Diaspora Voting

I’m in two minds about this. On one hand, I would like to see citizens resident overseas (not passport holders born overseas) given some voting rights. We bleat on enough about how important our citizens overseas are, and how we should be tapping into everything they offer the oul’ sod – experience, contacts and money mainly – but don’t give them much in return. On the other hand, I don’t see how we could put something acceptable into place that gives them meaningful votes, without diluting institutions here.

Logistics first: let’s face it, local authorities have enough problems maintaining an accurate electoral register of people actually living here, without adding another – what did Macy cite? – 3.5m names to the list. Who handles that register? Secondly, do we offer postal voting, or make overseas citizens traipse en masse to the closest embassy/diplomatic mission? Thirdly, what constituencies would voters vote in: a new, national constituency, or the last one in which the voter was resident before emigrating?

Then there’s the type of election. Would there be interest in council elections? There’s little enough interest domestically. I don’t like the idea of votes for the Dáil. For me, taxation and representation go hand in hand. A Seanad vote doesn’t get around this, since the Seanad also debates that legislation. And why should overseas citizens have the right to vote for an institution that most resident citizens are not allowed to? Referenda affect the citizen’s rights when domiciled here, so why should anybody overseas have a say?

Presidential and EU elections offer some prospects. Neither returns candidates with any real power, unfortunately. But both have representational roles that are more internationally focussed than domestic, and the 13 MEPs could be configured into one national STV or list constituency.

In all of these, there is the problem that distance distorts understanding of issues. That said, if overseas votes lessened the plague of clientelism and brokerage and gombeenism I’d be all for it.

Finally, and the worst argument against it, but one the Dept of Finance will trot out (and invariably uses as its trump card for everything): it will make elections and votes far too expensive. Sadly, that's the winning line in this debate.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

As has been pointed out several times, you don't have to pay taxes over here. You pay your taxes in Ireland and you can vote all you want fella.

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But Im sure as an Irish citizen I am entitled to have a voice in the running of the country?
Jesus how many people in Ireland pay tax anyway - if that's your criteria?

Not many out of the tax net now bennocelt, plus even if you're out of the income tax net if you're resident you pay indirect taxes. However, I still think residence is the issue - you are simply not nearly effected by Government policy (not simply economic policy) if you are not resident in the state.

I personally think the number of residents who don't get a vote is a bigger issue (only Irish and UK citizens resident in the state get a general election vote). Surely they're more deserving than citizens abroad who may only qualify through previous generations?

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

But Im sure as an Irish citizen I am entitled to have a voice in the running of the country?

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Not until you start paying taxes here again, no.

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Jesus how many people in Ireland pay tax anyway - if that's your criteria?

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Ever hear of VAT?

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

Referenda affect the citizen’s rights when domiciled here, so why should anybody overseas have a say?

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Because we may plan to be domiciled in the state in the future. Indeed, in the case of the North, 'It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland'. Any changes to the constitution will effect us if and when that comes to pass.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Ever hear of VAT?

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I certainly have, and fuel duty and alcohol duty, and road tolls. Still don't think it justifies us getting a vote in elections to the Dáil, but I do think the south should set up a booth on the bridge at Strabane, so I can get my rebate on the way back into the North

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Not until you start paying taxes here again, no.



Ever hear of VAT?

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But I do - its a postal vote:D

Jesus Dahamsta please, thats like something I might hear from a FM104 talkshow:o

i live in derry, and do a fair amount of border hopping. i do contribute (in a small way) to the irish economy, but not compared to the contribution i make to the british exchequer. unless i move over the border and am directly affected by and contribute substantially (from a personal perspective) to the economy of the state, i dont see that i really have any right to ask for a say in how its run. i dont avail of its social services or its health system, i dont shop there on a daily basis, any social contributions are made in my home town (in the north), so i cant even claim to contribute to the state socially and culturally.

i think some folks are confusing the irish state and the irish nation, two very different things.

oh, and i really dont want a presidential vote. im not taking the blame for the likes of bertie bluff becoming head of the state, youse can hang on that one yourself (if and when it happens - lets face it, its not a remote possibility).

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Because we may plan to be domiciled in the state in the future.

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And when you do, you can vote. See how that works? ;)

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Jesus Dahamsta please, thats like something I might hear from a FM104 talkshow:o

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I don't really know what you mean by that, but I'm guessing I could channel Father Ted in response:

"Funny how you get more right wing as you get older."

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Because we may plan to be domiciled in the state in the future. Indeed, in the case of the North, 'It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland'. Any changes to the constitution will effect us if and when that comes to pass.

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And equally, citizens overseas may have no plans to return. Or their plans may be shelved. Or they may have good intentions, never acted on (The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley" and all that...)

And until those hypothetical constitutional changes come to pass, I doff my cap to Shantykelly for a perceptive point about differentiating between the state and the nation...

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

And equally, citizens overseas may have no plans to return. Or their plans may be shelved. Or they may have good intentions, never acted on (The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley" and all that...)

And until those hypothetical constitutional changes come to pass, I doff my cap to Shantykelly for a perceptive point about differentiating between the state and the nation...

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What do you mean hypothetical? :P

I think it's an honourable idea to consider the diaspora in elections.

In Spain the overseas constituency have seats in the parliament and they can only vote for people who are based overseas to sit in Madrid.

