Would you take a point against Italy?

I'm 100% convinced that regardless of the result of this match, Italy will win the group. From that point of view i'd take the draw; and i'm pretty certain that Trap, ever the pragmatist, will send the lads out v Italy with the principal gameplan being not to lose (probably a very obvious thing to say given that's Trap's default tactic anyway - not a criticism/moan, just an obsevation:p)

However there is alot to be said for the massive morale-boost that would be beating Italy. Yes they are the reigning World Champs, but more important is our failure since Holland '01 to record a notable competitive victory. A win at Croke would send us into the play-offs with real momentum.

I can't see it happening this time but here's hoping.

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Originally Posted by Tipp Townie

However there is alot to be said for the massive morale-boost that would be beating Italy. Yes they are the reigning World Champs, but more important is our failure since Holland '01 to record a notable competitive victory. A win at Croke would send us into the play-offs with real momentum.

I can't see it happening this time but here's hoping.

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Absolutely, we might not need a win to gain a play off spot but beating the Italians at home whilst having gained a point in the away game should leave the lads in no doubt that a two legged playoff against France or Croatia for example is nothing to be feared.

On the other hand a defeat at home after trying to hold on to a Nil - Nil result could leave the players thinking (what I think the majority of us feel - well its generally the vibe I am getting from here) we are not quite up to the task of qualifying.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I don't think a decision could be made til after the Bulgaria Cyprus match really. If Bulgaria win, then we'd have to be content with a point. But if they slip up I'd feel very stupid having agreed a draw with the Italians, with nothing really to lose by trying to win the match. To be honest, I think the group is settled already though.

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Even if Bulgaria slip up we will need at least 1 point from our last 2 games to get a playoff. If Bulgaria win both we need a minimum of 2 points.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I don't think a decision could be made til after the Bulgaria Cyprus match really. If Bulgaria win, then we'd have to be content with a point. But if they slip up I'd feel very stupid having agreed a draw with the Italians, with nothing really to lose by trying to win the match. To be honest, I think the group is settled already though.

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I disagree. If Bulgaria win, a point is almost useless, cos we'd still need another against Montenegro (although I appreciate if we lost to Italy we'd then need to beat Montenegro). If they slip up, a point then guarantees us a playoff spot and guarantees the Italians the group. With the absolute minimum chance of the Italians slipping up against Cyprus, a draw is a mutually favourable result between an Italian team and a team managed by an Italian. Machiavelli was an Italian too you know. Also, I direct you to Germany 1-0 Austria 1982 World Cup and Sweden 2-2 Denmark 2004 European Championships

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

I disagree. If Bulgaria win, a point is almost useless, cos we'd still need another against Montenegro (although I appreciate if we lost to Italy we'd then need to beat Montenegro). If they slip up, a point then guarantees us a playoff spot and guarantees the Italians the group. With the absolute minimum chance of the Italians slipping up against Cyprus, a draw is a mutually favourable result between an Italian team and a team managed by an Italian. Machiavelli was an Italian too you know. Also, I direct you to Germany 1-0 Austria 1982 World Cup and Sweden 2-2 Denmark 2004 European Championships

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ahem, World Cup 1990: Ireland 1 Holland 1

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Originally Posted by gspain

Even if Bulgaria slip up we will need at least 1 point from our last 2 games to get a playoff. If Bulgaria win both we need a minimum of 2 points.

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I know but I would be hugely surprised if we finished anywhere but 2nd. I just can't see the combination of results happening for it to turn out any other way. Firstly, I'd be a bit surprised if Bulgaria win in Cyprus. Secondly, I'd be surprised if we got less than 2 pts from our remaining 2 games. Thirdly, I'd be shocked if Cyprus got a result in Italy against a team needing to win to be sure of topping the group.

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

I disagree. If Bulgaria win, a point is almost useless, cos we'd still need another against Montenegro (although I appreciate if we lost to Italy we'd then need to beat Montenegro)

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I think this is a bit of a contradiction. You're nearly making it out that needing a draw against Montenegro is the same thing as needing a win. I really don't think it is.

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Originally Posted by Junior

Absolutely, we might not need a win to gain a play off spot but beating the Italians at home whilst having gained a point in the away game should leave the lads in no doubt that a two legged playoff against France or Croatia for example is nothing to be feared.

