Rioting in Beal-feirste.

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Originally Posted by shantykelly

as to the question of giving the police additional power? police in the north, in whatever historical guise, have shown they cant be trusted. i have yet to see any real sea change in attitude that would make me believe that it is ok to give more power to the cops, especially given their extensive abuse of illegal stop and search procedures.

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It wasn't illegal, considering they were given the power under law to do so, and I support the police in their quest to stamp out terrorism by them searching anyone they suspect of being a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser. If the Garda thought you were a terrorist they'd put your front door up your hall and have a wee dander about your house, probably giving you a hiding in the process.

The police need more power, as evidenced by the trouble where they couldn't do anything but stand and take a beating. It wouldn't happen anywhere else, so why should it happen in NI?

Also, on the subject of the rioting, interesting to see the Ardoyne residents protesting against it. Perhaps it's finally being shown that it's not the residents opposed to this march "defending their area" but the scumbags being bussed in from all over the place who look at this like their annual fun day to try and kill some police officers that are causing the bother.

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Originally Posted by awec

Do you not find it slightly ironic, that after 30 years of preaching tolerance and equality, that dissident Republicans now cannot tolerate or allow a legal march down a public road?

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Dissident Republicans preaching tolerance and equality? Must have missed that.

It's a real shame to see this sort of stuff still going on, never mind the fact that people are travelling from down south to tell locals what they can and cannot do. However, some change must surely be enacted on the side of the Orange Order if they're serious about moving on and making this event a genuine tourist attraction. The whole anti-catholic, we beat you in a war hundreds of years ago crap is hardly going to create an all-inclusive love-in.

There HAS been change by the Orange Order. They said they would walk silently (no bands would play) and they made the contentious strip as short as possible.

That's as maybe. But why do the paranoid cretins even need to march at all?

They got what they wanted;an illegally founded colonial theme park in which they waste more time on 'being British', than the rest of that mainland combined, but is ruled by the Brit.Establishment they so deludedly worship in London.
Which has generally p*ssed off most Irish (& English, Welsh & Scottish) people ever since!!!

Why rub the indigenous population's noses in it also, with marches relating to an event 320 years ago? Marches now on the 350th & 400th anniversary and every 50 years up to the 500th should be enough, FFS. Even for that shower.

And would generally agree with what most others said about the protestors largely being bored hoodlums. Though if I was a young nationalist in Ardoyne then I might well feel frustrated also.

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Originally Posted by awec

By the way, to the OP, how can:

Throwing bricks at the police
Dropping a breeze block on an officers head
Shooting officers with live ammo
Throwing petrol bombs
Damaging property

ever be described as a "relevant protest" ?

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The protest is definitely relevant, though not in the mindless manner in which it was conducted.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

That's as maybe. But why do the paranoid cretins even need to march at all?

They got what they wanted;an illegally founded colonial theme park in which they waste more time on 'being British', than the rest of that mainland combined, but is ruled by the Brit.Establishment they so deludedly worship in London.
Which has generally p*ssed off most Irish (& English, Welsh & Scottish) people ever since!!!

Why rub the indigenous population's noses in it also, with marches relating to an event 320 years ago? Marches now on the 350th & 400th anniversary and every 50 years up to the 500th should be enough, FFS. Even for that shower.

And would generally agree with what most others said about the protestors largely being bored hoodlums. Though if I was a young nationalist in Ardoyne then I might well feel frustrated also.

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Perhaps we should ban all marches that commemorate the 1916 Easter Rising too? And the Hibernian marches? What about the St Patricks day marches?

Do you not think these are an important part of this islands culture and history either?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

The protest is definitely relevant, though not in the mindless manner in which it was conducted.

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The protest is not relevant. It is a public thoroughfare. It does not belong to any person or group of people. It's like saying "You may pay your car tax which entitles you to park on public roads, but you're not parking on this public road cause I said so".

In saying that, I would not mind so much if they stood at the side of the road holding plackards(sp?) suggesting their opposition to the march. Certainly 100 times more credible than sitting in the middle of the road to force a police reaction which they then know will lead to violence by deluded, stupid young kids who get told they're doing their country and community a service by the muppets that stand in the shadows while it's happening.

The thing is that the Easter Rising marches are few and far between by comparison and far less contentious. And certainly have no triumphalisism....they don't generate a whole season which lasts for months FFS.
After the 100th anniversary, am happy enough to see 1916 marked every decade for the next century and less often thereafter.

As for Paddy's Day, are you saying he's not a patron saint in the North? Or there is no patron saint there??
Still you can always have Nov. 30th?? ;)

And of course, any protest against such a hateful (and irrelevant) organisation like the OO is highly relevant. As I said the manner in which it happened was generally wrong.

