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Well on that basis they're still in a much better position than Alan Quinn who warms the Sheffield United bench and so either faces no teams at all or little cameo appearences in the less than world class second division of England. Is that what being tested on a regular basis is about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beavis
Ah, a skyhypno!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beavis
neither will you get it in divisions below the english premiership.
Yes, but they're still playing at a higher level than the eL, most of the Irish team is in the Premiership against the likes of Henry, Scholes, Giggs, etc. Even if Quinn can't get a game, when he does play, he plays well enough against quality opposition, 1st division is still better than the eL. Weso is a good player I know and probably does deserve a place on the bench, but getting round Liam Kearney isn't enough of a test to warrant such a risjy move from Kerr.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Who are these internationals and how often do they play for there country? I will presume that they are internationals in the vein of Jason Byrne and Joe Ndo, of a lower level and for poorer teams, the players for those international sides probably wouldn't get a place in 1st division sides, which is where most of our internationals come from.Quote:
Split, Rekjavik, Malmo, Nantes and Nemjegen all contain international players, if EL players don't look out of place against teams of internationals, world class or not, then that says it all. Split, Rekjavik, Malmo, Nantes and Nemjegen are also as good or better than the average teams you'll meet in the lower leagues in England which, sadly, is where some of our players come from.
A face: Soon, Jason Byrne and Glen Crowe have paved a way for eL players and I think that in the next 5-7 years we will start to see alot more international participation from eL players. And about the prospect of international duty being an incentive, Brian Kerr should not put eL players in the team purely to get them to improve their standard, when higher standard players are available.
Playing the odd time against lower level opposition is clearly not better credentials when playing week in week out against EL opposition, playing five games (so far) against european sides containing internationals and being a star during his 9 U21 caps. Weso played more minutes against Deportivo alone than Quinns managed this season against lower league English sides, says it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
First of all Joey Ndo won 30 caps for Cameroon and played in two world cups. Second of all these internationals included seven mainstays in the Iceland squad, Croatian internationals who went to Euro 2004 and well, Deportivo, I don't even have to mention those. The Dutch team had a Dutch international aswell, Nantes had French internationals I think and Malmo had Swedish internationals. That's better than anything you'll get in the lower levels in England. Are you really saying these players can play for countries like that, in major tournaments, but wouldn't be good enough to get their place in 1st division sides, or even on the bench of 1st division sides like Alan Quinn?Quote:
Who are these internationals and how often do they play for there country? I will presume that they are internationals in the vein of Jason Byrne and Joe Ndo, of a lower level and for poorer teams, the players for those international sides probably wouldn't get a place in 1st division sides, which is where most of our internationals come from.
Higher standard players are not available, alan Quinn is not better than Wes Hoolahan, Alan Maybury is not better than Heary. I've seen alot of all four players and believe me, they're not anyway better than Hoolahan or Heary. Maybury embarassed himself on international duty against Poland, Heary kept Depors left winger in his back pocket and picked up man of the match, says it all.Quote:
A face: Soon, Jason Byrne and Glen Crowe have paved a way for eL players and I think that in the next 5-7 years we will start to see alot more international participation from eL players. And about the prospect of international duty being an incentive, Brian Kerr should not put eL players in the team purely to get them to improve their standard, when higher standard players are available.
And why wait 5-7 years when European results this season show they're ready now?
I'll have a bash at one or two of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
that incentive point first - if you want to give players a run for the good of league morale because they play in EL - that's like affirmative action - if they're good enough yes, otherwise they can hump off. There is a rolling stone/moss scenario to letting one or two lads play yes but only for the right reasons. they was you're written that there, you're implying that we should do it anyway, regardless of the realities.
shash/ed - you continually trot out alan quinn as an example of what is in the squad. so he's on the bench at sheff? if he played in EL he would probably be one of the top 10 players in the league. He's easily as good as Moore.
as for when do players get a chance... heary is not going to get a game as long as we have so many handy right backs. wes h. should get a call up- I'll not argue that one as I agree he has done very nicely lately.
The reason I'm not going to get excited though is because these players still have to get past the "big game" reasoning, by which I mean these lads are as a group raising their games for the big occaision which is fantastic but dedication, committment and drive will only get you so far. You'd have to be honest and say if Shels play a team the level of Depor 15 times a season they'd probably lose more than draw/win.
the mere fact that there are 6-8 players in the league that we all reckon have a better than outside chance of getting called up is fantastic and a much better scenario than a year ago. People may be clamouring for it now and going mad over exclusions but if the home-based lads really are as good as they are showing to be of late they will get in sooner or later.
