Historical Context

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Medals won by Croatia in the last 2 Summer Olympics; 10. Medals won by ireland; 3. In 2008 they had a team of 108, we had 54. In the 5 summer games they've competed they've won medals in 11 different sports (including 3 team sports of basketball, handball and water polo). At the 19 games Ireland as competed, we've won medals in 4 sports. Croatia has also won 10 medals at the last 3 winter olympics. Do you want more?



Croatia have attempted to qualify for 9 major tournaments and have done so 7 times.

Oh and on the domestic league thingy, LOI clubs have faced croatians sides 3 times, winning twice.

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Bogball and Hurling not being Olympic Sports, it hardly holds up. Unless either of us has accurate figures on sports participation levels on Croatia it's pretty hard to tell what's what in that regard.

As for your massive sample of 3 games in Europe, all I will say is that the LOIs UEFA co-efficient is 7.375. Prva Ligas is 18.874. That and that Dundee United have won 4 out of 4 games in Europe against Barcelona.

But all this simply misses the point. We are actually doing really well considering the resources we have. Croatia are doing slightly better, but why are we only comparing ourselves to Croatia and not Romania, Belgium, Hungary, Serbia, Belarus, Austria, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Finland or Norway? Why can't we just celebrate what has been achieved up to now instead of conducting the post mortem before the patient is even dead. We still have 2 games in this group and a win and a draw will probably take us through.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Why can't we just celebrate what has been achieved up to now instead of conducting the post mortem before the patient is even dead. We still have 2 games in this group and a win and a draw will probably take us through.

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It'd be a fairly boring message board if all we talk about for the next few days is how well we did to beat Estonia and that a win and a draw can take us through.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Good shout and also got our best results against decent teams (Germany, Cameroons and moral draw against Spain). He is also the only manager who has not gone into a tournament with a negative and essentially patronising assessment of our footballing capabilities. Already commented on another thread, that he would be a better bet than Trapp for the next campaign. At least we could be certain of never seeing Green, O'Dea or MacShane in another squad.

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Been saying the same, Mick would be ideal to come back and for the next campaign. This isn't a go at Trap though, he saw a team low on confidence, that shipped goals easily. He has worked on making us hard to beat. Comparing last night to '02 and our last game against Spain, it's sad the way there's such a lack of creativity.

Since we are talking about populations I'm still waiting for China, India and Pakistan to win the world cup- tsk
As Dodge says people do actually play sports outside of Ireland.
Typical Irish "will do" defeatist attitude

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

It'd be a fairly boring message board if all we talk about for the next few days is how well we did to beat Estonia and that a win and a draw can take us through.

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It'd be fairly exciting if we uploaded our favourite recipes for legal highs. But there must be a happy medium between that and the current exercise in self-flagellation (If you have to look that up it's not what you think).

Changing the subject somewhat, how do people think this Irish side stacks up against the 02 vintage?

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

It'd be fairly exciting if we uploaded our favourite recipes for legal highs. But there must be a happy medium between that and the current exercise in self-flagellation (If you have to look that up it's not what you think).

Changing the subject somewhat, how do people think this Irish side stacks up against the 02 vintage?

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I'm not sure Mick had better players at his disposal than Trap did (Holland, Kinsella, Kilbane, Breen all started) yet we managed to outplay the Spanish. Admittedly Duffer was at his peak but there's no reason why the team today couldn't play reasonably similar if they tried, imo.

Kinsella and Holland are far better than Andrews and Whelan. Makes a huge difference imo.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Kinsella and Holland are far better than Andrews and Whelan. Makes a huge difference imo.

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I would agree with that, and he who must not be mentioned was terrific in qualification. The pace and energy of Duff and Keane terrified defences. They are very different players now.

If Mick was in charge I think we'd have been looking at a bit more creativity in midfield. It's hard to discuss James McCarthy who had personal reasons for not being in the squad but under Mick, he'd have had more of a part to play prior to the tournament. Same possibly would've applied for Gibson. McGeady could easily fill the Duffer role of '02 or as someone suggest, Hunt possibly could've done like wise.

