwards so rapidly and that is practicality. Look at the libraries of our great universities, packed from top to bottom with books in English. Irish is not a practical language as there is not a great deal of literature in the language. Anyone who would want to take a degree in anything would need English. The success of the English language is down to its wide bank of vocabulary and it adaptive nature. Notice than increasingly less used language in international spheres German and French are very stubborn in keeping out foreign words. English is replacing German in East and Central Europe as the language of business. Ireland cannot afford to go back. The fact we are an English speaking company also enables foreign companies to set up base here. It will not and cannot happen. Forgive me for being devil's advocate here language enthusiasts.

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The Bubonic plague spread like wildfire in the Middle Ages that does not necessarily make it a good thing... again an exaggeration for effect ;)

Right...

With regards to translation anyone who's done an Irish degree has probably read Mac Grianna's book about a year in his life and how he hated doing translation work for An Gúm, to be more precise he considered it false. It would be fair to say that getting a translation job is not exactly the top priority for most Irish speakers looking for official status.

Secondly as regards TG4 remember it was the league who botched it up because they cited the exact reasons CollegetilIdie gave for covering it. TG4 don't see themselves as a Gaeltacht station and want to cover the country on a wider scale than that, when the FAI/League ran the idea by them they found it insulting and effectively told them to get stuffed.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Forgive me for saying but there is a reason we embraced English so fast in this country and the area of Irish speakers receded Westwards so rapidly and that is practicality.

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Have to disagree. The reason we embraced the language so fast is because Irish was literally beaten out of kids at school.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Ireland cannot afford to go back. The fact we are an English speaking company also enables foreign companies to set up base here.

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Again, have to disagree. Dutch, for example, very much a minority language in the greater scheme of things, is thriving - because everyone can speak English there, but they have their own language as well. There's no reason, hypothetically, that we can't speak Irish in day-to-day activities and speak English if conducting business deals with a foreign party.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Have to disagree. The reason we embraced the language so fast is because Irish was literally beaten out of kids at school..

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There is a lot of truth in the above assertion. I was not one of those kids, with the result that I still love the language and despite not beginning to learn the language formally till the age of 9, we lived overseas for 6 years before that, I got honours Irish in the Leaving Certificate.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Again, have to disagree. Dutch, for example, very much a minority language in the greater scheme of things, is thriving - because everyone can speak English there, but they have their own language as well. There's no reason, hypothetically, that we can't speak Irish in day-to-day activities and speak English if conducting business deals with a foreign party.

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Quite right pineapple stu. Dutch is only spoken in Holland , Northern Belgium and a dialect of it is spoken by Afrikaaners in South Africa.