Barstoolers Love-In

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Originally Posted by oriel

I also cant stand the sight of a the tricolour flung across an advertising board at games, exactly what is their point ?

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Saw one today at Old Trafford and I thought of you Oriel.

I've noticed though over the last few years how much more this bugs me. And I mean really bugs me. To pass a pub in Dublin and watch grown men with their loyalty demonstrated by wearing a shirt from a team from a different country really grinds my gears especially when it's near an LOI stadium. To see Man U/Chelsea/Arsenal shirts outside Fagans and Kennedys really bugs me when Tolka is spitting distance away.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

really? ;)

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No; not really; that is, Ireland is a unique case in how a single sport has political and cultural dominance. The GAA was and is an essential part of 'official' Irish identity. The GAA was, as everyone knows, one of the forces in the cultural revival of the late 19th & early 20th century. Since then the GAA has been aggressive in defence of its position as one of the founding pillars of society in rural and lower middle class Ireland. Scandinavian 'handball skiing and ice hockey' do not carry the same social/political charge as the GAA does and football is not as 'officially' marginalised there as it is in Ireland. The good news is that despite the GAA's disdain for football as a garrison game, a foreign sport, it is in truth, the most popular, the most international, the most inclusive and open sport on this island. The bad news is that much of the interest in the sport is siphoned cross channel. Like a lot of the 'problems' we have here, there are certain vested interests who are happy to see it exported.

thanks for the history lesson but a couple of things.

1) read my post and the bit i quoted again. It was a good-humoured jab at Pineapples post.

2) America - baseball, Canada - hockey, New Zealand - rugby. Those are just 3 off the top of my head that are all sports of social, political and cultural significance and dominance. All strongly considered part of national or regional identity by their stakeholders, consituents and fans. We are not really that unique in that regards and certainly not as unique as we like to think.

Yeah, SkStu, I read your post. America and Canada and Australia are good examples. Football is officially frowned upon in those countries for different reasons too. But not for political reasons. Were there ever articles of the codes of these sports that forbade the playing of or participation in football? Were members of the police force or military of any of those countries prevented from playing football?
My point was that football is still thought of as a foreign game by people who are (though they probably don't know it) at best, anglophobes, at worst, xenophobes: barstoolers are an easy way of exporting the unclean.

I don't think that really matters much these days. The number of people who support English teams shows that football is very popular here.

definitely Stu.

B2BW - whats strange about the comparison you are making is that instead of one loony institution bearing influence over a society to the "detriment" of football, in America (and to a far lesser extent Canada) you actually have society at large railing against the sport in the name of nationalism/culture... very strange dynamic. It was never codified, obviously, as you mention but some of the results would have been similar.

Whats good is that both Ireland and America are now seeing beyond the bullsh1t that is inherent in the seperate arguments that are made against football and appreciating the game for what it is.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't think that really matters much these days. The number of people who support English teams shows that football is very popular here.

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Yeah, I agree: football is the most popular game here. From where I'm watching, though, the continuing hegemony of the GAA at the expense of football matters a lot to lot of people.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Assuming you mean Norway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Norway



I think Norway is a pretty apt comparison. Going by UEFA's league rankings, the overall quality of football on offer there might be adjudged to be slightly superior but certainly isn't miles ahead of the standard evident in the League of Ireland. The Norwegian league is ranked 26th with a coefficient of 14.375 over the last five seasons whereas the League of Ireland finds itself ranked 31st with a coefficient of 8.708 over the past five seasons.

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The standards of the Tippeligaen and Adeccoligaen are massively ahead of the LoI (I can qualify this on the fact I watch games in both leagues regularly). I would equate the LoI in it's current state as equal to the lower half of the Adeccoligaen and the top half of the Fair Play Ligaen.

Also - EVERY single Tippeligaen game is available live on national TV and the Internet. Same with selected games in the Adeccoligaen - the average LoI fan is lucky to be able to see their team play on TV more than 5 or 6 times a season...

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Originally Posted by Réiteoir

The standards of the Tippeligaen and Adeccoligaen are massively ahead of the LoI (I can qualify this on the fact I watch games in both leagues regularly). I would equate the LoI in it's current state as equal to the lower half of the Adeccoligaen and the top half of the Fair Play Ligaen.

