Irish Language Question

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Hm.

I think it's generally accepted that there's a much bigger difference between Irish dialects and English accents around the country, to the extent that you'd hear of Irish "dialects" and English "accents". A dialect is a step up in independence from an accent.

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Fair point. I can't really debate it either, as my experience of the various varieties of Irish is limited (and half-forgotten). I don't recall too much in the way of actual words and phrases varying, just accents (some, granted, quite thick). Maybe they are careful to limit their vocabulary for material for schools. Can a gaelgoir enlighten us?

Anyway, as long as anyone who insists Ulster Scots is a language gets a solid cyeack oon da nads, I'm happy to call the local versions of Irish dialects or whatever.

There are major differences in words and phrases as well as the pronunciation of words (not just related to accent). One small one that springs to mind (but wouldn't impede understanding) is the common word 'raibh' pronounced rev in Munster and row (as in argument) in Connacht. My Irish would be reasonable, but not perfect by any means, but Mr Bluemovie Snr is a Kerryman and native speaker and he sometimes struggles to understand Donegal Irish.

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Originally Posted by bluemovie

There are major differences in words and phrases as well as the pronunciation of words (not just related to accent). One small one that springs to mind (but wouldn't impede understanding) is the common word 'raibh' pronounced rev in Munster and row (as in argument) in Connacht. My Irish would be reasonable, but not perfect by any means, but Mr Bluemovie Snr is a Kerryman and native speaker and he sometimes struggles to understand Donegal Irish.

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I'm reminded of a conversation a few UCD fans had with some kids at a Longford match many years ago, which ended with the kids asking, "Wail, how do you pronounce c'yarr?" A Londoner, told this story might ask if the kids were just "'avin' a larf?" There was a rumour (I presume it didn't happen) that Cheryl Cole was to be subtitled in the US (certainly, she was told to tone down the accent). A few words pronounced differently doesn't make a dialect, nor does an accent which is tough to make out.

Ok it was a bad example. There are words and phrases that only exist in one dialect or another though. I'm just not the most expert person to explain. I'm pretty sure, for instance, that 'tarna' meaning 2nd only appears in Munster Irish and is meaningless elsewhere, but again, I'm stuck for examples.

I think the examples for a basic phrase like "How are you?" show some of the differences. OK, in English you can say "Howaya" or "Aw'righ' mate?", but even those can transcend locations. In fact, "How are you?" is the phrase wikipedia looks at when concluding this about Irish dialects -

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Originally Posted by wikipedia

he differences between dialects are considerable, and have led to recurrent difficulties in defining standard Irish

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Originally Posted by wikipedia

Ulster Irish sounds very different and shares several features with southern dialects of Scottish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic

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And also, I'm sure if my Irish was better, I'd have less difficulty with Ulster Irish. And yeah, Ulster Scoots isn't a language.

omg i am so confused now!!!!!

How hard is it to actually learn irish?

I mean, my idea of it is that because it's such an old language then unlike modern languages like french/spanish there cannot be that much to it. There are bound to be LOADS of modern day words and phrases for which there is no irish translation for, right?

Or am I totally wrong here?

It's part of the culture of this island but my school never gave the option to learn it all those years back. I had to do poxy spanish instead.

You'd be surprised. Words like "computer" and "internet" and others which you'd think - being relatively modern inventions - would have no Irish equivalent do have translations (ríomhaire, gréasán - calculator, network). Other words - particularly scientific ones - wouldn't be English in origin anyway, so it's not that big a deal that Irish uses similar phrases - the microbiology department in UCD is "mícrobitheolaíocht", which sounds like a cop out, but the word microbiology itself comes from three Greek words (mikros, bios and logia). But in everyday language, I'd say the vast majority of words we use are very old, and have perfectly serviceable Irish equivalents. Your post includes no idea newer than a couple of hundred years old, I'd say. The only word there's probably no direct translation for is "poxy", but there's other words for that.

