End of year assessment of trap's ireland

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Originally Posted by mark12345

I believe the answer lies in looking away from English football to the little clubs of Europe who have managed to find a home in the Europa League. The likes of Viktoria Plzen, Young Boys, Rosenborg, Copenhagen, and the Israelis clubs are models the League of Ireland clubs should aspire to emulate. We nearly had it a couple of seasons ago when Shamrock Rovers had that great run in Europe, but this year they were bounced out before the competition proper got going.

How good would it be though if we could depend on an Irish domestic club or two to have a decent run in Europe each year? League of Ireland, I never thought I would say it, is the future for the internatioal team. The better the game at home - the larger the pool of players we are going to have to call on.

And proof of this I suppose is the performances of Long, Doyle and Hoolahan since they went to England. There is good talent at home and we need to give it a platform to develop into something worthwhile.

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Do you attend LOI games?

Start going to matches the lot of ye.

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Originally Posted by Acornvilla

Start going to matches the lot of ye.

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If I could put my earlier post into one line, that'd do nicely.

Go support your local LoI team.

Also, if sh!te can be marketed as effectively as this sh!te is, then there's hope for the LoI...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sn9ot...%3Dsn9otNdqPXo

Except Kilmarnock who are probably better than every club in Ireland sadly, are part of an SPL whose crowds even now are probably double those of Irish clubs, excluding the Celtic/potential Zombies factor.
And whose players on average are a bit to somewhat better, are part of a more marketable product than the 4th most popular spectator sport on most of the island of Ireland...

Also a lot of people don't have a 'local' soccer club of great or even mediocre domestic status so the 'product' is fairly poor...

More optimistically, If they'll come or will be accommodated, foreign different coaches or training methods sounds a great idea.
Ideally based on a Scandinavian model?

It's a very difficult problem to solve.

Of course, by having a stronger domestic league which could offer better wages, we'd have more players staying at home. The best would still leave, but players who currently head to League 2 or League 1 clubs might be convinced to stay at home, although there could still be the belief that simply by playing in the UK, a player is more 'in the shop window' than in Ireland. Having said that, if LOI teams were a stronger force in Europe, that would be a shop window that League 1/2 clubs can't offer.

But that is only half the battle - just because players are staying at home, doesn't mean they're getting better trained than they would in England's lower league teams. Facilities in the football league are far far superior to virtually anything in the LOI - so there's no reason to assume that they would be trained better or differently.

Unless there is a stronger domestic league convincing players it's worthwhile to stay at home (financially and for their career) combined with some external training faciilties (as in, outside their club training), I'm not sure how we're going to systematically produce a better standard of player.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Do you attend LOI games?

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No, I live abroad

The type of coach I would like to import into Ireland is not the Mourinho or Roberto De Matteo, it's a youth coach from a place like Chile or Argentina, or even Africa at this stage because they seem to be producing a conveyor belt of very good players. It would be someone in an academy with a track record of producing tehnically good players. It's what the Irish youngsters need at this stage.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except Kilmarnock who are probably better than every club in Ireland sadly,

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Except they're not. Take a look at Irish sides records compared to Scots sides over the last ten years as well as any head to heads. I can't think of at least two "upsets"... the only real difference between the two leagues in terms of quality is Celtic.

By the way, since when does crowd size indicate quality as your post seems to imply heavily? The Iranian Premier League, where Eamon Zayed was a star, has some of the highest attendances of any league.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

More optimistically, If they'll come or will be accommodated, foreign different coaches or training methods sounds a great idea.
Ideally based on a Scandinavian model?

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What is it that you like about the Scandinavian model of coaching/training?

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Originally Posted by mark12345

No, I live abroad

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Do you support the league in other ways? Do you attend games when you're home?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except Kilmarnock who are probably better than every club in Ireland sadly, are part of an SPL whose crowds even now are probably double those of Irish clubs, excluding the Celtic/potential Zombies factor.
And whose players on average are a bit to somewhat better, are part of a more marketable product than the 4th most popular spectator sport on most of the island of Ireland...

Also a lot of people don't have a 'local' soccer club of great or even mediocre domestic status so the 'product' is fairly poor...

