Well done FF!

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Oh no, don't get me wrong whilst what they've done since 1997 is reprehensible, I think the treachery and vandalism of the last 3 years is more worthy of discussion and consideration.

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I completely disagree. The 2007-2010 period has been characterized by equal parts incompetence, naivety and arrogance from FF.

However what preceded it was over a decade of fraud, cover ups and general undemocratic behaviour.

This is in no way aimed at you, but I can't help but think many of the people who focus on the last couple of years of FF government as the root of the problem do so to hide the shame that they voted in successive FF governments long after it was clear what Charlie, Bertie and Co were up to.

FFS look at the current Election thread and the one from the last General Election someone bumped a month or so ago. Where have all the FF voters gone? Re-writing history to suit their conscience that's where.

I'd agree with ORA. Their actions and decisions (limited as there were) since 2007 just compounded their mistakes of the previous 10 years.

It's not really shocking that people would focus on the last 3 years - hell, FF still have some people thinking everything was grand up until then.

A load of people vote FF down my way bacuase of things like resurfaced raods, grants for digging wells, helping out GAA teams etc etc. The big picture problem is that poeple down here and in the majority of rural areas vote people into the national Dail on local issues.

There needs to be a total reform of politics in this country and its something I don't see happening anytime soon.

We need to get local councils more power and authority to deal with thier own issues, we need to halve the number of TD's and elect these people from Broader constituencies on national issues and get them to run the country.

People must also be qualified in certain posts, i.e the Minister for finance must have at minimum an economics degree, Minster for Justice should be at minimum a practising lawyer etc. etc.

As a democracy, we must also accept a certain amount of responsibility as we have voted these clowns in constantly over the past 13 years. I've certainly asked myself the question over the past few months - ok I never voted for FF ever in my whole life, but maybe I should get more involved in politics with parties I do like and help shift this balance of power. Sittting on my árse complaining about it, won't help.

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FFS look at the current Election thread and the one from the last General Election someone bumped a month or so ago. Where have all the FF voters gone? Re-writing history to suit their conscience that's where.

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I have a feeling they'll be out again come what maybe another farce of an election. Many on here post that FF support is greater than what people give on opionion polls. Once the safty net of the ballot booth is there they vote as they always do, their parents did and their parnets before them.

Joe Duffy had a women on from Clontarf (well actually kerry but I couldn't resist) who was "black Fianna Fail" and Black FF all her life was how she put it, and who was giving out yards about them. When pushed on what she thought of kenny she said no way would she vote for Fine Gael. When asked about Gilmore, "i don't know the man but i'd never vote for him" meaning A) she'll vote for the monster looney raving party (aka J Healy Rae et al), or she'll be wearing a balaclava at M Ferries' Funeral.

In essence she'll be voting FF at the next election.

And so the healing begins.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Which is why you replied WFT instead of WTF! :bigsmile:

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LOL, so I did!

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I completely disagree. The 2007-2010 period has been characterized by equal parts incompetence, naivety and arrogance from FF.

However what preceded it was over a decade of fraud, cover ups and general undemocratic behaviour.

This is in no way aimed at you, but I can't help but think many of the people who focus on the last couple of years of FF government as the root of the problem do so to hide the shame that they voted in successive FF governments long after it was clear what Charlie, Bertie and Co were up to.

FFS look at the current Election thread and the one from the last General Election someone bumped a month or so ago. Where have all the FF voters gone? Re-writing history to suit their conscience that's where.

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You are completely right on all counts. I've never voted FF and I never would unless the choice was them and... actually no I would probably find a way to vote PUP before them.
The reason I mentioned from 2007 onwards was that was when all of Bertie's skeleton finally burst forth and they still somehow managed to wangle that election victory.

Fr Damo, I mentioned that Liveline incident in the other thread. I had to turn the radio off lsitening to her. I really don't understand how she can make these aspertions about Kenny and see nowt wrong with FF. But that's the nature of the cult.

My old man lives in Sweden these days and he reckons the Swedish system is the berries. I don't know the exact details, but apparently the parties put forward a list of candidates, who you can vote against but not for. Then you vote the party, not the candidate, which puts paid to the road-resurfacing votes.

Now my old man's a bit - ok: way, way - more right wing than me these days* so I mightn't necessarily agree with him if I look into the details, but it's certainly an interesting way of going about it. All that being said, Sweden is swinging to the right at the moment, so it certainly doesn't put paid to pendulum politics.

adam


* Ted Crilly: Funny how you get more right wing as you get older.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

My old man lives in Sweden these days and he reckons the Swedish system is the berries. I don't know the exact details, but apparently the parties put forward a list of candidates, who you can vote against but not for. Then you vote the party, not the candidate, which puts paid to the road-resurfacing votes.

Now my old man's a bit - ok: way, way - more right wing than me these days* so I mightn't necessarily agree with him if I look into the details, but it's certainly an interesting way of going about it. All that being said, Sweden is swinging to the right at the moment, so it certainly doesn't put paid to pendulum politics.

adam


* Ted Crilly: Funny how you get more right wing as you get older.

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That sounds like a wonderful system. How does it work. Are the party lists national or regional? Can you vote against candidates from more than one party? Or just from the party you vote for?

