They wore them on Saturday anyway. I didn't notice either way on the Sunday show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It's not something I'd chose to wear myself but it's a personal choice. I don't wear a Lily either for that matter.
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They wore them on Saturday anyway. I didn't notice either way on the Sunday show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It's not something I'd chose to wear myself but it's a personal choice. I don't wear a Lily either for that matter.
For thousands of British school-leavers, there are few other options. Of course I recognise that many are attracted to a military career.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Right, so we're meeting halfway. The Poppy Appeal has proved the most effective way to provide that support.Quote:
Agree the families are worthy of support, but not the perpetrators
Not everyone necessary has your fearsome intellect. Although everyone joining the British forces realises it's very likely they'll be shot at.Quote:
As the Spud man says, if they'd had had a brain of their own they would make more effort at not being cannon fodder in all those pointless conflicts since 1945
Do you have to work (your own?) paranoia into every conceivable thread? In any case, wider apathy can be overcome. If it wasn't so, we'd all still be swinging from the trees. Can we expect you to drop your enthusiastic support for a united Ireland, given that most people in Britain and Ireland seem reasonably happy with (or apathetic about, if you like) the present situation?Quote:
Which have been largely pointless, given the apathy of the wider population. And paranoia of certain politicians. Sound familar??
We're broadly agreed. The best way to prevent Afghans being killed, or at least reduce the number, is to persuade foreign armies to come home.Quote:
Sadly body-bags are far more likely to end the conflict than the experience of the hapless locals, who we should note for whom, there is no national campaign of financial collection in Britain or even great practical assistance given the destruction imposed by them and their ilk
You implied pretty strongly that British people generally, and me personally, don't oppose British government policy- even though I'd already explained how we do.Quote:
You mentioned a few politicians but didn't suggest the criticism you claim! Though if it helps I will, but more in the context of wider apathy as per above
a) anecdotage is of limited value, partic. when contradicted by wider evidence. The original point of the thread highlit that basically every public figure in Britain wears one. While the suggestion of compulsion is uncomfortable as I said, the convention has been there for decadesQuote:
Only anecdotally in that I see very few members of the public these days or friends and acquaintances ever wearing a Poppy. Maybe because they have a conscience
b) what's it like up there on the moral high ground? Will you be sending postcards?
More anecdotage. See above.Quote:
Not sure about the 'Brit' bit but certainly worked with and known dozens of Muslims, none of whom I've ever seen with a poppy or making a donation. And given world events and the misguided role of British forces, never likely to
In Britain, they're the 5- 6% of the population who are non-white. But I think even you knew that.Quote:
Similarly with around 90% of 'ethnic minorities', whatever they are!
I'm not at all confused. I've quoted evidence to answer your anecdotal prejudice.Quote:
But if you're confused, why not ask them?? Think I can predict their response...
The usual hot air, contradictions & bluster, not to mention the most far-fetched interpretation, as ever largely detached from reality!
Is that a special combination which provokes you into posting the same response twice?
Really? Most of them continue their education or go on the dole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Except that's not what I said.Quote:
Right, so we're meeting halfway.
So why do it, or expect massive sympathy why you get taken out invading someone else's country, almost exclusively, unnecessarily??Quote:
everyone joining the British forces realises it's very likely they'll be shot at.
Huh?Quote:
Do you have to work (your own?) paranoia into every conceivable thread? In any case, wider apathy can be overcome. If it wasn't so, we'd all still be swinging from the trees. Can we expect you to drop your enthusiastic support for a united Ireland, given that most people in Britain and Ireland seem reasonably happy with (or apathetic about, if you like) the present situation?
I was talking about the paranoia of US & Brit.politicians which have led them into the latest completely pointless conflicts. The only other bout of the former is your own link to the North, but if that's your bag....
No, they shouldn't be there. Or ever have gone.Quote:
The best way to prevent Afghans being killed, or at least reduce the number, is to persuade foreign armies to come home.
