Irish Journos = Remedial Monkeys

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

We now have a squad of players who are fully committed to the cause. They are also players who accept the managers judgement.

We can't have players in the squad no matter how gifted who won't do as their told.

If discipline breaks down for one player, there is a danger it will break down for all.

You can't have one rule for one player, and other rules for other players, that would destroy team morale.

As for Stephen Ireland, do we really want a guy who will dissapear the next time his girlfriend is pregnant, or the next time someone insults him, on the eve of a major match. The guy can't be depended on.

As for Andy Reid, if he was in the squad, he wouldn't be a starter on the team. He's be on the bench all the time. I'd say anyone would get p*ssed off travelling all over Europe just to sit on the bench. And if he wasn't allowed bring his guitar or banjo he'd be in a mood.

I think Trap learned from the Saipan episode, that it's better to leave out good but troublesome players than have them disrupting preparation and going to the press to spill the beans every time they have a gripe.

And to the OP, yes, the Irish sports media, well most of them with a few exceptions are lacking in imagination.

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Somehow I doubt whether Trap has even heard of the Saipan episode! (as strange as that may sound) Much like never hearing of Sam Allardyce and the fella before him (whos name escapes me).

Trap has his own way of diing things and imo uses his own life experiences to make his calls.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Judging by the noise level of the table being thumped as Trap answered the questions at the last press conference, I think we will be in for Strunz like rant one of these days.

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I can't wait! Can you imagine? "How dare he make noise? Like bottle empty" etc...

The debate over the Irish media (print and broadcast) is interesting as in general they are a little better than in the UK but there are good and bad everywhere. The high queen of Irish "punditry" showed his limited abilities when, during the Russia - Holland game last summer, stated "No one had heard of this Arshavin lad before this tournament." Which was highly odd for anyone with a brain and who watched more than the sky leagues.

Equally nonsensical guff can be heard each weekend on BBC, SKY and many continental channels cause your ears to bleed. But, as a previous poster said, we get what we deserve and pay for. Fans follow news, when there is no news the media provide it, and ultimately we're part of a larger entertainment machine. Modern football and it's parts are little different to the music or film industry - or if you're Rio Ferdinand - all the same!

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Originally Posted by weecountyman

The debate over the Irish media (print and broadcast) is interesting as in general they are a little better than in the UK but there are good and bad everywhere. The high queen of Irish "punditry" showed his limited abilities when, during the Russia - Holland game last summer, stated "No one had heard of this Arshavin lad before this tournament." Which was highly odd for anyone with a brain and who watched more than the sky leagues.

Equally nonsensical guff can be heard each weekend on BBC, SKY and many continental channels cause your ears to bleed. But, as a previous poster said, we get what we deserve and pay for. Fans follow news, when there is no news the media provide it, and ultimately we're part of a larger entertainment machine. Modern football and it's parts are little different to the music or film industry - or if you're Rio Ferdinand - all the same!

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What Dunphy actually said was that he had his doubts about Arshavin's skill, seeing as that the bigger clubs across Europe - United, Arsenal Barcelona, Real, Milan, etc - who all have scouting networks across the globe, had shown no interest in him, and it was surprising given his age (26) that he had made such a little impact in previous tournaments and qualifers

tetsujin, he added that, but he did say he was unknown. Which was very odd as the Barcelona chief scout was in St. Petersburg during Zenit's Uefa Cup group games and a deal was agreed, but the transfer fee wasn't enough. Russia hadn't done much previously (2 tournaments) however Arshavin had been outstanding for club and country for 3 years. Unless it's sky league business our pundits are out of their depth.

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Originally Posted by weecountyman

tetsujin, he added that, but he did say he was unknown. Which was very odd as the Barcelona chief scout was in St. Petersburg during Zenit's Uefa Cup group games and a deal was agreed, but the transfer fee wasn't enough. Russia hadn't done much previously (2 tournaments) however Arshavin had been outstanding for club and country for 3 years. Unless it's sky league business our pundits are out of their depth.

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To be fair, it's rare that any Irish pundit is asked to cover a Russian club side in any great detail, which is where Arshavin had made his mark at that time.
I hadn't heard of him until I went to the UEFA Cup final in 2008.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

To be fair, it's rare that any Irish pundit is asked to cover a Russian club side in any great detail, which is where Arshavin had made his mark at that time.
I hadn't heard of him until I went to the UEFA Cup final in 2008.

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Point taken and very correct. It's not your job, well maybe it is :), to be a football pundit, however it shows that our crop are very insulated and limited in their vision. The same goes for our players (in the main). There's a whole big world out there yet not making the grade down to Blue Square N/S means you've failed and all that's left is the LOI, which is wrong. Any number of our players can make a living and/or name for themselves in other European leagues, even up to the top level. I still believe that Roy Keane would be healthy and winding down his career if he had gone to Germany when he had the chance, or even to, I hestitate to say, Italy. But that's a different thread of course.