On the other hand a defeat at home after trying to hold on to a Nil - Nil result could leave the players thinking (what I think the majority of us feel - well its generally the vibe I am getting from here) we are not quite up to the task of qualifying.

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I agree with what you've said, but i think the dip in morale that would follow a defeat, of any sort, means that 'not losing' will be the primary tactic - which is ever so slightly different to 'playing for a draw'. In Trap's world, anyway. And from that point of view re. the question of this thread - yep i'd take a draw right now.

I'd normally be a more positive person, but although i think Trap's doing a good job with us (objective - qualify by any means) i've seen nothing in our home matches under him to suggest that we can beat even a relatively weak Italy team at Croke.

So long as we have a chance of winning the group I think we should go for the win. The reality is, if we were to somehow beat the Italians we would put a fair bit of pressure on them ahead of the last set of fixtures. If we can finish first and avoid some of those other runners up it would be great, as some of them are potentially harder to play than the Italians.

I think we should have a go at the Italians - Play to win.

I'm obviously not advocating a Kamakaze style onslaught - but why not apply some pressure and ask some questions of them.

We don't have the system to play Blitzkrieg football - but the work is far from done in this group from our perspective and professional pride alone should dictate that we should compete with Italy and at least attempt to bring it to the last series of games.

I'd take nothing for granted yet in relation to either of our remaining games.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'd take nothing for granted yet in relation to either of our remaining games.

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Agree completely. I'd hate to think that anyone is expecting Montenegro to be a walkover, although there probably are some eejits out there..

However this is precisely the reason why i'd take a point v Italy right now.

I completely agree. While we've put ourselves in a good position, I really hate the talk about how we're basically a shoe-in for the playoffs.

I hope we are, but the job isn't done yet.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'd take nothing for granted yet in relation to either of our remaining games.

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Agreed, and neither would I take anything for granted with Bulgaria and Italys other games. Its all to play for at this stage - A nice 1-0 win would be loverrrrrlllly!!

I dont think the Bulgaria results are all that relevant to us really. We must get a point from our final two games to be guaranteed a playoff spot ie not finish worst second place, so that is the first and foremost. I think we can beat Italy particularly with Cannavaro missing but I'd probably take a draw now it would mean us going into the final game against Montenegro alot more relaxed, meaning that we would know we cant finish worst second place and secondly that a further point will guarantee second in our own group.

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Originally Posted by elroy

I dont think the Bulgaria results are all that relevant to us really. We must get a point from our final two games to be guaranteed a playoff spot ie not finish worst second place, so that is the first and foremost. I think we can beat Italy particularly with Cannavaro missing but I'd probably take a draw now it would mean us going into the final game against Montenegro alot more relaxed, meaning that we would know we cant finish worst second place and secondly that a further point will guarantee second in our own group.

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I disagree. We need two points to guarantee a playoff spot.

Obviously first and foremost if we look after our own results we will at least guarantee ourselves a playoff spot.

However, should we lose to Italy on the 10th (I pray it doesnt happen but it wouldnt be the shock of the century) and Bulgaria win, then it will be a very nervous night on weds 14th against Montenegro, where we HAVE to WIN just to guarantee a play off spot. Id rather that Bulgaria lost on Saturday 10th and were out of it full stop.

yeah, I agree.

I think that Italy will be more than happy with a draw and will set themselves up for one from the off. So we may as well try and win it, a poxy 1-0 would do us nicely.Duff is a massive loss though, he's probably our most creative player.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

A point against the reigning world champions? I'd bite your hand off for it.

People on here think we are better than we are. We have been extremely lucky thus far in this campaign.

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We should've beaten Italy on their own turf. Granted they had 10 men for most of the game but how often do we see teams that go a man down and can still dominate and win games. Maybe we showed too much respect. A draw is good but i think we can win and it's a must that we go out with that mentality that we can win. It will certainly make the final fixtures much more interesting and just a little more tense for the Italians

Time to up the levels of paranoia.
Anyone remember how Bulgaria sneaked into WC1994 one point ahead of red hot favourites France who lost their last 2 games at home to late goals from Israel and Bulgaria.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Time to up the levels of paranoia.
Anyone remember how Bulgaria sneaked into WC1994 one point ahead of red hot favourites France who lost their last 2 games at home to late goals from Israel and Bulgaria.

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ah yes the Cantona and Ginola bust up followed....

got Houllier the sack too....