And if any country or army invades another then they have to accept the consequences and is very difficult to have any great sympathy for them. Especially when the mainly unarmed civilian population there are killed in far greater numbers and most of the world frankly doesn't care.
Notice you didn't acknowledge that neither the British State (or population) or Poppy Appeal don't bother to make even the slightest reparations to those whose lives they've totally wrecked.
Do they really? Clearly it's not been an issue in my life time as a majority of their voters have continued to back the 3 main pro-war parties there. As I said, most people are sadly indifferent, unless of course when home-grown terrorists come unsurprisingly onto the agenda periodically.Quote:
You implied pretty strongly that British people generally, and me personally, don't oppose British government policy- even though I'd already explained how we do.
So you watch a lot of sanctimonious people in the media. Isn't that also just anecdotal? Is that your 'evidence'?? ;)Quote:
a) anecdotage is of limited value, partic. when contradicted by wider evidence. The original point of the thread highlit that basically every public figure in Britain wears one. While the suggestion of compulsion is uncomfortable as I said, the convention has been there for decades
b) what's it like up there on the moral high ground? Will you be sending postcards?
Though I admit, it is apt, you refer to it being 'wider' !
My experience is limited like everyone else's, but of the few hundred people I saw yesterday, only 3 were wearing Poppies.
They could of course all be paying hundreds by Direct Debit, but I doubt it.
So why refer to them to in such a patronising way? And I repeat 90% of those who I've known wouldn't ever wear a poppy.Quote:
In Britain, they're the 5- 6% of the population who are non-white.
You could of course ask them as I suggest. As some of them are even mutual acquaintances.....
Hmm.Quote:
I'm not at all confused.
The whole pro-war thing is a bit of a catch-22. I actually supported the invasion of Afghanistan, as I believe the terrorist training camps for Islamic extremists located there were a credible threat to the security of Western Nations (as did the UN), but I was strongly against the invasion of Iraq, which I believe was launched for selfish, economic reasons, on the back of fabricated "evidence". And I think those responsible are indeed guilty of war crimes.
However, to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan now would be just plain irresponsible. The countries are both in a horrible mess as a result of the invasions, and it is definitely the responsibility of the invading nations to sort it out to the best of their ability. If they were to pull out of either country now, things would descend into full scale civil war, with the death toll probably in the millions. No matter how you felt about the original invasion, that is just wrong.
AB, variously
* I'm not suggesting all or most joining the Brit military are prompted by poverty/ unemployment/ lack of other jobs, any more than they're invariably motivated by invading other countries and killing the locals. But in practice, many are. Less than 50% of 18 year olds currently go on to further education, btw
* I suggested we 'met halfway', simply because you agreed with me that it was reasonable for a charity appeal to benefit the dependents of service veterans
* however misguided individuals' motivations, it's entirely reasonable for soldiers to expect the welfare of they and their dependents will be provided in future. As I said, they can expect to be shot at- it's a bit more than an occupational hazard
* I was merely pointing out the obvious contradiction between your exaggerated cynicism in response to anti-war opposition in Britain, and your own (presumably equally pointless) opposition to the partition of Ireland
* the best way to help Afghans NOW is to withdraw foreign armies. Of course it would be better if they hadn't invaded in the first place. So what do you suggest- just letting them get on with it while thousands more die?
* I think we all realise that you and others have little or no sympathy for the foot-soldiers. OK, but at least accept you are probably in a minority in this country. 26 million poppies were sold in Britain in 2008
* you're right, I hadn't mentioned above any reparation from Britain to those affected by our wars in foreign countries. It's clearly inadequate, but not quite zero as you claim. Both private charity, overseas aid through government and building of infrastructure (hospitals, schools etc.)