Tony O'Donoghue asking Trap about Andy Reid in the post match interview after the Italy game really was a new low in Irish sports journalism.

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Originally Posted by John83

If Irish sports journos are "remedial monkeys" (a ****-poor pejorative which mostly highlights the fact that most of the apes who've posted so far don't actually know what "remedial" means), it's because the Irish paper-buying public continues to pay to read their masterpieces of flung dung.

It's kind of like Fianna Fáil - you get what you pay for.

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You calling me an ape:D

'Remedial monkey' might not be the best term but it it should not be too difficult to try and understand what is meant.
Monkeys providing remedial information for slow learners.
The hamster analogy referred to the repetition of these questions.
I am surprised the Stephen Ireland issue is buried, at least for now.

I don't go along with the 'you get what you pay for' argument. When Trap gives a press conference, it is for the most part dominated by inane questions justified by the publics want to know or need to know.
In reality the motivation for many of the questions are not so benevolent.

The journalists already mentioned who have some cop on, do give us what we deserve (a reasoned account), when they write their piece on it. They have earned their appreciation.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

Poor thread, journalists write whatever muck their readers are interested in and any sport journalist will tell you that soccer fans for the most part aren't the most learned crowd. Sad fact is people reading those columns lap up SI gossip or conspiracy theories regarding Andy Reid. It sells papers.

Which is annoying since when you compare it to Rugby journalism with regards Quinlans recent omission there's far less sensationalism and most writers will say something along the lines of "I see where Kidney's coming from on that" and move on to discuss the more important things. While soccer writers are far busier writing some spin that implies Andy Reid drowns kittens or some such.

I'd love to pick up a paper that doesn't contain

a) A page on a one line comment Stephen Ireland made.
b) A skew on something Trap or Tardelli said.
c) A "boo hoo poor me" column on Andy Reid / Clinton Morrison / whoever else isn't getting a call up.
d) Whatever random guffah Roy Keane is spouting this week.

But in reality soccer fans seem to like that kind of trash, I'd wager there's quite a few "fans" out there who could tell you Theo Walcott's middle name or the name of half the wives of the England team but have never heard of Esteban Cambiasso. A lot of the journalism out there is aimed at that section of the audience.


To shorten all that up, you're wrong. The majority of soccer fans out there are remedial monkeys and the journalists are just giving them piles of crap to fling at each other.

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Only getting back to this now ..... and i have to say that that is a steaming pile. I do not buy it, you have not even come near swaying my opinion. You disagree fair enough but trying to blame the readers ..... that is the biggest cop out i have ever heard .... cart and horse ... in that order ... readers read what is written .... the writing happens first and then the reading ..... so ..... to shorten all that up, you're wrong.

Try harder next time

And John, Remedial Monkeys was just fine for my liking because you were in no doubt what so ever about what i was saying.

And when Irish Sports Journos all get a bit of original spark and imagination wholesale and not resort to the tired wheeled-out methods of 'investigative reporting' then i'll come back and admit i was wrong. Until then they are the guys paid to give us a bit of insight and inform us on the stories of the day. Anyone can give you bad news, and anyone can give you the negative slant on things, it takes considerably less effort and thats why they do it. That and their lack of ability. Next

Many journos do approach every football story from a sensationalist point of view, looking for the controversial sensationalist angle.

So if Trap omits Andy Reid for football reasons, the media try to make out it's because of a bust up.

In fact few journalists can write a football story without using the words bust-up, sack, failure, etc etc.

Many seem to have little interest in what actually happens on the field.

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Originally Posted by A face

You disagree fair enough but trying to blame the readers ..... that is the biggest cop out i have ever heard .... cart and horse ... in that order ... readers read what is written .... the writing happens first and then the reading ..... so ..... to shorten all that up, you're wrong.

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A face, meet capitalism, capitalism, meet A face. The customer gets what he wants, or he goes elsewhere.

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And John, Remedial Monkeys was just fine for my liking because you were in no doubt what so ever about what i was saying.

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Well ain't that just spastic.

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Originally Posted by EastTerracer

I accept the underlying point here but there is a great disparity between the different writers not necessarily explained by their respective papers' demographics.

Liam Mackey (Examiner) , Emmet Malone (Irish Times) and Neil O'Riordan (The Sun) have always seemed to me to be pretty fair and balanced.

However Independent newspapers (Sunday, Irish and the Herald) do seem to have had a negative agenda in recent years personified by Dion Fanning, Daniel McDonnell and Paul Hyland. None of them ever seem to have a good word to say and you do have to wonder if this is the house policy.