I got woken up at half past nine in the morning a few weeks back after a particularly heavy Friday night by a Unionist march in Glasgow. Forget politics, forget the Troubles, forget everything that's gone before, this is the one thing I will never forgive the Unionists for! :p

Had similar last year, the day after my birthday at around 8am, the bigots were marching up Sandy Row in the rain watched by about 20 hardy souls.
Needless to say, they were given short shrift from this quarter!

Have to take issue with one point Ardeebhoy, the OO are indigenious, or as much as any of the others there. In Ireland it is almost impossible to claim rights over land (unless your family have been living in the same bog in Mayo for 8,000 years, highly probable in some cases) - as this has been the nonsenscial and deluded argument used for ethnic cleansing around the world. I wouldn't give long odds on betting that there isn't a single person in Ireland without a bit of UK blood in them (again those who have stuck to rolling their own for 8,000 years are exempt from this).

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

The thing is that the Easter Rising marches are few and far between by comparison and far less contentious. And certainly have no triumphalisism....they don't generate a whole season which lasts for months FFS.
After the 100th anniversary, am happy enough to see 1916 marked every decade for the next century and less often thereafter.

As for Paddy's Day, are you saying he's not a patron saint in the North? Or there is no patron saint there??
Still you can always have Nov. 30th?? ;)

And of course, any protest against such a hateful (and irrelevant) organisation like the OO is highly relevant. As I said the manner in which it happened was generally wrong.

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The Easter Marches are no different to the OO marches. Not sure what they're like down here, but in the North ( :) ) they are a nationalist-exclusive tricolour waving green white and orange parade. Not unlike any OO parade. The difference being, officially the Easter marches frequently pay tribute to dead IRA members (and I mean the modern, terrorist variety).

St Patrick is the patron saint of NI too, but in recent years it's been hijacked as some sort of nationalist festival. That's not to say that Unionists don't celebrate it, because they definitely do, but just in a more incognito way.

For what it's worth, I support all these parades as I find them an important part of this island's culture and history. Tolerance is all that's needed.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

I got woken up at half past nine in the morning a few weeks back after a particularly heavy Friday night by a Unionist march in Glasgow. Forget politics, forget the Troubles, forget everything that's gone before, this is the one thing I will never forgive the Unionists for! :p

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I'd take issue to that as well! :D

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Originally Posted by awec

Do you not find it slightly ironic, that after 30 years of preaching tolerance and equality, that dissident Republicans now cannot tolerate or allow a legal march down a public road?

And yes old git, unless the people of Ardoyne are telling lies, those involved are not from the area.

The road is a public throughfare. It's not a road through a housing estate, it's a main road.


1. I won't deny the RUC had bad eggs.

2. What I find hilarious is, these republicans and thugs who attack the police go and yap if the police hit them back, claiming police brutality. Yet, if they get the united ireland they want and come up against the Guards, they'd have the sh**e knocked out of them! The guards are allowed to do the right thing - get stuck in.

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what i said is the people in ardoyne did not bus in the thugs .... the tough guards knockin sh**te out of them ... yeah doing an excellent job at the moment in limerick& dublin the have the thugs /scumbags running for cover

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Originally Posted by awec

Perhaps we should ban all marches that commemorate the 1916 Easter Rising too? And the Hibernian marches? What about the St Patricks day marches?

Do you not think these are an important part of this islands culture and history either?



The protest is not relevant. It is a public thoroughfare. It does not belong to any person or group of people. It's like saying "You may pay your car tax which entitles you to park on public roads, but you're not parking on this public road cause I said so".

In saying that, I would not mind so much if they stood at the side of the road holding plackards(sp?) suggesting their opposition to the march. Certainly 100 times more credible than sitting in the middle of the road to force a police reaction which they then know will lead to violence by deluded, stupid young kids who get told they're doing their country and community a service by the muppets that stand in the shadows while it's happening.

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the same public thoroughfares that untill recently only finally accepted st patricks day parades in the city centre ... so why for so many hundreds of years was it ok to celebrate by marching round cities /towns to celebrate a victory won in drogheda southern ireland ....but a celebration of irelands patron saint was totally forebidden ...??

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Originally Posted by awec

The Easter Marches are no different to the OO marches. Not sure what they're like down here, but in the North ( :) ) they are a nationalist-exclusive tricolour waving green white and orange parade. Not unlike any OO parade. The difference being, officially the Easter marches frequently pay tribute to dead IRA members (and I mean the modern, terrorist variety).

St Patrick is the patron saint of NI too, but in recent years it's been hijacked as some sort of nationalist festival. That's not to say that Unionists don't celebrate it, because they definitely do, but just in a more incognito way.

For what it's worth, I support all these parades as I find them an important part of this island's culture and history. Tolerance is all that's needed.