* yes, there's some contradiction between 90% of voters here voting for parties that supported the war, while clearly a lot more than 10% of the population have opposed it. Politics generally isn't single issue outside minorities like the SF/ SDLP constituency in NI
* unlike you, I've quoted evidence that isn't just anecdotal (scale of the poppy appeal, number of Muslims/ ethnic minorities in Britain etc.). See it above
I didn't patronise anyone. You asked who I meant by 'ethnic minorities' in Britain, I answered you.
I don't claim any detailed knowledge of Afghanistan nor military strategy, but isn't that descent into civil war likely whenever we go, if it ever happens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peadar 1987
As far as I can see, the British Army seems to be facing the Taleban across Afghanistan (a country the size of France) roughly as they did the IRA in South Armagh (drivable across in half an hour). The likelihood of ever controlling such a large area (literally step-by-step given the profusion of booby traps) must be minimal.
Might be of interestQuote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
http://www.chris-floyd.com/articles/...can-elite.html
Maybe more should. The British army is hardly any sort of positive career move currently even if you can join-up at 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Only as a very low priority, behind aid to the countries they inevitably disrupt & destroy, which is why I guess the Poppy Appeal has dropped off in obvious popularity.Quote:
you agreed with me that it was reasonable for a charity appeal to benefit the dependents of service veterans
* however misguided individuals' motivations, it's entirely reasonable for soldiers to expect the welfare of they and their dependents will be provided in future.
Except I never said that. The only paranoia here, is the usual misguided conclusions.....Quote:
I was merely pointing out the obvious contradiction between your exaggerated cynicism in response to anti-war opposition in Britain, and your own opposition to the partition of Ireland
Well thousands more will die, mainly on the basis of foreign intervention. The US and Brits won't stop the Taliban as even you admit, merely add to it.Quote:
the best way to help Afghans NOW is to withdraw foreign armies. Of course it would be better if they hadn't invaded in the first place. So what do you suggest- just letting them get on with it while thousands more die?
* I think we all realise that you and others have little or no sympathy for the foot-soldiers. OK, but at least accept you are probably in a minority in this country. 26 million poppies were sold in Britain in 2008
I hadn't mentioned above any reparation from Britain to those affected by our wars in foreign countries. It's clearly inadequate
Not sure what you mean about a 'minority', but even allowing for the figure you claim, the ever-beloved Britain's population is 60million-plus, of which 26 million is not even half.
There would be greater sympathy with dependents (many of whom have spoken out against a war I thought you aren't in favour of ??) if the British state gave reparations now, though even those fools couldn't be that hypocritical??
So clearly it's not that important to most people in Britain. Except when there are attacks in London or those planned on planes.....Quote:
there's some contradiction between 90% of voters here voting for parties that supported the war, while clearly a lot more than 10% of the population have opposed it.
And? They're hardly conclusive and the monetary figure is irrelevant to the sectors of the population mentioned, except that they're hardly likely to contribute!Quote:
I've quoted evidence that isn't just anecdotal (scale of the poppy appeal, number of Muslims/ ethnic minorities in Britain etc.).
I didn't patronise anyone. You asked who I meant by 'ethnic minorities' in Britain, I answered you.
And not just most ethnic minorities, but plenty of home-grown Brits have lost interest in the Poppy Appeal as they see it as condoning pointless foreign wars. Why not ask your peers? ;)
Whilst the last sentence, as ever, makes no sense!
Except that it isn't that obviously less popular. £35 million raised in a three week campaign in 2009, 26 million poppies sold in 2008. Let's not nitpick: that's 51% of the population over age 14, spending an average 70 pence per head. Your evidence of its obviously reduced popularity is almost entirely anecdotal. Even the reasonable assumption that the 3% Muslim minority are less likely to support the Poppy Appeal at present isn't backed with any detail other than guesswork.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
You said that anti-War protests in Britain "have been largely pointless, given the apathy of the wider population". The clear implication being that you think any issue not obviously supported by a majority of the population and thus likely to be resolved in their favor, is pointless and not worth pursuing. Like your own 'I'll do anything for a united Ireland except actually live in it' campaign on here, for example.Quote:
Except I never said that. The only paranoia here, is the usual misguided conclusions....