In Britain you can register to vote for up to 15 years after you move abroad for General and European elections only.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governme...ions/DG_073241

I think that there is merit in this discussion and I think that a serious consideration should be given to proposals such as this to modernise our political system.
AS was pointed out to me by an Irish friend in Sweden, she can't vote in an Irish general election in Sweden but if she was to become a Swedish citizen [(or any Swedish citizen) for that matter] can vote in Swedish elections in Ireland! Straight away this discrepancy is clearly unfair. I'm sure I can apply the same logic to American, Polish and other citizens who can avail of their right whilst resident abroad. Right being the operative word.

We should consider this in line with opening the franchise to the other Irish citizens on this island who do not have a say in their nation. This being a can of worms issue with no doubt a cyclical argument ready to be debated.

BonnieShels, i think there are pros and cons for both sides. I would disagree with it, mainly because unless i spend the majority of my time resident in the state, or even based abroad and pay taxes at home, i don't think its entirely right for my choices to affect someone else when they are going to have a reduced influence on me. the whole career break thing is a tricky one, and something i had never really considered until i decided to take one and go abroad for a while myself. but i have largely resigned myself to the fact that i am removing myself from my community, even if it is only for a year, and have to accept the disadvantages that come from that. that and the logistics of the matter outweigh, for me, the feasibility of extending the franchise beyond current residents of the state. what constituency would i be situated in, living in derry. donegal north east? bit unfair on the inishowen residents to wipe out their voice by the sudden addition of 50-60000 adults in the city alone. and what decisions or representation could a deputy carry out on my behalf or provide me with? legally im resident in another state.
the state is the current political machine of the majority of the irish people, but it is not the irish people. the state can be reformed, altered, corrupted, torn down, built up a whole lot easier than the irish nation can. the state is a collection of laws and regulations, organisations and political parties. the nation is (to me anyway) our shared history and culture, our common ability to laugh at anyone and anything no matter what the situation, a willingness to never give up, and all the other guff that bord failte trot out every so often. it may be embarrassing, but it is what we as a people are. that pale imitation of westminster that sits in leinster house isn't.
im not that annoyed that i don have a say in electing the dail, at least i cant be blamed for fianna fail.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

But I do - its a postal vote:D

Jesus Dahamsta please, thats like something I might hear from a FM104 talkshow:o

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Actually Dahamsta you were correct I dont have a postal vote - I mistakenly thought that all Citizens were entitled to one abroad (like the yanks have). Silly me as I wanted to give Mammy Rourke my number one - damn it:mad:

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Straight away this discrepancy is clearly unfair. I'm sure I can apply the same logic to American, Polish and other citizens who can avail of their right whilst resident abroad. Right being the operative word.

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But is it a fair comparison - we've more Irish Citizens abroad than who are resident? Can the same be said of your examples? Also, your friend would be able to vote in Swedish elections in Ireland, but not Irish elections in Ireland, as things stand!

Nope, 'fraid not.

People on holiday abroad should have a postal vote though, as long as it's implemented securely. People have to book ridiculously far in advance these days, to fit with employers and so they don't pay crazy prices.

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

And equally, citizens overseas may have no plans to return. Or their plans may be shelved. Or they may have good intentions, never acted on (The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley" and all that...)

And until those hypothetical constitutional changes come to pass, I doff my cap to Shantykelly for a perceptive point about differentiating between the state and the nation...

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And I doff my cap to the very topical Burns quote.

But the examples Shantykelly gave are in the grant of the Dáil. Thats why there should be no vote in Dail elections to those living outside the state.

But it isn't fair that someone could leave the country for a couple of years, and come back to find constitutional neutrality had been abandoned, without ever being given a say.

Which raises another question, do soldiers get a vote if they are in Lebanon or somewhere like that?

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

But it isn't fair that someone could leave the country for a couple of years, and come back to find constitutional neutrality had been abandoned, without ever being given a say.

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It's perfectly fair. If you want a say in how the country is run, stay in the country and make a contribution to it.

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Which raises another question, do soldiers get a vote if they are in Lebanon or somewhere like that?

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Yes. Somebody quoted and linked the relevant legislation earlier in the thread.

i honestly feel like i have given up my right to a say on the affairs of the country. That said, i dont feel particularly bothered about having much of a say in Canadian federal, provincial and municipal affairs either. I am comforted by the fact that there is an opportunity for my offspring to have a say in the country in the future should we ever relocate or should they ever move there. Ireland will be a huge part of their lives.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

It's perfectly fair. If you want a say in how the country is run, stay in the country and make a contribution to it.

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How do you feel about somebody who is working abroad for an Irish company and, while they pay their personal tax in the country they're living in, the job they're doing provides taxes from the company for the Irish revenue service?

The same. The employee is not the company.

Even though the company may be contributing more tax by getting foreign contracts and sending workers abroad than they would by not doing so?

I think people can contribute to a country in ways other than personal taxes, and such a member of the company, as well as aiding the company's (and consequently Ireland's) increased revenue, through demonstrating their own ability and that of their company, is in a small way advertising Ireland and its businesses in such a way that might see more foreign contracts granted to Irish companies in the future.

Similarly, people who work for agencies such as Tourism Ireland in a foreign office, and who work to promote Ireland as a tourist destination, are, in my view, definitely contributing to the country, albeit not through personal tax.