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yes i can see it now the easter 1916 march going down the shankill /sandy row .... beating their lambeg drums even louder outside every orange order hall how many easter marches actually cause as much trouble as oo marches ... a hell of alot of 12th marchers/lodges are not to shy in paying tribute to dead uda/uff/uvf members either ... and i would say only a very small number of unionists actually celebrate paddys day

You seem to think that the 12th parade walks THROUGH a nationalist area (as you're trying to equate it with an Easter Parade up the Shankill).

It does NOT.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4893/trouble.png

The blue box indicates where the Crumlin Road was closed off. The red line indicates the parade route, with the big red X indicating the Ardoyne Shops were the trouble was instigated. The green squiggle indicates the nationalist area, the orange squiggle indicates the loyalist area (the shankill).

You may also note, that Ballysillan (in the top left of the screenshot) is a loyalist area.

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/...BAN.6426744.jp

Brilliant. Slap it up him.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/belfast_religion.gif

You can see the Ardoyne sort of top centre left ish.

As you can see, the Crumlin Road goes through shankill, Crumlin, Woodvale and Glencairn, all of which are massively loyalist areas. It runs alongside the Ardoyne and goes through the New Lodge a bit at the start.

Does this finally put to bed the notion that they are walking THROUGH a nationalist area?

How nicely tribal is that map. I presume your point is that marching is fair game in a red area? Its like a special sectarian Norn Ireland version of Twister.

Can't see the good of making the Twelfth a bank holiday in the Republic - the official Easter parades shouldn't have been revived, but the Unionists in turn have to realise that the symbolism of their marches doesn't help matters either.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

How nicely tribal is that map. I presume your point is that marching is fair game in a red area? Its like a special sectarian Norn Ireland version of Twister.

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Belfast is ultimately tribal. People are now more accepting of one another and the old sectarianism (for the most part) is gone. However, housing estates are still mainly one side or the other as people have formed close knit communities there over the past 30 odd years and so people won't move.

You'll find that out in the suburbs and fringes, in modern housing developments (detached/semi detached houses etc instead of council owned terraces) that it's a lot more mixed.

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Originally Posted by awec

Belfast is ultimately tribal. People are now more accepting of one another and the old sectarianism (for the most part) is gone. However, housing estates are still mainly one side or the other as people have formed close knit communities there over the past 30 odd years and so people won't move.

You'll find that out in the suburbs and fringes, in modern housing developments (detached/semi detached houses etc instead of council owned terraces) that it's a lot more mixed.

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You are correct about middle class areas being more mixed, and thankfully so.

That map is out of date however, about 20 years. Its based on 1991 census figures.

Note the change here (http://nireland2001.webs.com/aontroimantrim.htm):

http://nireland2001.webs.com//photos...%20feirste.png


FYI the most recent belfast city council election results (2005):

SF: 30,531 (30.6%), 14 seats
DUP: 25,722 (25.8%), 15 seats
SDLP: 17,058 (17.1%), 8 seats
UUP: 13,756 (13.8%), 7 seats
Alliance: 6,808 (6.8%), 4 seats
Green: 801 (0.8%)
PUP: 2,713 (2.7%), 2 seats
WP: 698 (0.7%)
Soc: 338 (0.3%)
Cons: 243 (0.2%)
Ind: 1007 (1%), 1 seat

in summary

NATIONALIST 48.4% (22 SEATS)
UNIONIST 43.7% (25 SEATS)
NON-ALIGNED 7.9% (4 SEATS)

as opposed to the time of that map, 1989 election:

UUP: 22,846 (21.7%), 14 councillors
DUP: 15,618 (14.8%), 8 councillors
SF: 19,688 (18.7%), 8 councillors
SDLP: 16,937 (16.1%), 8 councillors
Alliance: 11,479 (10.9%), 6 councillors
PUP: 2,533 (2.5%), 1 councillor
ULDP: 908 (0.9%)
Lab '87: 212 (0.2%)
GP: 95 (0.08%)
CPI: 175 (0.2%)
Prot U: 1,408 (1.3%), 1 councillor
WP: 5,571 (5.3%), 1 councillor
U: 5,102 (4.8%), 3 councillors
NF: 27 (0.02%)
Ind U: 1,462 (1.4%), 1 councillor
Ind: 1,166 (1.1%)

in summary

NATIONALIST 40.3% (17 SEATS)
UNIONIST 48.0% (28 SEATS)
NON-ALIGNED 12.0% (6 SEATS)

So quite a change. Figures from here:

http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections


That being said, if any of these scumbags out rioting had jobs to go to, they would be more restrained about their behaviour. They are only looking for an excuse to riot, the Orange parade is not the reason. And I say that as no fan of the Orange Order.