Irish national identity or Irish national identities?

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

To take the Åland Islands as an example; the nature of their inhabitants' identity is something that is by no means clear-cut and is something which remains under dispute to this day within both Finland and Sweden as well as on the islands themselves

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No idea of the details as I speak neither language, but to this outsider it looks clear-cut enough. They're Finns (part of sovereign Finland, which they accept I believe largely because Helsinki offers them autonomy which Stockholm might not), but they're also Swedes (speaking the langiage and identifying with others who do). What's the problem?

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How would that work exactly? One for the Irish nation and another for that other nation... What's it called again?

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You're the one who wants it, you tell me. But you need to get beyond that blind spot ie assuming that you can define the Irish nation and exclude those who disagree.

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what the Irish Republic does do is represent or channel an Irishness distinct from Britain or Britishness, which is undeniably the type of Irishness with which the vast majority of people on the island identify

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Aye, so what? The majority ain't 100%, you are simply ignoring the obvious minority that disagrees with you.

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For me, to consider Irish as a subset of Britishness is just something I cannot really accept, as is probably evident

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Your loss. It's a very restrictive, ostrich-like attitude.

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To me, viewing Irishness as a subset of Britishness would be like viewing Englishness as a subset of German

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Poor analogy. England and Germany are separate (though individual identities may overlap), part of Ireland is obviously part of Britain (the British state, to avoid confusion).

I'll avoid any BNP comparisons.

Regarding Åland;

Those born there have Finnish citizenship. The language spoken is Swedish (Swedish is spoken in other areas of Finland btw). Åland has its own "identity" that's seperate from Finland and Sweden. You'll find this out if you try to buy property there.

Those born in Åland represent Finland in international football (eg Daniel Sjölund, Djurgården). There's a club on the islands that plays in the top division of Finnish football - IFK Mariehamm.

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

So out of interest, what do you associate it with then ?

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My "Irishness"?

Very simple - I was born and bred on the island of Ireland, and am very proud of that.

My "Irishness" could be represented in various ways, including:

I support the representative teams of the IRISH Football Association.

If I was minded to be a soldier, I would apply to join the Royal IRISH Regiment.

My Patron Saint is St Patrick.

"Irishness" is not mono-cultural.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Your loss. It's a very restrictive, ostrich-like attitude.

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Indeed.

And, until some people learn to accept that reality, "Irish Unity" is merely a pipedream.

English & British
Welsh & British
Scottish & British
Irish & British.

It's not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

You're the one who wants it, you tell me. But you need to get beyond that blind spot ie assuming that you can define the Irish nation and exclude those who disagree.

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I was happy with a nationwide referendum. You were the one who preferred a "two-nationwide" vote. Just to iron the idea out, who would vote in which?

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Poor analogy. England and Germany are separate (though individual identities may overlap), part of Ireland is obviously part of Britain (the British state, to avoid confusion).

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It doesn't make the idea of Irishness being, in part, a British entity any less alien to me. The Faroese, for example, have a very strong national identity. They're obviously entitled to citizenship of Denmark, but to call them Danish nationals, in the strictest meaning of the word, or to refer to Faroese as a Danish identity wouldn't be correct.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Indeed.

And, until some people learn to accept that reality, "Irish Unity" is merely a pipedream.

English & British
Welsh & British
Scottish & British
Irish & British.

It's not rocket science.

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If anything, surely Northern Irish and British then?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

My "Irishness"?

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Is your 'Irishness' separate and distinct from your 'Northern Irishness' (if you consider yourself such)?

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Originally Posted by Predator

Is your 'Irishness' separate and distinct from your 'Northern Irishness' (if you consider yourself such)?

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My "Irishness" pertains to the fact that I was born and bred in Northern Ireland, on the island of Ireland.

I hold no allegiance whatsoever to the 26 County State which calls itself "Ireland", but I am Irish nonetheless.

Hmm. Interesting, if different, of a definition.

My experience of unionists in the North, despite this legitimate (and pretty unusual) view, is not too many see themselves 'as 'Irish' even by this definition. Mainly because they have no wish or aspiration to do so.