Starting XI v Spain 2002:
Given
G Kelly Staunton (Cunningham 50 mins) Breen Harte
Finnan Kinsella Holland Kilbane
Duff Keane

Starting XI v Croatia 2012 (would've been Trap's first choice for v Spain 14/6/12 prior to possible rethink):
Given
O'Shea Dunne St. Ledger Ward
Duff Whelan Andrews McGeady
Doyle Keane

There isn't a whole lot of difference in some respects between both sides. I'm a firm believer though that McCarthy would have the team set-up to play more football. Even being conservative, I'd see a Mick team from the current squad being:

Given
O'Shea Dunne St. Ledger Ward
Duff Gibson Andrews Hunt
McGeady Doyle

Mick clearly is a big fan of Doyle and Hunt. Would he have stuck with Keane? Be a hard call. The team mentioned anyways would be similar to '02.

I'm just going to say it again cos f*ck it, i have nothing to lose but Traps lack of belief in the quality of our players is what holds us back. It's sad and I don't buy it for one second. Our standard of player is there or thereabouts as compared to 2002. In fact we are stronger in one area, up front. Our midfield is largely the same standard and our defense a little bit weaker.

The scariest part is the quality that we have left at home or haven't even had a look at. I think it's fair to say that there is a stronger squad that could have been picked but for Traps lack of belief in our ability to play football. When you pick the Paul Greens of the world it is easy to hide behind that myth. The point is we have better players that should be playing for us.

If Trap allowed us to express ourselves a bit more we'd be far better off for it. I'm not talking Stan's version, it doesn't always have to be an extreme. There's a way to play with shape, discipline and self expression. His lack of faith in our talent pool from Day One of his reign is shameful and will be to our detriment as a footballing nation. McCarthy got the balance right for the most part.

Oh well, at least we're there... Right?

I think the line-up of this tournament is stronger than was at WC02 and this is definitely the strongest group we've ever been in, bar 1988.

As I've said before, Trap for the away games, Mick for the home games. I think Trap's value was edging out those tricky ex-communist country away trips where we have historically been awful - and especially under Mick.

Trap needs to have another trick in his locker though and I don't have confidence that he has the flexibity or the imagination to get one. I also agree that he should trust more creative players and we should by now have two styles of play and even preferred starting XIs depending on the circumstances. It's not that (for example) Hoolahan should be in the team instead of Green, it's that Hoolahan should be in the team at home to X but not when we're away to Y for example.

I'll defend him in one context though. He came in at a time when there was a major necessity not to faff about and rebuild like Mick had license to do in 1996 and Stan in 2006. The FAI needed results and fast and Trap has pretty much delivered that. Also, despite Trap's lack of imagination and what I think are pretty poor team selections at times, it just can't be denied that we have not got a central midfielder of genuine standing who can exert an influence on a game at this level, bar Gibson maybe. This might be surmountable by having an extra midfielder and this is where Trap infuriates me - his rigid adherence to one approach regardless of the circumstance.

Much as I'm fond of Mick, let's not forget that stubborn loyalty to sub-par players led to his downfall at Wolves.

McCarthy had Roy Keane for much of his time as manager, he also had Niall Quinn who was a decent target man in 2002 - pretty much the reason why we got the second penalty against Spain, and his header set up the Robbie Keane equaliser against Germany. I think the squad in 2002 (including the qualification games before the World Cup) lended itself to having different styles of play and different options and was perhaps a bit stronger than the one now.

Robbie Keane was at his peak (or nearer it) than now, Duff was almost at his peak. There was some experience in the squad too it was Staunton's 3rd competition (90, 94 2002) and Quinn's 3rd one too (he missed 94 but was in Euro 88). McAteer, and Gary Kelly had both been at USA 94. Also Kelly and Harte had been in the Champions League semis a year before 2002. Our current squad doesnt really have that level of tournament competition and we really are limited in terms of being able to change our style.