A friend of mine at work here in Belgium - his missus is Swedish, he was telling me you vote for the party - this bit is mandatory, and on a separate ballot paper there is a list of candidates and you can vote for a particular candidate if you like as well. I'm not sure how that would be counted up though. The only reason I know this was that his wife had to get a piece of paper signed on a postal vote - 2 people needed to sign it - that weren't related to her, and being the good European that I am, I signed it for her. He was telling me as well that if she made it home on the day of the election she could change her mind and head up to the ballot box and vote again, her postal vote is then discarded. All sorts of cool stuff up there.

I assume plenty of people don't bother changing thier mind, as he pointed out to me "sure if its wasn't one crowd making a b@lls of it - it would be the other shower"

I'm not aware of the swedish system, but I really don't see the list system as we often see proposed here as by anyway the panacea it's made out to be. Look at the quality of the Taoiseach's nominee's to the senate for the type of people, FF for example, would have on their list. Would it genuinely be independent thinkers and specialists, or the worst kind of political cronies?

Not sure specific qualifications are that relevant either. We have a crap Minister of Justice who was a solicitor, who replaced a crap Minister of Justice who was Barrister. Also, some of the worst Minister for Finance/ Chancellors both here and the UK have been economists. Look how many economists predicted a soft landing for the housing bubble - would we really want a Marc Coleman or a Jim Power as Minister for Finance?

Blaming the system is a bit of a cop out for the electorate imo.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Not sure specific qualifications are that relevant either. We have a crap Minister of Justice who was a solicitor, who replaced a crap Minister of Justice who was Barrister. Also, some of the worst Minister for Finance/ Chancellors both here and the UK have been economists. Look how many economists predicted a soft landing for the housing bubble - would we really want a Marc Coleman or a Jim Power as Minister for Finance?

Blaming the system is a bit of a cop out for the electorate imo.

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But surely you would agree that a Finance Minister should not be left apply for the job unless he has an economics degree, true it doesn't guarentee he'll be good, but the point I was trying to make was that a minimum standard should be required before one is even considered. You don't need any qualifications to run for office as it stands.

As for blaming the system being a cop out, agreed, but seeing as we have a bunch of politicians who have systematically mis-managed and have been seen as basically being unable to run the country ( I can only assume the EU and IMF don't think we can - that's why they are here ) surely now is the time to put forward alternatives.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Jesus, did you even read the whole of the first post?

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Ha mmmm - Think I read it a little too quickly, lol:o:o

As opposed to the majority of Foot.iers who voted for FF last time around and who have now gone AWOL - i have never voted for FF and never will - but no one can honestly say that FG and Labour are going to set the world alite - granted they are better than FF, but then so would the monster raving loony party.
Its going to be SF, Independents or socialist party for me again, as always

Does anyone have an opinion on Morgan Kellys view about FF and FG gone in a few years to be replaced by some anti-EU party filling the vacuum?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Blaming the system is a bit of a cop out for the electorate imo.

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This is the crux of the matter and in this country this is the major problem. We are a very lazy nation who would rather excuse our reasons for doing or not doing anything than actually justify a proper reason for voting or not voing for someone.

"Oooh Enda looks slimy. Ah sure Bertie's a nice fella. Ah Charlie is an oul rogue. Gilmore is a dynamic go getter."

Oh and bennocelt. I didn't read or hear about that until your above post but to be honest I think that the savaging that FF will get and the gigantic swing that will come to Labour and FG I think that these will be the future big two and FF will be a rump for generations. Thankfully.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Completely agree with every last iota of what you said.
Should anyone I know try defend anything that has played out in this country since 2007 I will physically assault them with a pencil and a cabbage and I will not at all have any remorse for doing so. Here here spud.

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Sure they got us the free cheese!! What more do you want? There'll still be plenty of votes for FF. They might promise even more dairy-based products in their election manifesto. A vote for Fianna Fail is a vote for cheese!

And they didn't think of the lactose intolerant... BAST@RDS!

I think the end is nigh for FF.

Nearly 90 years of tyranny at an end... getting goose bumps.

Obviously the FF Parliamentry party is going to be massacred come January, but what high profile faces are likely to be seeking alternative employment? I can't imagine they will all escape unscathed. Some poor sod is going to be left to become leader

It'll be Micky Martin or Hanafin. They've managed to somehow escape the splash back.
Hanafin was missing at the press conference.
Chris Andrews was out today even after the press conference calling for an immediate election. Clearly he's fretting for his seat.

Hanafin will be lucky to hold her seat on the last poll figures, never mind whatever their standing is now after the week since that was taken.

Eamon O'Cuiv fancies his chances of taking the leadership, I'd be certain of that. Dermot Ahern too will surely use the miscommunication of the past couple of days to his advantage. Martin could do anything - he could be happy enough to let someone bear the initial backlash, and then try and galvanise and bring the party forward. Both he and Ahern are the opposite to Cowen too, relatively clean-cut, healthy and somewhat coherent. Someone [possibly on P.ie] said that there could be a clean sweep of the current FF front bench, that wouldn't be a shock.

If you fancied a little flutter, if the markets allowed it, see if you can get a price on Sen James Carroll scraping a seat in Louth. He's a FF'er, but he's young, very,very popular and does a trojan amount of work in the local constituencies. He will have a big amount of support. While it shouldn't matter, I am biased though as I know him. I'm not a FF'er or any other party member for that matter. Worth checking out.