Learning it isn't that hard I think. Probably the hardest part is finding a medium for keeping from rusting up. I was down in two parts of the Gaeltacht at the weekend (Connemara and the Dingle peninsula) and heard one word of Irish spoken in that time "chicken kiev agus burger". It is different from most other languages - it's not like knowing Spanish and learning Portuguese, for example. Syntactically, it's different and the word order can throw you (You don't say "I am a teacher", for example - you have to say something like "I am in my teachership". There's no words for "Yes" or "No" either. Stuff like that)

The only other issue is whether it's worth learning. I don't think there's anyone alive who speaks only Irish and no other languages. Your choice of books in Irish is very limited - I'm told you can get Harry Potter, but you can get that in English too. The news is in English and Irish. There's bugger all practical advantage to be gained from learning it. But it is handy as a secret code abroad, or as a conversation topic. And some of the phrases are wonderfully descriptive - "Uisce beatha", "Staighre beo" and "Craiceann a bhualadh le" for example; they mean "Whiskey", "Escalator" and "To have sex with", but literally translate as "Water of life", "Living stairs" and "To meet the skin with"; it's worth learning the language for those kind of insights alone.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Your choice of books in Irish is very limited - I'm told you can get Harry Potter, but you can get that in English too.

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There's a dubbed version of Happy Potter as gaelige as well. TG4 showed it at Christmas, but I'm not sure if it's available to buy.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And some of the phrases are wonderfully descriptive - "Uisce beatha", "Staighre beo" and "Craiceann a bhualadh le" for example; they mean "Whiskey", "Escalator" and "To have sex with", but literally translate as "Water of life", "Living stairs" and "To meet the skin with"; it's worth learning the language for those kind of insights alone.

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I learned "to have sex" as "ag bualadh craiceann" which also translates as "beating leather"!

Speaking of dubbed versions, I love the way TG4 not only dubs the likes of The Muppet Show and South Park, but tries to get the voices right as well.

Whiskey = water of life? Brilliant! :D

Is there any 'bad' words in Irish? it's not something you would learn in school but seems strange if there isn't

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Originally Posted by Red Army

Is there any 'bad' words in Irish? it's not something you would learn in school but seems strange if there isn't

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only swear word I ever learned was shlite-tarbh (terrible spelling there, it's pronounced sh-lit-eh tarv) which is bullsh!t
Never learned it in Irish class, our geography teacher used it repeatedly

Cac tarbh was the one I heard for that, but I think it was a makey-uppey phrase (a literal translation rather than a genuine phrase).

There's a thread on boards about it, but again, a lot of the phrases seem to be just literal translations of English ones.

Póg mo thóin is the obvious one that everyone'd know.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Póg mo thóin is the obvious one that everyone'd know.

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So well known that The Wire had a pair of minor Irish-American police officers called Polk and Mahon (they pronounced it Mahone).

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Originally Posted by John83

So well known that The Wire had a pair of minor Irish-American police officers called Polk and Mahon (they pronounced it Mahone).

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Is "póg mo thóin" pronounced "polk ma-hone" then? I have no idea how to pronounce irish words based off their spelling. I feel like I'm missing out. :(

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Originally Posted by awec

Is "póg mo thóin" pronounced "polk ma-hone" then? I have no idea how to pronounce irish words based off their spelling. I feel like I'm missing out. :(

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No, more like powg muh hone, but Polk sounds close enough.

See, I always thought it was as it was written, so thoin rhymed with "loin", as in a bit of meat. :D

Irish is taught so badly in schools. How much better a state would the language be in if students were taught practical, interesting stuff, instead of having to read godawful pieces of ****e like gafa, and ancient poetry that bears almost no resemblance to modern, living Irish.

I've maintained a similar stance for years, that Irish would be better taught the same way French, Spanish and German are, i.e. as a foreign language.
I left school speaking far better French than Irish.

In Paris in 2009, I was finally able to put it into use, and didn't do too badly.