Also - EVERY single Tippeligaen game is available live on national TV and the Internet. Same with selected games in the Adeccoligaen - the average LoI fan is lucky to be able to see their team play on TV more than 5 or 6 times a season...

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If the average LOI fan happens to support, Bohs, Shams, Sligo and Derry...

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

If the average LOI fan happens to support, Bohs, Shams, Sligo and Derry...

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Wouldn't even include us in that. Bohs, Shams, Pat's and Derry I'd say.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

In fairness, that's nothing to do with the Premiership; that was always the case, even back in the day when LoI teams had respectable attendances. Phil Lynott was a Man Utd fan, for example. Irish players going abroad to the big English clubs ensured an extra interest in that club here. Gods versus Mortals highlights that point very well, I think.


Try handball, skiing and ice hockey for starters. Norway's similar. The notion that Ireland is unique in having the GAA as a competing sport is just wrong.

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totaly disagree with u apples and oranges!

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Originally Posted by monkey9

Plus Dublin is closer to Liverpool than any other city in Ireland. Imagine if the Danish league was one of the top two or three leagues in Europe. How would Norway be then?

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Well, mentioning Denmark:

Population: 5.6 million
Average Premier Division attendance: 8315

And the German league, the best supported in Europe, is just a train ride away.


Edit: Also, attendances have more than doubled since 1991, so it's not like, say, Scotland, where there has always been a culture of massive attendances at domestic games.

The lower leagues in England manage to survive despite the EPL / SKY etc and perhaps they should be more of a focal point for LOI than EPL. Many footie fans across the lower leagues support a (sometimes distant) EPL side while also supporting their local club in lower/non League. I have always believed that any football fan that attends live games will never be fully happy to survive on a diet of TV football (especially so among younger fans), LOI should be seeking to be their weekly fix between their 2/3 trips a year to UK.
The almost evangelical zest with which many LOI fans ridicule anyone daring to express an interest in an English side hardly sends out a warm welcome.
Yes, those ********s on the Premiership in replica shirts talking about "we" made me as embarrassed as anyone but unfortunately they are the most likely target market to develop the LOI.

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Yes, those ********s on the Premiership in replica shirts talking about "we" made me as embarrassed as anyone but unfortunately they are the most likely target market to develop the LOI.

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Are they really?

You'll find that actually only a small % of them have any real interest. Ask them what their fixtures are for the next month/six weeks and most of them will struggle.

Like most facets of Irish life, they like to involved in a movement on the "big occasions" and thus they will turn up in their droves for televised games. These lads don't want the drudgery of actually supporting the team week in week out, much easier to just peruse the tabloids of a Friday, watch MOTD/PSS and then opine about it for the next few days.

Actually going to games? You must be joking.

We could throw millions at that "target market" and you'd still not convert many. You are going up aganst a phenomenally well oiled machine remember, an organisation that quite frankly would prefer if people just watched the game on TV rather than attending it.

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Originally Posted by Réiteoir

The standards of the Tippeligaen and Adeccoligaen are massively ahead of the LoI (I can qualify this on the fact I watch games in both leagues regularly). I would equate the LoI in it's current state as equal to the lower half of the Adeccoligaen and the top half of the Fair Play Ligaen.

Also - EVERY single Tippeligaen game is available live on national TV and the Internet. Same with selected games in the Adeccoligaen - the average LoI fan is lucky to be able to see their team play on TV more than 5 or 6 times a season...

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Last time my team were live on tv was the 1982 Cup final. In fact come to think of it not even sure it was live but recall watching 83 live.

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Originally Posted by MariborKev

Are they really?

You'll find that actually only a small % of them have any real interest. Ask them what their fixtures are for the next month/six weeks and most of them will struggle.

Like most facets of Irish life, they like to involved in a movement on the "big occasions" and thus they will turn up in their droves for televised games. These lads don't want the drudgery of actually supporting the team week in week out, much easier to just peruse the tabloids of a Friday, watch MOTD/PSS and then opine about it for the next few days.

Actually going to games? You must be joking.

We could throw millions at that "target market" and you'd still not convert many. You are going up aganst a phenomenally well oiled machine remember, an organisation that quite frankly would prefer if people just watched the game on TV rather than attending it.

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I reckon the current generation of barstoolers might largely be lost, but kids and teenagers who aren't too set in their ways still could convert. I didn't start getting into LOI until I was about 16 or 17, and there's no history in my family of being big LOI fans.