If I was a betting man, I'd have my money on one or two getting called up when Kerr has the players sorted out after a busy start to the season. remember, this is the first game of his first proper campaign, he has to tread very carefully to get it right.
dynamo kerry makes the point, plenty of players have come over from 1st division and 2nd division teams and have made a huge impact here. Stick Alan Quinn in the Shels set up and he'll become a central part of the set up. Weso, as i said before, does deserve a call-up in my view, but shouldn't be on the first team. Depor, as I also said before, were out of season, unprepared, over-confident and playing for a 0-0 draw. It'll be interesting to see how they cope with Wes in the Riazor, then we'll see who's international material.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Joe Ndo won them many years ago, he didn't play in 2002, he's on his way down. Iceland are ****, no offense to the strong Icelandic community on foot.ie. They wouldn't come near beating a 1st division or premiership squad. Split had one Croatian who doesn't get his game for Croatia, Nejmegen had 1 dutch international you say, I'm sure he gets more play than Kluivert. You think Nantes had French internationals, if they did, would they knock Henry out of the squad? And I'd like some names of these, I'm sure, world-class Swedish internationals in the Malmo squad. These players don't play in major tournaments and wouldn't knock Alan Quinn off the bench in Sheffield.Quote:
First of all Joey Ndo won 30 caps for Cameroon and played in two world cups. Second of all these internationals included seven mainstays in the Iceland squad, Croatian internationals who went to Euro 2004 and well, Deportivo, I don't even have to mention those. The Dutch team had a Dutch international aswell, Nantes had French internationals I think and Malmo had Swedish internationals. That's better than anything you'll get in the lower levels in England. Are you really saying these players can play for countries like that, in major tournaments, but wouldn't be good enough to get their place in 1st division sides, or even on the bench of 1st division sides like Alan Quinn?
That's opinion, Maybury doesn't usually get his game. Finnan, Carr, O'Shea et al. are more than enough to keep Heary in Tolka. Wes has to be tested regularly against truely quality oponents to warrant a place in the Ireland team. Deportivo are an exception as they were unprepared, out of season, etc. etc. and can't be used as proof of weekly world class opposition that eL players have to play.Quote:
Higher standard players are not available, alan Quinn is not better than Wes Hoolahan, Alan Maybury is not better than Heary. I've seen alot of all four players and believe me, they're not anyway better than Hoolahan or Heary. Maybury embarassed himself on international duty against Poland, Heary kept Depors left winger in his back pocket and picked up man of the match, says it all.
finnan isnt that great, as for maybury...nuff said.Quote:
if we didn't have such an abundance of right backs.
carr or heary would be my first choice right back and IMO finnan should be used as a versitality player.
Malmo are top of the swedish division. Skoog is the name.
As for an earlier point from Dynamo kerry that the LOI players are raising their games because they are one off games - well so are internationals, even more so. We played six weeks in a row of european matchs. :rolleyes:
And if Shels Tim needs to be given names of palyers who are internationals on all these teams it shows his lack of football knowledge rather than a reflection of anything else.
Alan Moore played more in the first division than Quinn is playing now and Wes is still outshining him. I mean you agree he deserves a call up which is all I want, he wont be in the first team but he's worth a game in the friendlys to show what he can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
He was in the 2002 world cup squad and at 28 is in his prime, not on his way down. Iceland may be ****e but they're still internationals, Split had a Croatian who was in their squad for 2004. That's as good as any first division player would get for Croatian. No first division player would get within an arses roar of the Dutch team, let alone first division reserve players.Quote:
Joe Ndo won them many years ago, he didn't play in 2002, he's on his way down. Iceland are ****, no offense to the strong Icelandic community on foot.ie. They wouldn't come near beating a 1st division or premiership squad. Split had one Croatian who doesn't get his game for Croatia, Nejmegen had 1 dutch international you say, I'm sure he gets more play than Kluivert. You think Nantes had French internationals, if they did, would they knock Henry out of the squad? And I'd like some names of these, I'm sure, world-class Swedish internationals in the Malmo squad. These players don't play in major tournaments and wouldn't knock Alan Quinn off the bench in Sheffield.
Maybury is still in the latest squad, so we're comparing Heary to him and him alone, not O'Shea, Carr, Finnan et al. You can make all the excuses you want about Depor but they're still one of the best sides in the world and he still outshone them all going forward, like I said it's more than Quinns done all season for Sheffield United. He's gotten, I think, 20 minutes all told, and done nothing, aganst lower level English clubs. If that's more impressive then being class in five champions league matches, not to mention his nomation for U21 player of the year ahead of many people who went onto win caps and his preformances in the EL then there's something wrong.Quote:
That's opinion, Maybury doesn't usually get his game. Finnan, Carr, O'Shea et al. are more than enough to keep Heary in Tolka. Wes has to be tested regularly against truely quality oponents to warrant a place in the Ireland team. Deportivo are an exception as they were unprepared, out of season, etc. etc. and can't be used as proof of weekly world class opposition that eL players have to play.
eoinh - you're right and I disagree that these lads could turn it on every single time for a big game - skill and experience would tell eventually. apart from wes I agree he is just that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
to be fair, hadjuk,malmo,nec and reikavik are no where near as good as depor - they're better than decent but none of those would have done brilliantly against depor/nantes.
I don't think cork raised their game - I reckon they are at least as good as they were against nantes in the second leg while shels showed they aren't all about muscle against hadjuk.
i do however think shels raised themselves against depor and that they and nantes are the only real top class oppostion irish teams have played this year.