If Britain compensates Afghans (or even better, stops fighting in their country), I can see that you and others are likely to be better disposed to the Poppy Appeal and similar. That's fine, it's an individual choice. Not sure why you stress my opposition to the war, which I've made clear above?Quote:
There would be greater sympathy with dependents (many of whom have spoken out against a war I thought you aren't in favour of ??) if the British state gave reparations now
All fine and dandy, but the nos.supporting the Poppy Appeal are going down regardless of your tenuous 'evidence', which includes a failure to record any great levels of Muslim inclusiveness mainly because there isn't, er, any. ;)
It's 'favour', as you might say whilst the protests were pointless, unfortunately. And don't understand your mention of a 'united Ireland', which was never referred to here. Or that typically then, the wrong conclusion was reached!
To most people against the recent wars, in my experience, now makes them less inclined towards the Poppy Appeal. Which is hardly a surprise!
The last sentence mentioned refers to the inevitable hypocrisy....
I would never wear one and my skin crawls when I see them.
Glorifying the orchestrated butcher of the European working class and also re-inforcing the British Jingoism it needs to sustain the old mantra of "support our boys" etc.
It is effectively a symbol or jingoistic nationalism that masquerades behind a support appeal for dead and injured soldiers.
Well apologys but my sympathy is with the people of Iraq and Afghanistan and not some young British lads who are paid to subjugate and brutalise foreign peoples.
Its not squaddies that need this money its the people of Iraq and Afghanistan but tbh even stating that is irrelevant as it would mean you accept the line trumpeted that its merely a "charity" when it is so much more.
My sisters friend works in England and she is Irish, they were told to wear Poppys in the shop she works, and she refused and it was not taken well.
Its got damn all to do with Charity its all about reinforcing the revisionist tale by British Historians and political comentators that the first world war was a glorious war when in reality it was one tyrannical Empire fighting another Empire through its working class.
Its not something we should glorify, its something we should abhor.
So in summary I despise the Poppy and all that it has come to symbolise.
Look no further than that vomit enducing song by the X-Factor contestants, "Hero's", disgusting.
I was asked to buy a poppy yesterday as well. Told your one I was Irish and what the hell wud be wearing a poppy for. The look off her was priceless and well worth it!
Living in an area with a huge east asian community I see virtually no poppies worn around town
I'd call it honoring those who gave their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin
I don't think it actually needs that- in practice the Appeal has been almost self-sustaining, as one war and its veterans succeeds the next. It's a popular charity first, even if the element of fetishising the military has grown.Quote:
also re-inforcing the British Jingoism it needs to sustain the old mantra of "support our boys" etc.
See above.Quote:
It is effectively a symbol or jingoistic nationalism that masquerades behind a support appeal for dead and injured soldiers
Both are deserving of sympathy/ charity, it's not a zero sum game. In any case, that it's a charity obviously gives you a choice whether to contribute. If you're unsympathetic or even hostile, fair enough. Ignore the Appeal.Quote:
Well apologys but my sympathy is with the people of Iraq and Afghanistan and not some young British lads who are paid to subjugate and brutalise foreign peoples...Its not squaddies that need this money its the people of Iraq and Afghanistan
Sorry to hear that. What happened next?Quote:
My sisters friend works in England and she is Irish, they were told to wear Poppys in the shop she works, and she refused and it was not taken well
This is a bit silly- obviously it is a charity, and a popular one as detailed above. It's clearly not mainly about WW1 any more, given that all the veterans have died. And twhatever you think of the British or German Empires' motives in 1914, there will be crippled veterans, widows and orphans in 2014.Quote:
Its got damn all to do with Charity its all about reinforcing the revisionist tale by British Historians and political comentators that the first world war was a glorious war when in reality it was one tyrannical Empire fighting another Empire through its working class
I'd avoid XF if I were you, probably help your blood pressure.Quote:
Look no further than that vomit enducing song by the X-Factor contestants, "Hero's", disgusting
Again it's your choice, but I'm sure you'd agree it was reasonable for the seller to ask. Unless you were carrying a TROOPS OUT placard or something ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
As above I'll accept that the Asian/ Muslim community are less likely than other groups to wear one; but in my area plenty of Asians do.Quote:
Living in an area with a huge east asian community I see virtually no poppies worn around town
Except it's not popular 'as detailed above', certainly in the capital of Britain where >5% or probably fewer are seen wearing as a poppy, though as said up thread the rest of the populace are probably secretly donating, not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
;)
As for the charities, if there was one for WW veterans up to 1945 or their dependents that would be fair enough.