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Some good points.

Indeed its a gross generalisation to tag all Irish football journalists as being substandard, although many do their damndest to bring adverse comment upon themselves.

House policy of the paper is a salient point - eg, certain articles written to represent a papers agenda on specific issues can cloud objectivity at times.

Most Reporters don't have a complete free reign - they've an editor to answer to.

Not sure, but Columnists may have more scope to comment freely?

One things for sure - there's been as much, if not more, written about who is not playing in this team in comparison to those who have.

David Kelly in today's Indo:

The next fortnight will verify whether Giovanni Trapattoni has thus far owed more to luck than design, in the sense that his luck has seemed obvious to all at various stages of this campaign, whereas his design seems predicated on nothing more than simple instructions to arrow the little white orb towards the opposition goal.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...s-1936602.html

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

David Kelly in today's Indo:

The next fortnight will verify whether Giovanni Trapattoni has thus far owed more to luck than design, in the sense that his luck has seemed obvious to all at various stages of this campaign, whereas his design seems predicated on nothing more than simple instructions to arrow the little white orb towards the opposition goal.

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If thats the case then how would he describe Stauntons design?

In marketing there is the KISS (keep it simple stupid) motto - and surely this is what football is about too! We were in a tough group with the World Champions, a collection of highly talented individuals (Bulgaria), a growing force with players from top leagues (Montenegro), a country whose clubs who qualify for group stages of European competitions as well as players in top flight leagues (Cyprus), a well drilled and skilled side with players from top flight leagues (Georgia) and there were no San Marino, Andorra, Luxembourg, Malta, Faeroes, Moldova, Liechtenstein or Armenia to run up goals against. But we finished 2nd and with a bit more self-belief could have won the group.

There is an agenda, in a horribly british style, to destroy our managers in recent years. It's been growing and growing and the nonsensical S Ireland, S Reid, A Reid and S Finnan debates and rants are manna to the media. And it'll continue so long as "fans" buy the sky hype and lord o'reilly's need for profit.

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Originally Posted by weecountyman

There is an agenda, in a horribly british style, to destroy our managers in recent years.

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Funny that the only "Brit" on the RTE panel is the one talking sense then!

Agreed weecountyman...

Luckily there are people who watch these games, who ignore the hype, the sensationalism, the headlines about bust-ups, and are able to analyse these games without an agenda or long running chip on their shoulder and who don't need highly paid 'experts' to tell them what they see with their own eyes.

Trap is not a lucky manager when it comes to Ireland. In fact you could argue quite the opposite.

He has for example no Stephen Ireland to select, for reasons that date back prior to his reign to the Stan / Don Given era. He's been unlucky that a suburbly gifted player has a feeble ego that has to be massaged endlessly, only Trap isn't willing to play the game and has more important things to do.

He's been unlucky that we had good leads against Bulgaria twice and Italy once, and on all occassions, defenders made basic mistakes and conceded goals, which you couldn't blame the manager for.

He's been unlucky in that Steve Finnan has been out with injury, Damian Duff also, Caleb Folan as well and Stephen Reid. He didn't have Roy Keane to select or a Lee Carsley in his prime like earlier managers.

And yet despite having a fraction of the resources available to Stan and Kerr, and a lot less luck when it comes to selection, he has done many times better than them with a team of average players.

Several people have said and truthfully, with a bit of luck we could have won the group. I think most people would go along with that and I don't buy this myth that Trap is a lucky manager at all. We matched the Italians at home and away and the Bulgarians, and we should have beaten the Bulgarians.

Agree totally with regard to luck and how our luck was reported during the campaign. In some peoples' minds having a lot of your best players injured or barking mad, drawing the strongest 6th seeded team in Europe, having good goals disallowed or stonewall penalties ignored don't count as bad luck whereas the undoubted good luck we've had on occasion seems to be magnified beyond proportion.

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Originally Posted by weecountyman

There is an agenda, in a horribly british style, to destroy our managers in recent years. It's been growing and growing and the nonsensical S Ireland, S Reid, A Reid and S Finnan debates and rants are manna to the media. And it'll continue so long as "fans" buy the sky hype and lord o'reilly's need for profit.

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I dunno is there an agenda, it would be really scary if there actually was because the credibility of all print media would sure have to be questioned if there was but i'd definitely agree with the sentiment and for me its been completely boring in its repetitiveness and frequency. And its being rammed down our throats from practically every paper you pick up (can you name a paper that hasn't taken that angle) and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out either.

And i'm right, all the arguments to disagree with it have not been convincing. You'd even be wondering why all the journos reading this haven't chipped in in their defence, or maybe its a home truth and there is no argument to it.