I would have expected as much from cork in the intertoto (they got probably some of the harder teams in the draw too) and I would have expected shels to at least go close in the 2nd round depending on the side they got.
now however you have to say that wes is close to a call up. I agree he is a fantastic example of what good irish players can achieve at home. I just reckon it's a little early to be upset when he doesn't get a call up.
it's not like these lads have been ignored for years - it's only been a little while and I have to say I think a few of ye are been a bit impatient.
the best way I can put it is this: despite the shels players been match fit/on form that still isn't enough when you consider their hype/success is a recent phenom and the fact that they are now knockin on the door of the irish squad is massive in itself. soon we won't be happy unless the entire team is made up of players in the EL/top half of EPL
Beavis, any one player can only compete against what's put before him, the problem your argument has is that this year Shels and Cork City players have played a higher standard of opponent over periods of five/six weeks and a lot of players have stood out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beavis
Since all the English based players are only out of preseason, I don't doubt that Hoolahan is fitter than any of them, and he's proved he's got the skill to mix it with Deportivo la Coruna, even if it was only in one game.
You can argue again at Christmas that other players are better, but when it comes down to it, right now, Hoolahan is a match for any first division player in England
Thats really pathetic and typical of many posters here.You can't comment negetively on the eL without being branded as such.Not that its relevant,I don't follow an English club and I go to an eL game every other week.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Thats a fair point and one which I can't find an argument.Although ideally they would have to meet these standards on a weekly basis,the international calender only consist of a handful of games.Quote:
Originally Posted by ticktok
He never got a game in 2002 and he's beginning his descent now. How could he not be if he played in '98 and not '02. It doesn't matter if Iceland are internationals, it matters if they're any good, that's the whole debate. The Croatian used to be in the international team, he hasn't been in it for a while, since he moved from a big-name club in Italy. Nejmegen didn't have any internationals and I'ld say a few 1st division players would make the Dutch bench. And if the dutch team is so great, how did Ireland, a team of 1st divisioners beat them 0-1 in Holland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
I'd say Maybury and Heary would be around the same level. The SPL bar Old Firm is around the same level as the eL, I would however trust Brian Kerr to know which of the two is better. Depor can't be one of the best in the world if they don't play like it. If a two-year old takes the ball around Valeron, who is drunk and didn't want to play, should the two-year old be called up for Ireland? It's the same thing. And about Wes being better than Quinn, I already said he deserved a call-up.Quote:
Maybury is still in the latest squad, so we're comparing Heary to him and him alone, not O'Shea, Carr, Finnan et al. You can make all the excuses you want about Depor but they're still one of the best sides in the world and he still outshone them all going forward, like I said it's more than Quinns done all season for Sheffield United. He's gotten, I think, 20 minutes all told, and done nothing, aganst lower level English clubs. If that's more impressive then being class in five champions league matches, not to mention his nomation for U21 player of the year ahead of many people who went onto win caps and his preformances in the EL then there's something wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
Depor werent left play. Thats the whole point. The spainish league is by far the best league in Europe. Praising the scottish old firm and downgrading spainish football really doesnt help your argument.
Been reading this thread with interest, and while I love to see players from the league here get a chance, I think some of the Shels fans are getting a bit over excited after last week (Where admittedly they did do well) The one point I would make is that Brian Kerr, unlike previous Ireland managers, is making these decisions from a position of vast knowledge of the local game. You can be sure that he has seen plenty of Jason Byrne, Wes Hoolahan, Eoin Heary, and anyone else you care to mention. And remember, Alan Moore didn't get a call up while he was playing in the first division in England, so I honestly don't think there's any bias involved.
Split had a player who was in the Euro 2004 squad who played against Shels. He hadn't been in a squad since probably because Croatia hadn't played :confused: Nejmegen have a Dutch international on their books, not sure on the name but they do, and a first division player would make one of the most talented squads in the world? My arse they would. For your last question, it was a friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
If the SPL, bar the old firm, is the same level at the EL than Heary is twice the player Maybury is as Heary is far and away the best right back in the league and Maybury is not one of the best right backs in the SPL. What in the name of jaysus are you talking about Valeron being drunk, have I missed something big here? If you're trying to say Depor didn't want to play against Shels you're having a laugh, champions league third round qualifyer that if they lose their season could already be ruined and you're saying they didn't want to win, that's one of the most daft things I've ever seen if that's what you're saying.Quote:
I'd say Maybury and Heary would be around the same level. The SPL bar Old Firm is around the same level as the eL, I would however trust Brian Kerr to know which of the two is better. Depor can't be one of the best in the world if they don't play like it. If a two-year old takes the ball around Valeron, who is drunk and didn't want to play, should the two-year old be called up for Ireland? It's the same thing. And about Wes being better than Quinn, I already said he deserved a call-up.
Spain played last night. Some of the new players called up by the coach
Deportivo La Coruna left-back Enrique Romero, who already had six caps, was recalled as was his club-mate Victor Sanchez, who also had worn the Spain shirt on six occasions.