But after that date they should GTF and have a cheek asking anybody for anything, it's the responsibility of successive Brit.governments in this case to sort out their own mess rather than trying to grovel to the public.
Besides their conflicts after 1945 deserve neither respect or attention. Any funds should be diverted to the hapless civilian recipients of those unnecessary conflicts wherever they were around the world.
It's 'honouring', btw ;)
Yeah right, the Taliban want to take over the Pentagon and the Dail. They're control freaks but their ambitions don't quite extend that far.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Your second paragraph is full of fine sentiments but wholly unrealistic. Besides linking the military-industrial complex to this as part of the extended pro-Israel agenda, all you are doing is creating a scenario where Vietnam looks like a kid's picnic.
By butchering civilians there, you're far more likely to breed revenge suicide attacks as seen around Europe in the past & in the future.
Great, that's what's really needed. Thanks.
A pertinent read...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/no...erans-complain
Quote:
Poppy appeal's original aims being subverted, veterans complain.
Critics say event is drum-roll for current conflicts but Royal British Legion says new approach has raised awareness.
A group of veterans from conflicts including the Falklands and Northern Ireland have complained of the increasing glitz and glamour of the annual poppy appeal and of it being hijacked to marshall public support behind current campaigns.
In a letter in tomorrow's Guardian, the veterans argue that the original aim of the appeal as a sombre commemoration of the war dead and the horrors of conflict was in danger of being lost amid the marketing spin and tub-thumping political aims.
"A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum-roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored," they write.
The Royal British Legion organises the annual appeal, as well as events such as the festival of remembrance at the Royal Albert Hall and the service at the Cenotaph in Whitehall – this year on Sunday 14 November – and hopes to raise £36m, £2m more than last year. The sum is about half what it spends annually in supporting former servicemen and women.
This year's appeal was launched by the girl band the Saturdays at Colchester barracks, the Armed Services extreme flight team have held a "jump for heroes" with white parachutes decorated with red poppies and red smoke flares over Essex, and organisers persuaded the X Factor judges to start wearing poppies on the programme weeks ago.
As well as the buttonhole paper poppy, jute poppy bags, poppy jewellery (from £4.99), poppy T-shirts, scarves, caps and ties, cufflinks and tie-slides, not to mention more permanent lapel badges, are also on sale.
For some, it's all too much. "I am not sure I agree with all that," said the elderly RAF veteran with his cardboard tray of paper poppies outside a Sainsbury's in Kent. "It's a wonderful cause, but it's all getting a bit – what's the word? – excessive: a bit wallowing. I wouldn't like to say so openly though."
With all last survivors of the first world war now dead – Harry Patch, the last soldier to have served on the Western Front, died aged 111 last year – and veterans of the second world war in their 80s, the legion is using new ways to turn the public's attention to the casualties of newer conflicts.
Posters this year with the slogan "It only takes a second to put on a poppy" show a serviceman strapping on an artificial leg and a young widow with her baby daughter at the grave of her partner. It is the style and also the apparent politics of supporting our boys in unpopular wars such as Afghanistan and Iraq that has caused complaints.