Look at McCarthy's results once the old guard retired after the 2002 world cup (defeat 4-2 in Russia and a home defeat to Switzerland, both at the time fairly mediocre teams) and you can see that with a more limited squad he couldn't get telling results.

I don't agree with some of Trap's selections, for instance I wouldnt have had McShane or Paul Green in the squad and would have preferred Ciaran Clarke and maybe Greg Cunningham, and I probably would have thrown James McClean on but it's hard to argue with the first team he selected on Sunday.

I think it's also important to revisit past finals performances without the tinted glasses.

In Euro 88 I thought we were superb in two games and while we rode our luck vs England it was a ballsy performance and we were right up for it.

In Italy we were pretty poor vs England and my clear recollection was that Kevin Moran fouled Waddle for a penno at 1-0 down that to this day I haven't seen replayed but am still convinced it was a penno. Didn't stop me shouting "Cheat Cheat Cheat" at Waddle mind you!

We were flat and unimaginative aqainst Egypt (who were actually OK, contrary to perception) and got lucky against Holland, though I concede we could stand up for ourselves against the big boys back then.

Romania and ourselves canceled each other out and we created one chance of note against Italy, a Quinn header. Things fell into place for us out there though, but the end result - a Q/F - was barely justified by the performances.

USA 94 started with a legendary win, a deserved but narrow defeat to Mexico and a horribly ugly 0-0 with Norway. We then just gifted a win to Holland in a dreadfully flat performance in Orlando.

We played well in Japorea but I don't think either Cameroon and especially Saudi were anywhere near as good as the teams we're playing this week.

In all those tournaments we've had players like Hughton, Stan, Irwin, Kelly, Phelan or Finnan at full back. Harte was injured in 02 but was quality in the qualifiers. We've had Irish legends in midfield. We're weaker in those key positions than we have been in any tournament. A peak Mark Kinsella would walk in ahead of Whelan or Andrews I think.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

McCarthy had Roy Keane for much of his time as manager, he also had Niall Quinn who was a decent target man in 2002 - pretty much the reason why we got the second penalty against Spain, and his header set up the Robbie Keane equaliser against Germany. I think the squad in 2002 (including the qualification games before the World Cup) lended itself to having different styles of play and different options and was perhaps a bit stronger than the one now.

Robbie Keane was at his peak (or nearer it) than now, Duff was almost at his peak. There was some experience in the squad too it was Staunton's 3rd competition (90, 94 2002) and Quinn's 3rd one too (he missed 94 but was in Euro 88). McAteer, and Gary Kelly had both been at USA 94. Also Kelly and Harte had been in the Champions League semis a year before 2002. Our current squad doesnt really have that level of tournament competition and we really are limited in terms of being able to change our style.

Look at McCarthy's results once the old guard retired after the 2002 world cup (defeat 4-2 in Russia and a home defeat to Switzerland, both at the time fairly mediocre teams) and you can see that with a more limited squad he couldn't get telling results.

I don't agree with some of Trap's selections, for instance I wouldnt have had McShane or Paul Green in the squad and would have preferred Ciaran Clarke and maybe Greg Cunningham, and I probably would have thrown James McClean on but it's hard to argue with the first team he selected on Sunday.

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That was a bit soon to judge for sure. The atmosphere at the time was he had to go with fans chanting Keano at the end of the Swiss game.
It was the right decision for him to leave at the time but the door was kept open in discussions about a return in the future, which cannot be ruled out.
The Russian and Swiss results were disappoionting but it's never been unusual for teams of the back of a major tournament. Had he remained in the job there's every reason he could've turned it around but alas it never happed. Every manager should be judged over the course of a campaign, within reason.

McCarthy also inherited a team from Jack that was jaded and he experimented with new ideas and resources. I think it took 6 games for a win(?), but he refreshed the team with unheralded names like Harte and Cunningham, Dave Savage, Kinsella etc. I think he took us to two play-offs.

I know there were odd decisions (Keane as sweeper against Iceland) but at least you can't say he wasn't imaginative and experimental. I really enjoyed the immediate post-Jack years.

