Seachtain na Gaeilge

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Originally Posted by brendy_éire

Peadar, I don't buy that we're natually 'terrible' at languages.

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Where did I say we were naturally terrible? :) I think we're terrible at language because the pervasiveness of English has made us lazy, and the way in which languages are taught in schools is shocking. I learnt probably as much French in two months working with French kids in an outdoor activity centre in the summer after second year college than I did in the 10 (yes, 10!) years I spent doing it in school. The curriculum is focused far too much on preparing people for exams. You can't learn a language by learning off set pieces by heart and vomiting them onto a page, as so many people now do for the Leaving. It's all about being exposed to the language in its natural form.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Simple stuff like that would be great. Stad instead of Stop.

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I was only saying to the wife recently that the signs should be the other way around. At the moment, english is on top and ALL CAPS AND BOLD and Irish is underneath and Capitalised and Italic. It should be the other way around. Wales does a much better job of this and I'd guess it had a part to play in the resurgence of Welsh.

I've noticed that alright, although I've also noticed some signs where the opposite is true, and I still notice the English first. Force of habit to look for the English, I suppose.

Agree Welsh is much more noticeable in Wales than Irish is here though.

seactaine na gaeilge attempts to highlight the importance of the language - in fairness we need something - it's moved away from the traditional stuff in recent years - check out ceoil 10 - some good tunes on it - bought it myself on itunes

As someone who went to irish primary school right up to junior cert - i personally believe it gave me an advantage in terms points for university - but that's it - i had serious problems when i moved into an english speaking school to do my leaving - history , geography were a nighmare along with Biology - there should be more emphasis on teaching it to a good standard in primary school - none of my mates that went to english schools could ever speak a word of it right up to LC

Where is the Irish Thread that was on here a few weeks back. I think that should be brought back.

Everyone talks about how it would be a shame to let it die, and yet we invest a huge amount of time, effort and money to teach people what exactly? I got a C1 in honours Irish in the Leaving Cert (I've always been weak at languages, particularly orally) and I couldn't hold a conversation in it.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I also think if you make Irish optional, why not make English and Maths optional? I've never analysed a work memo for literary merit, or used matrices to work out how much money I have in my account. It seems to me that if you make everything optional, you end up towards the English system, which many people seem to say is weaker, and less broad, than ours.

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You perform a very narrow function in your job. That's not a criticism: it's a highly specialised function. So is mine. It's true of most people. We teach broadly because if we trained people only in what they know to become an accountant, they'd be mediocre accountants and ****ty people. Think of all the critical analysis you've made of John Delaney's actions over the years, of the analytical skill it takes to highlight inconsistency and nonsense in an FAI report, of the techniques you use when writing a match report so it doesn't read like one off Aertel. There are people on this very site who can barely write. It's not just function literacy they lack, but they actually struggle to express what they mean. Some of that is innate, but I think you're severely underestimating what you were exposed to in school.

By a similar logic though, you could argue that what Irish I do have enables me to appreciate the culture and history of where I come from that bit more (particularly through etymology), and gives an extra discussion topic while abroad. Granted, that's more to do with my general interest than my work requirements, but then so is developing the literary skills to call John Delaney a ****.

Also, given I got a C2 in Pass English - and spent the last six months kicked out of the class - it's debatable how much I actually learned from class versus just reading stuff other than The Sun. (And I'm full sure that both helped to some degree).

Some good posts there. This extract is the key for me though -

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I think that the main problem with Irish is that at the moment it is seen as a goal rather than a tool.

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This captures the idea that, in schools, Irish is just something that has to be done, there's no great meaning to it, naturally leading to negative consequences. This problem can be looked at in two ways. One, that the problem is more with the education system. Two, that it lies with the broad society. In order to promote learning, there should be a harmony between the two: your education experience should reflect what you experience in daily life. For example, if your local community is awash with talk on Peig or the subtleties of the séimhiú, or if the match report on the Bohs website is in Irish, or whatever, then when you go into class you are (whether you appreciate it or not) invigorated - your interest is heightened and you're ready to learn.

In my experience, the key to learning is making those kind of connections, life inside the classroom being a complement to life outside the classroom.

So overall, we must try to tailor the education system to society. I think the greater the dissonance between the two, the more Irish will struggle.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Where did I say we were naturally terrible? :) I think we're terrible at language because the pervasiveness of English has made us lazy, and the way in which languages are taught in schools is shocking. I learnt probably as much French in two months working with French kids in an outdoor activity centre in the summer after second year college than I did in the 10 (yes, 10!) years I spent doing it in school. The curriculum is focused far too much on preparing people for exams. You can't learn a language by learning off set pieces by heart and vomiting them onto a page, as so many people now do for the Leaving. It's all about being exposed to the language in its natural form.

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For me this is the main problem with our education system in general. I even remember my english teacher apologising once about not being able to go into further depth on a topic of interest (and relevance), because it wouldn't benefit us on the leaving cert. We had to focus on getting the comparitive text essays memorised instead. For what it's worth, I think a reasonable amount of the teachers are well aware of the flaws in the system and do their best to educate the students with more than just the leaving cert in mind. I have three or four teachers to thank for keeping me interested in education which has thankfully lead to self-education (and possibly a return to 3rd level education) after secondary school. My leaving cert Irish teacher was an amazing walking encyclopedia of the language.. who's only concern was that we scored highly on the leaving cert. Which is ironic, because he seems to have a genuine desire to keep the language alive.

Granted, I don't know a lot about how the system works, but I'd be willing to risk looking like a fool and say that the teachers don't have enough imput in structuring our education system. I fear that the power lies in the hands of a select few, possibly out of touch, people - but that's a pretty big statement to make for someone who desn't know the facts!