The veterans' letter organiser is Ben Griffin, a London ambulance driver who served nine years in the Parachute Regiment, including in Afghanistan and Iraq, before refusing to return for a further term of service because of his concerns about US military tactics.
He said: "We are concerned that people are trying to take ownership of the poppy for political ends. It is almost as if they are trying to garner support for our boys and any criticism of the wars is a betrayal.
"That is not what the poppy was all about to start with: it was all about remembrance and peace: never again. The government should be supporting these casualties: they are their liability, not the British Legion's."
Ken Lukowiak, who served in the Falkland Islands and Northern Ireland between 1979 and 1984, and is now an author, is another signatory. He said: "I don't have a problem with the British Legion, which does wonderful work, but it is the sanitisation which concerns me.
"Part of me wants to be sensitive to the families who have lost loved ones and part of me wants to throw a bucket of blood into the living rooms of the nation every night to show people the true meaning of war.
"This year's poppy appeal is too showbizzy, too much glamour and glitz. It's like they are turning on the Christmas lights in Regent Street."
Robert Lee, the British Legion's spokesman, is unrepentant. "I am glad that they have noticed the change in campaigning. It's a fair cop. There have been criticisms, mainly from older veterans.
"We are the national custodians of remembrance but we are living in contemporary society. Not everything we do with the poppy appeal has to be static and serious, or conducted with a frown. It was very generous of the X Factor wearing poppies – that's caused quite a stir of Twitter, with people asking what they are.
"There is nothing in our appeal or campaigning which supports, or does not support, war: we are totally neutral. We are not a warmongering organisation. We don't have a position on war in Iraq or anywhere else. These boys don't send themselves to Iraq – that's a decision for the politicians.
"We help 160,000 cases a year, servicemen and women and their families. We represent widows at inquests, we fight for compensation for victims who have lost limbs. We are in there, up to our elbows dealing with the cost of conflict."
The poppy became a symbol of remembrance after the Canadian surgeon John McCrae hurriedly penned his verse In Flanders Fields in the back of a field ambulance at Ypres in May 1915, but it was only after the war that the flower came to symbolise remembrance of the war dead.
McCrae died of pneumonia and meningitis in January 1918 after three years spent patching up the wounded from the trenches. His poem ends: "If ye break faith with us who die, We shall not sleep, though poppies grow in Flanders fields."
I must have missed the part of my own post where I said that Western forces should be butchering innocent civilians. Clearly I, like every other non-psychopath, think that the coalition forces should only engage confirmed military targets, even if that means significantly higher military casualties. And the Taliban don't have to want to take over the Pentagon to blow up American embassies, or fly planes into their buildings. You should have seen ample evidence of that already.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Well of course they should, but the nature of war, including indiscriminate bombing, means that their response is wholly disproportionate.
As for 9-11, assuming it was masterminded by AQ, it was a direct result of previous US intervention in the Middle East and the continuously pro-Israel policy. Don't agree with that level of extremity, but continued unnecessary intervention is going to mean suicide attacks in perpetuity. As I said above, that's what we don't want!!!
Massive civilian death tolls are a direct result of military inervention, this is what happens in wars, its what always happened in wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
As for your comment on Al Qaeda, funny how your grasp of history and political affairs starts on Spetember the 11th.
Ever hear of the Shah in Iran? Ever hear of the House of Saud? Ever here of the Mujahdeen? Ever here of Saddam Hussein? The Nakba?
Who funded equipped and trained these tyrants who brutalised people in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Suadi Arabia, Palestine etc?
Ding ding ding, wrong answer not Al Qaeda, American Imperialism thats who.
Al Qaeda is but a reaction, a reactionary reaction as such.
Al Qaeda would not exist if America did not create a context in which it was able to breath.
America reaps what it sows.