All rebuilding takes a bit of time. I think it was the Czech's who've had to rebuild a bit after retirements during the last qualification for this euros.

I'd regard the Czech team as a team in the early stages of rebuilding, by their standards.

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Originally Posted by cavan_fan

So that was our 17th major tournament match. It feels like our worst game of them all. Can only compare to Egypt and Mexico.

It felt like the result that could have happened in so many other game but which we managed to avoid through a combination of luck and commitement.

Are we about to have our first bad tournament?

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Mexico and Holland (Orlando) I'd say. We were also well beaten by Italy in Rome. Egypt doesn't come in to the equation. England and super duper Holland also had miserable games against them but that's forgotton by some.

What are these "so many other games" that we could have lost? Other than the Russian game (which result didn't matter in the end but is forever being trotted out as Trap's luck), I am hard pushed to think of any. As for luck, this could have been our second tournament under Trap in his second qualifying campaign but for the mother of all bad luck in Paris. Two qualifying campaigns unbeaten away from home. Unbelievable.

It is the first campaign we have started out with a loss and if the breaks had gone our way, we might have scraped a 1-1 out of it. Hence, with the World Champions to come followed by Italy, the odds are it will be our worst tournament but we were due one.

The debate later about how to react to a defeat as a fan is interesting. I was at the game with a friend who regards any attempt at a joke or a sing song after a defeat as a betrayal. "Only here for the party" he scoffs at such people and dare they start singing "Always look on the bright side of life" and he'll have apoplexy. We didn't go back in to town after the game but returned to the hotel to get depressed. I am half with him. As we walked to the bus, some clown of a supporter reacted to some noise from the stadium by saying to his mates "That's Robbie Keane out there playing on his own, first touch he got all night" and had a great laugh with his mates. I felt like hitting him. However, the fact that you can shake hand with the opposition after the match and have a drink in town doesn't mean you're not hurting. People deal with defeat in different ways. Sure there are many who come just for the party atmosphere but so long as they get behind the team at the game, good luck to them. There is a hard core of diehard fans but they shouldn't think that everyone must feel the same level of pain as them. Getting to the tournament is to be celebrated. To me that was the first objective, the second is then to do well and if that doesn't work out, stand up for the team and management and resist those who have been waiting to attack them and drown my sorrows and hope that the next game will be better.

Stand up for the boys in green....

No sing song for me after the game. Two downbeat and quiet beers and then bed.

Regardless of what happens in next two games my hope is that Trap refreshes the personnel - not on a wholesale basis - and ideas. Trap's methods are great at eeking out the important away results but the days when you could bank on a home win against roughly equal oposition are long gone. I'd like to think that Trap will use all his experience and make a re-assessment of what he has to work with, how effective or otherwise his ideas are and chart a course accordingly. In business if you have a good year you still need to keep an eye on strengths, waekness, opportunities and threats. Football is the same. What worked last year may not work this year etc.

It's hard not to focus on the negatives when you can barely even compete with a good tier 2 team, which is what I think Croatia is. But hey, football is football, you win and lose and small things make huge differences.

Funnily enough I'm expecting a reaction tomorrow and have a feeling something special is in store. I don't care how primitive or ugly.

Two of the most disappointing performances in recent years were followed up by solid responses: Cyprus away then a ballsy draw against Czech rep. where we should have won, and Russia at home was followed up by a ballsy away draw in Slovakia where we'd have won if we were more clinical.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Two of the most disappointing performances in recent years were followed up by solid responses: Cyprus away then a ballsy draw against Czech rep. where we should have won, and Russia at home was followed up by a ballsy away draw in Slovakia where we'd have won if we were more clinical.

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i'm trying to tell myself the same thing but spain are just must stronger than either of those sides. plus they need a result.

luck didn't fall our way since the draw was made - even the order we are playing the teams could have worked out better. i think we'd have been much better off facing spain first.

i think if we try to go backs to the wall tomorrow we'll be overrun - we have to score first to have any chance.