More optimistically, If they'll come or will be accommodated, foreign different coaches or training methods sounds a great idea.
Ideally based on a Scandinavian model?

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A very weak and ill-informed post.

Conor Sammon went over to Kilmarnock from the League of Ireland and was hailed as a great signing, banging in goals for fun. In the League of Ireland he was nothing more than an average striker.

The Scottish League is over hyped, with a very poor standard of football.

Attendances are large because publicity is large. When there is plenty of media coverage, naturally, people are going to attend.
If the League of Ireland got the same amount of media publicity, we'd have a much, much stronger league, with much higher attendances.

It's a credit to the League of Ireland, that with such poor media coverage, and such bigotry and outright hatred of the League, that teams like Sligo, Shamrock Rovers and Cork city can attract 3,500+ to each and every home game over a league season.

As been said already, it's been backed up in recent times with European results that the League of Ireland is stronger than the Scottish League in terms of football (outside of the big two).

The quicker people realise that, the better for our league.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Conor Sammon went over to Kilmarnock from the League of Ireland and was hailed as a great signing, banging in goals for fun. In the League of Ireland he was nothing more than an average striker.

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Very poor example. Sammon was 22 heading over to Kilmarnock and it took him 2 seasons to find his feet at all; I don't think he "was hailed as a great signing" or "banging in goals for fun" when he scored 1 league goal in each of his first two seasons at Kilmarnock. It wasn't until he was 24 that he began to start scoring and it would be difficult to attribute that development to any factors or trace it to any level of parity or disparity between the SPL and LOI due to the time variables.

He seems to be doing okay in the Championship now.

Sammon is a strange one. He clearly always had potential but I, and a lot of other people, couldn't see it. I remember him being called up to Ireland underage teams while he was at UCD and looking fairly useless.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Except they're not. Take a look at Irish sides records compared to Scots sides over the last ten years as well as any head to heads. I can't think of at least two "upsets"... the only real difference between the two leagues in terms of quality is Celtic.

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Really? Much as I'd love it to be, do tell?
Not a gambling man, but I reckon the UEFA co-efficient for Scotland in the last decade is a lot higher than the best Irish clubs, sadly.

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What is it that you like about the Scandinavian model of coaching/training?

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Erm, countries of a similar size with similar interest nationally in the sport.

Would love to take on German or Dutch styles, but we'd never get their top coaches in their prime...

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

A very weak and ill-informed post.

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You mean your own about Mr.Sammon?

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Conor Sammon went over to Kilmarnock from the League of Ireland and was hailed as a great signing, banging in goals for fun. In the League of Ireland he was nothing more than an average striker.

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The Scottish League is over hyped, with a very poor standard of football.

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Agreed it's not great, but on average, even as a proud Irishman who's been to half the LOI grounds, that standard is generally even lower.
By your definition standards it would be 'sh*t'?

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Attendances are large because publicity is large. When there is plenty of media coverage, naturally, people are going to attend.
If the League of Ireland got the same amount of media publicity, we'd have a much, much stronger league, with much higher attendances.

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Which pretty much confirms what I said in my last post on the subject. That and it's a 'better', at least marginally, product.

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It's a credit to the League of Ireland, that with such poor media coverage, and such bigotry and outright hatred of the League, that teams like Sligo, Shamrock Rovers and Cork city can attract 3,500+ to each and every home game over a league season.

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Wow. County hurling crowds and even midweek race-meetings can draw bigger crowds.
And 'bigotry and outright hatred'?? Are you sure, really??

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As been said already, it's been backed up in recent times with European results that the League of Ireland is stronger than the Scottish League in terms of football (outside of the big two).

The quicker people realise that, the better for our league.

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Hmm. Scepticism abounds. See my co-efficient point above. And the overall record of all Scottish clubs is far superior to Irish ones. Wales would be a more reasonable comparison. Or perhaps Finland...

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Really? Much as I'd love it to be, do tell?
Not a gambling man, but I reckon the UEFA co-efficient for Scotland in the last decade is a lot higher than the best Irish clubs, sadly.

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Take Celtic and Rangers out and Irish clubs have a better record, which is the point Nigel was making. Head to head records bear this out, despite the vast financial advantage of Scottish clubs.

I know but Celtic and the former Rangers are part of Scottish football.