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

I was happy with a nationwide referendum. You were the one who preferred a "two-nationwide" vote. Just to iron the idea out, who would vote in which?

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There are two political nations in Ireland (separated by the border), and two main nationalities (not quite). So, any referendum of the type you suggest is by definition at least two-nationwide. In practice, as you know, there would be separate votes either side of the border, as there have been since the 1920s.

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It doesn't make the idea of Irishness being, in part, a British entity any less alien to me

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I don't expect you (nor the jobbing NI nationalist, nor indeed most people in Ireland) to like the idea, but being alienated (implying you think it's somehow unnatural or even totally unreasonable) by it is a bit bizarre? It's just avoiding long-standing reality.

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to call them Danish nationals, in the strictest meaning of the word, or to refer to Faroese as a Danish identity wouldn't be correct

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Er, it would. The Faeroes remain an autonomous region of Denmark, holding Danish passports, speaking the Danish language, attending Danish colleges, using Danish currency etc. Unlike you, I'm not suggesting any restriction on how they self-identify given all the above.

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If anything, surely Northern Irish and British then?

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For me and I think NB, "Northern Irish and British" and "Irish and British" are basically the same thing. Neither you nor anyone else have exclusive rights on the use of Irishness, as if it was a trademark used by Guinness's marketing or similar.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Is your 'Irishness' separate and distinct from your 'Northern Irishness' (if you consider yourself such)?

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See immediately above.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I don't expect you (nor the jobbing NI nationalist, nor indeed most people in Ireland) to like the idea, but being alienated (implying you think it's somehow unnatural or even totally unreasonable) by it is a bit bizarre? It's just avoiding long-standing reality.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

For me and I think NB, "Northern Irish and British" and "Irish and British" are basically the same thing. Neither you nor anyone else have exclusive rights on the use of Irishness, as if it was a trademark used by Guinness's marketing or similar.

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Are you not contradicting yourself? On the one hand you're telling Danny to accept reality while on the other hand you are saying nobody has exclusive rights on the use of Irishness.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Er, it would. The Faeroes remain an autonomous region of Denmark, holding Danish passports, speaking the Danish language, attending Danish colleges, using Danish currency etc. Unlike you, I'm not suggesting any restriction on how they self-identify given all the above.

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They speak their own language and they have there own currency although the Danish currency is accepted and the Danish language would be understood. Were you not there recently?

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

Thank you NB. I shall check back for the results of the 2010 survey, due anytime now.

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Released yesterday PP.

It seems more and more Catholics see their long term future best served in the Union - only 33% of Catholics now view Irish Unity as their long term preference.

They can bring on that Border Poll any time they like.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16012932.html

As there is only one Irish nation, the question is rather redundant.

The thread should've been titled 'Irish identity or Irish identities?', to which the answer is obviously the latter.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

As there is only one Irish nation, the question is rather redundant.

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It would appear not.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

There are two political nations in Ireland (separated by the border), and two main nationalities (not quite).

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I take GR to be saying that all identities to which he's referring are Irish, whether national or regional.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I take GR to be saying that all identities to which he's referring are Irish, whether national or regional.

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...which would be quite quaint.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Are you not contradicting yourself? On the one hand you're telling Danny to accept reality while on the other hand you are saying nobody has exclusive rights on the use of Irishness

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How does that contradict? He's claiming, or at least implying, an exclusive right; I'm not.

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They speak their own language and they have there own currency although the Danish currency is accepted and the Danish language would be understood. Were you not there recently?

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I didn't go personally (saving for Estonia). Doesn't their currency differ from Copenhagen's only in the same sense that Scottish and NI banks issues their own Sterling notes? Everyone speaks as well as understands Danish, do they not?

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Originally Posted by Fly

As there is only one Irish nation, the question is rather redundant......which would be quite quaint

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You're in denial.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

You're in denial.

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Where is this other Irish nation?

Er, Ireland. Stop stirring.

Great answer.

Dumb question.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Dumb question.

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Such caustic wit!