As someone who was educated completely as Gaeilge and now teach in a primary school Gaelscoil here are my ramblings on the topic.

1) Primary School- The main problem here is the teachers, please forgive me all my fellow teachers :D. From my experience, the vast majority of those with fluent Irish end up teaching in a Gaelscoil. There are a couple of reasons depending on the person, interest in the language, it's easier to get a job and you get paid more. Probably a combination of all 3.

What this means though is that the vast majority of teachers who are supposed to teach the language arent fluent in it. Now to me this simply makes no sense. How can you teach a language you dont fully have yourself. The requirements to teach irish in primary school are basically a C3 in honours leaving cert which you can get if your good at regurgitating stuff as said above and passing a course in college where you have a 1 hour a week mostly conversational Irish lesson. suffice it to say the vast majority pass.

So, my 2 cents, the system needs an overhall. The curriculum itself is good at primary level but a lot of the teachers arent trained enough to actually teach a language as it should be taught. Personally I think an hour or 2 a week with a fluent Irish speaker coming into the class would be far more beneficial, and interesting, for the kids than 30minutes a day of what's there now.

2) Secondary school- This doesnt only apply to Irish but to all subjects really. We have a modern up to date, child centred primary school curriculum and then a child hits 12 and goes backwards 30 years into an awful system which is basically a memory test. Needs a complete overhall.

Also, I dont think any subject which isnt compulsory for university (i.e. english, maths) should be compulsory for Leaving Cert. Fine for junior cert, but the leaving cert has too much of an impact of a person's future at the moment for a subject which may be of very little use to them in the future and they dont need to be mandatory.

I also think that this would lead to a better standard of Irish teaching and learning. You would need less teachers and therefore the best could be used, and the pupils who choose to study it will have more motivation and interest, whereas in a class at the moment these kids can very easily end up bored and sick of the language because a teacher spends all their time trying to convince the rest of the class to show an interest.

Random ideas, but that's my take on it.

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Originally Posted by micls

What this means though is that the vast majority of teachers who are supposed to teach the language arent fluent in it. Now to me this simply makes no sense. How can you teach a language you dont fully have yourself.

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Agree with most of your post, but the above quote struck me. As well as talking about Irish teachers, you'd be talking about most French, German, etc. language teachers as well.

You can teach a language you don't fully have, it happens all over the world. It only becomes a real problem when the lack of ability to speak the target language on the teacher's part means the students are actually hearing, and more importantly, acquiring, errors.

The key exception to this being pronunciation.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Agree with most of your post, but the above quote struck me. As well as talking about Irish teachers, you'd be talking about most French, German, etc. language teachers as well.

You can teach a language you don't fully have, it happens all over the world. It only becomes a real problem when the lack of ability to speak the target language on the teacher's part means the students are actually hearing, and more importantly, acquiring, errors.

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But surely French German teachers etc are fluent in those languages?

As in, they would all have studied the language for years specifically to teach it? And its probably one of 2/3 subjects they teach?

You final point, that's what I meant. That is the real problem. A lot of the teachers don't have the Irish to conduct the lessons even fully in Irish, even though they are required to. Also gramatically, vocab etc there would be a fair few mistakes made. When even the 30mins of Irish a day isnt done in irish fully but more translated from enlgish its very tough for the kids to get the hang of thinking in irish at all.

This would mostly be based on teachers I know, who ahve said as much, or who I have seen teaching like this.

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Originally Posted by micls

But surely French German teachers etc are fluent in those languages?

As in, they would all have studied the language for years specifically to teach it?.

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I think my idea of what you meant by 'fully have a language' was more strict than yours.

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Originally Posted by micls

That is the real problem. A lot of the teachers don't have the Irish to conduct the lessons even fully in Irish, even though they are required to. Also gramatically, vocab etc there would be a fair few mistakes made. When even the 30mins of Irish a day isnt done in irish fully but more translated from enlgish its very tough for the kids to get the hang of thinking in irish at all.

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I didn't realise things were that bad.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I think my idea of what you meant by 'fully have a language' was more strict than yours.

I didn't realise things were that bad.

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I may be overstating things a bit, maybe others can give there experiences of it?

But I know an awful lot of primary school teacher who would not be able to hold a constant, normal 5 minute conversation in Irish. Take for example subs we get in our school. Many of them simply dont have the Irish to converse with the kids properly in it. Now obviously its different in a Gaelscoil where you teach everything in Irish but imo if you can't chat in Irish without trouble then you certainly can't teach kids how to.

Now, the teachers are doing theyre best, but they simply arent trained in this, the limited time spent on irish in college isnt enough preparation. They can teach the phrases, they can teach the lessons themselves but to me if there's no fluency in the language from the teacher then there wont be from the child. I would be of the opinion that you need to be able to think in a language, and if the teachers cant do this and are constantly translating from English to Irish, the kids will be the same.

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Originally Posted by micls

Now, the teachers are doing theyre best, but they simply arent trained in this, the limited time spent on irish in college isnt enough preparation. They can teach the phrases, they can teach the lessons themselves but to me if there's no fluency in the language from the teacher then there wont be from the child. I would be of the opinion that you need to be able to think in a language, and if the teachers cant do this and are constantly translating from English to Irish, the kids will be the same.

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We're getting more into general language acquisition here (which is fine for me as that's what I know). I'd agree that if there is no fluency from the teacher, that is one (important) aspect of the language that the student can't pick up (from the teacher at least).

On your last point - I'd be wary of assuming that the opposite is also true - that if teachers can and do think in the target language, it follws that their students will learn to do likewise.

I'm not sure you are assuming this though.