If they didnt' exist, assuming all their 250k+ fans still were involved in the sport, then the overall resources of crowds and finances would just be more evenly distributed. Including competition in Europe. And 50-60k active fans...

Far in excess of anything Irish soccer could ever dream of.

Anyway, the performance of the current Ireland team, as has been said above, has precious little to do with the state of the domestic league.
Much more about the conservative tactics of a geriatric Italian.

Loads of countries have their best players play outside their domestic leagues. Even Brazil. So what?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

I know but Celtic and the former Rangers are part of Scottish football.

If they didnt' exist, assuming all their 250k+ fans still were involved in the sport, then the overall resources of crowds and finances would just be more evenly distributed. Including competition in Europe. And 50-60k active fans...

Far in excess of anything Irish soccer could ever dream of.

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I think it's a huge assumption to say the Scottish league's resources would be anything close to the current level were Celtic and Rangers not to exist. There are only so many people in these towns and the evidence is that only people in Glasgow really give a fig about their local sides. If Celtic and Rangers ceased to exist, I really can't see Ross County's attendances increasing proportionately.

And you're dodging the point now. You're saying Kilmarnock are vastly better than any LOI side and citing the coefficient as evidence. It's been pointed out that the coefficient is solely down to Celtic and Rangers, so I have trouble seeing why it suggests Kilmarnock are a better side. The fact they can occasionally beat Celtic given 4+ attempts per year means very little when any time a LOI side faces an SPL side, the LOI side tends to come out on top.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Anyway, the performance of the current Ireland team, as has been said above, has precious little to do with the state of the domestic league.
Much more about the conservative tactics of a geriatric Italian.

Loads of countries have their best players play outside their domestic leagues. Even Brazil. So what?

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The difference is that Brazil have more players than us in every league in the world bar our own.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I think it's a huge assumption to say the Scottish league's resources would be anything close to the current level were Celtic and Rangers not to exist. There are only so many people in these towns and the evidence is that only people in Glasgow really give a fig about their local sides. If Celtic and Rangers ceased to exist, I really can't see Ross County's attendances increasing proportionately.

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Have you ever been to CP or Govan? I have and attendees and other SC members from outside Glasgow run into the tens of thousands on both sides. And right across most of the populated areas.
Essentially, Scotland has far more active fans for a small country with around 50k match-going and maybe more, excluding Celtic/Rangers.

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You're saying Kilmarnock are vastly better than any LOI side and citing the coefficient as evidence. It's been pointed out that the coefficient is solely down to Celtic and Rangers, so I have trouble seeing why it suggests Kilmarnock are a better side. The fact they can occasionally beat Celtic given 4+ attempts per year means very little when any time a LOI side faces an SPL side, the LOI side tends to come out on top.

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I'm glad the Irish teams come out on top v.Scottish teams. Wow.

But SPL clubs do have a better record v.other European teams. Neither is great, granted.

Certainly in Euro competition overall, whilst maybe the last decade, or so, has seen a narrowing in the overall gap.
Will even allow you the advantage of excluding Celtic and the Govan tribute act.


Lastly, what about all the other countries whose top players are based elsewhere ...
Excluding Brazil.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Have you ever been to CP or Govan? I have and attendees and other SC members from outside Glasgow run into the tens of thousands on both sides. And right across most of the populated areas.
Essentially, Scotland has far more active fans for a small country with around 50k match-going and maybe more, excluding Celtic/Rangers.

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Again, you're arguing about attendances. More Scottish people go to games than Irish, this is undisputed. My point is that you said "overall resources of crowds and finance would be more evenly distributed" but I'm saying they'd be distributing a much smaller pie, even if it is bigger than the Irish pie. Busloads of fans descending on Celtic Park from all corners of Scotland wouldn't suddenly migrate to other teams.

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I'm glad the Irish teams come out on top v.Scottish teams. Wow.

But SPL clubs do have a better record v.other European teams. Neither is great, granted.

Certainly in Euro competition overall, whilst maybe the last decade, or so, has seen a narrowing in the overall gap.
Will even allow you the advantage of excluding Celtic and the Govan tribute act.

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Err, do they have a better record? Who have the clubs outside the old firm beaten recently?