The Bank Guarantee

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

By high tech I mean Google, Norkom and the like and true indigenous IT firms in the SME sector, of which there are many.

Dell and Co weren't high tech. They screwed together parts made elsewhere as part of a transfer pricing tax whizz that the US Government have gotten wise to.

Probably a discussion for another thread, but my opinion would be that the world isn't short on food or energy, it just uses them extremely inefficiently. In the same way Irish taxpayers (rightly) object to their tax money bailing out banks, I object to mine paying recreational farmers to not grow things.

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Google and their ilk will have tax breaks up the wahooney. Indigenous IT firms - I am one, remember - are in the bizarre position of paying more taxes than international firms, making it incredibly difficult to compete; and more importantly on this particular thread, grow and pay more taxes.

Dell and their ilk - MS and Oracle are far worse, all they do in Ireland is print CDs and DVDs - are still considered high tech by our moronic government, which is the one that matters here. They throw money at these companies because every time the tax breaks expire, they drop hints about pulling out.

Can't argue with you on inefficiencies on the food and energy side, but that's not going to change anytime soon. The fact remains that Ireland would be a lot better off if it weaned itself off it's incredibly risky dependence on multinationals, and onto sustainable business like food and energy production via farming. We were good at farming until relatively recently, there's no reason we can't get back to it again, without the admittedly ridiculous subsidies cycle.

(EDIT: We should be planting millions of trees too, but again, that's a subject for another thread.)

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

How many of these pharma and high tech companies are Irish?

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Lots of IT firms and a few pharma. They are not huge individually, but they are exactly what we've been trying to do for 30 years, which is not be in thrall to large foreign owned MNE's (e.g. Dell) who aren't sticky and go where the subsidies are big and costs low.

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

I made no mention of CAP, why did you feel the need?

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Because you can't assess the success of the sector without considering the subsidy. Its like saying the banking industry is performing well as its well capitalised (ignoring that the capital was almost exclusively taxpayer provided!

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Fact is they are spending money on capital equipment, consumer goods, investing in land (reps) and adding value (cows eat grass and somhow their by products ends up in Malteasers in case you didn't know).. Out of this primary activity came some of the world leaders in farming technology, Cashels Engineering (sell to the USAF) McHale (export to Newzealand among other places), Dromone Engineering, (OE supplier to John Deere), C&F Tooling (now in renewable energy and own Iralco) Keenan in Carlow (balers). I could go on. All Irish owned (indeginous), Irish run providing employement and retaining profits here, manufacturing invoative products having seen the need through hands on experiences.

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Irish farmers are buying those products with our tax money. Just to be clear. As for the exporting companies, in full agreement, they are doing brilliant, in the same way Irish owned IT firms such as Norkom, Lagan are. The challenge is to get the many SME's to grow into larger, sustainable employers with global recognition. As long as we were throwing money at foreign companies to bring in low-skill assembly jobs this next step was never going to happen. So it unemployment terms, the situation is dire, but there is hope for the future. I would argue that until Ireland develops a real venture capital culture of investing to fail (i.e. making lots of bets in the recognition that only one or two will suceed) then we will struggle to turn SME's into world beaters.

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Another storey but you brought it up ORA, but please detail how much CAP has cost Ireland bearing in mind we benifited hugley when the governments of the 70s and 80s hadn't a pot to pi$$ in, or as this is OT please quantify the Guarentee in euros?

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Surely you're aware of the concept of opportunity cost? There are much better things to be spending money on (and the same applies to propping up dead banks). No idea how much CAP has cost Ireland, I suspect I'd need to do a PhD to unwind that one, but I remember reading that the cumulative cost of CAP subsidies since the mid-70s is about €2trillion at current prices. This document tells me that Ireland has received €44bn in CAP funds since 1974 http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/ireland_...s/index_en.htm

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We shouldn't let the market decide our food security, imo. Why do you think the countries you quote are buying up land in South America? To secure their food supply, but you want to drive Irish farmers out of business at the behest of the market?

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I am pointing out a feckin opportunity here, in the ways Goodman did with Iraq years ago. I'm saying we have neglicted this area and now we must get back to basics (as per dahamasta comments). I never said I wanted drive Irish farmers out nor can i understand where you got that from.

Hobby farmers are the exception to the rule on the small holding guys and I accept that.

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Surely you're aware of the concept of opportunity cost? There are much better things to be spending money on (and the same applies to propping up dead banks). No idea how much CAP has cost Ireland, I suspect I'd need to do a PhD to unwind that one, but I remember reading that the cumulative cost of CAP subsidies since the mid-70s is about €2trillion at current prices. This document tells me that Ireland has received €44bn in CAP funds since 1974 [COLOR=#506f5c]http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/ireland_...s/index_en.htm[/COLOR]

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i.e............... a nett benificory so.

Nothing wrong with recreational or hobby farming, I'd like to be one some day!

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

I am pointing out a feckin opportunity here, in the ways Goodman did with Iraq years ago. I'm saying we have neglicted this area and now we must get back to basics (as per dahamasta comments). I never said I wanted drive Irish farmers out nor can i understand where you got that from..

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I'm not sure holding Larry Goodman up as a positive example to anything is particularly wise.....!

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

i.e............... a nett benificory so.

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That wasn't my point, as I said.

Wasn't sure whether to put this in the 'Anglo Billions' thread or this one - this one is probably more suitable.

From RTE - http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0912/iceland.html

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Iceland's former prime minister Geir Haarde and three ministers should be tried for negligence that led to the country's 2008 banking and financial meltdown, a parliamentary commission has said.

The ad hoc Special Investigation Commission blamed extreme negligence of the former conservative government for the fall of three Icelandic banks in October 2008 that led to the country's unprecedented financial crisis.

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I look forward to the Irish special investigation commission reaching the same conclusions.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I look forward to the Irish special investigation commission reaching the same conclusions.

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Pravda are all ready doing the softening up process for the results of that commission with the preemptive revisionist spin of "Freefall".