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Originally Posted by MariborKev

Are they really?

You'll find that actually only a small % of them have any real interest. Ask them what their fixtures are for the next month/six weeks and most of them will struggle.

Like most facets of Irish life, they like to involved in a movement on the "big occasions" and thus they will turn up in their droves for televised games. These lads don't want the drudgery of actually supporting the team week in week out, much easier to just peruse the tabloids of a Friday, watch MOTD/PSS and then opine about it for the next few days.

Actually going to games? You must be joking.

We could throw millions at that "target market" and you'd still not convert many. You are going up aganst a phenomenally well oiled machine remember, an organisation that quite frankly would prefer if people just watched the game on TV rather than attending it.

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true ,go to a sports bar when irish rugger is on and watch the ladies in there jerseys cheering when the lads do.

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Originally Posted by MariborKev

Are they really?

You'll find that actually only a small % of them have any real interest. Ask them what their fixtures are for the next month/six weeks and most of them will struggle.

Like most facets of Irish life, they like to involved in a movement on the "big occasions" and thus they will turn up in their droves for televised games. These lads don't want the drudgery of actually supporting the team week in week out, much easier to just peruse the tabloids of a Friday, watch MOTD/PSS and then opine about it for the next few days.

Actually going to games? You must be joking.

We could throw millions at that "target market" and you'd still not convert many. You are going up aganst a phenomenally well oiled machine remember, an organisation that quite frankly would prefer if people just watched the game on TV rather than attending it.

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Not disagreeing with you MK that 90% of these are never going to change but at least, as a group, they have SOME level of interest in football and a certain amount could be enticed to a LOI game, as opposed to someone with no interest in football/sport or bogball fanatic that believes all footie fans are going to hell :rolleyes:
Would never expect LOI to replace (or even add to) the EPL for most of them but I do believe there is some that, once they experienced the "joy" of LOI on a wet,cold evening would be converted.

It is a funny thing that you rarely see Irish National flags at LOI games and are almost more likely to see them at EPL grounds (trying to convince someone ?????) or indeed the tricolour factory in the East end of Glasgow :D

Have found myself that most the people that convert over to watching LOI do so because they go to a few games with a mate and get hooked. Its very hard to target certain groups especially ones that are set in their ways of watching football on the telly (of lets be honest a higher standard) with their mates in the pub. What gets most people hooked to LOI is rarely the standard and more the enjoyment of live matches and live atmosphere. What I find is great to see is a lot of LOI grounds are now full of young fans who are growing up watching LOI. Its up to the adults that are into it now to get the younger generation interested. As far as I'm concerned 90% of people over the age of 20 are lost to the english game as they are usually set in their ways since they where children.

The schools, the local clubs, the local youth centres are where clubs need to be going. There really is no point trying to convert people that don't want to be converted. Wasted time and energy if you ask me.

Like a lot of people I know I didn't get into LOI till I was about 15 or 16. It just wasn't accessible for me to go to a LOI game on my own if I wanted as I was too young so watching a match on telly was much easier. Its for this reason games need to be more family friendly to entice mothers and fathers to bring their kids. Our grounds need to be cleaner, safer and have more facilities. Look at Tallaght Stadium, a lot of the reason people go to Rovers games is they know they have a nice ground that accessible easily that they can sit and enjoy a game with their kids. Compare that to Limerick below in Jackman Park, 1 stand with a few seats on one side and a hill on the other side. Its not the most appealing place to entice new fans. Limerick are currently trying to address it with a move back to the Markets Field but until this is done I can see why it is tough to get people in the gates.

The League needs serious investment. With the right people in place and the right investment this league can be sorted out. Much easier said than done though. That goes down right down to Junior level too. Look at the amount of clubs with poor facilities that the parents let there kids play for the club but if the club tries to sell some lotto tickets or try to do fundraising the same parents don't want to know about it.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Saw one today at Old Trafford and I thought of you Oriel.

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No other national flag seems so prevalent as the Irish tricolour in Premier League grounds. Having seen some highlights on 'Match of the Day', there was one behind the net at Goodison Park with Everton printed across it, another being waved high and proud as the teams came at White Hart Lane and that one at Old Trafford of which you speak. I didn't spot any other national flags at all, in fact.