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Originally Posted by Mr Parker
That is the biggest fallacy that has been put across in this debate over the last few years. This is not an issue that only 'belongs' to those who go to NI games. This is about what is best for the IFA as a whole. It is an issue that effects every strand of the IFA football family ie those that actually have a stake in football here
Where the NI football team plays is obviously more important to those who watch it play than to public opinion as a whole. Of course I accept that specific groups such as local residents have a crucial interest. What's best for the IFA as a whole is that we have an adequate stadium that fans want to visit, that doesn't incovenience everyone else and which is affordable. So no fallacy. If you want to co-own the issue (or express an opinion, as I'd put it), fine. You can't reasonably expect universal agreement.
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I am not speaking for myself. Previous research has clearly demonstrated that this is the case
Do you have links for this research? Genuine question, I'd like to read it. It's just that studies based on what people will think in 50 years' time strike me less as research, more clairvoyancy.
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Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
Obviously the IFA are just going to preach to the 'converted' by this move
I don't think so. While almost all NI fans I know were opposed to the Maze plan, many (including me) would have preferred a new site close to Belfast city centre, as detailed above and on previous threads. No such site attracted serious interest for development, then the recession kicked in. The redevelopment of Windsor is seen as less than ideal but realistic by many of us.
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They and some of their fanbase claim they're 'open to all', but by not moving they're going to guarantee certain parties would only ever set foot in there, reluctantly at best, if at all
The IFA and NI fans are guaranteeing nothing of the sort. If 'certain parties' continue to boycott Windsor that's a shame. Let's move on.
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Maybe they should look at the bigger picture as MP says and try to incorporate the views of as many people as possible, rather than just 15-20k football fans who after all only represent 1% of the population!
They (the IFA) have done. Their commitment to the Maze plan was foolish, but it could have been worse- not as if we wasted £100 million building the thing. Since then, as I said above, no one has actually been able to put up a sustainable bid for a new build elsewhere in the city. If anyone had done so, we might now be looking at building work in say, the brownfield/ ex-leisure centre area of Ormeau Park.
The ways to incorporate wider views as you suggest are clear enough, and haven't been ignored. To build a stadium in the city, you also need planning consent and co-operation from local residents. business etc. To spend tens of millions on new facilities, you need to get elected in the first place. If those facilities are ludicrously wasteful, as a local politician you can expect not to be re-elected.
As for the 1% dig, clearly far more than that support the NI football. Almost certainly far more than the proportion of the electorate who will decide how to vote based mainly on whether Windsor closes or not.
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That would also include rugby and GAA fans also!
The GAA and IRFU were consulted. Clearly they weren't that bothered. Presumably because neither of them feel they need a new stadium at the Maze, in Nelfast or anywhere else.
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If they want to widen their appeal then they'll have to move to a 'neutral' area....
They are widening their appeal; there is clearly a limit beyond which attempting to widen it further is pointless; I've explained above why no such 'neutral' area has been identified.
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Besides the usual issues regarding their flag, anthem and certain 'attitudes' of their fanbase
If you don't like their 'attitudes' (basically, that they identify with NI and support its football team), you clearly fall beyond the limit above. You aren't ever going to support NI: if you want to influence planning and development in Belfast city, move there and vote. Otherwise, you are just trolling?
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Originally Posted by Back to Walsall
Whilst the opinions of NI fans are abviously important, they are not the be all and end all
On the issue of whether Windsor should be abandoned, they are pretty much the be all and end all. It's a public facility and they are clearly identifiable as the people who use it. Any inconveneience that causes for other people is a factor, but we're not really arguing about that, are we?
Obviously building a new multi-use stadium is a separate and wider issue.
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Any new stadium will be built will also be used for Rugby and other sports, as well as concerts etc.
See above. Rugby and other sports don't need a new stadium, evidence being their lack on interest in lobbying for one, development of their exisiting facilities etc.
Is Belfast really short of an outdoor concert venue? If you don't like Windsor, wouldn't Casement or Ravenhill or the Botanic Gardens do? I don't watch much stadium rock these days, but I'd have guessed that any act likely to fill a stadium would be far more likely just to play Croke (or Lansdowne when it re-opens) in Ireland.
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as one of the taxpayers who will be paying for this venture, I don't really care what NI fans want, and think my opinion should carry exactly the same weight as Raymond Kennedy
Your opinion does carry that same weight as Kennedy's. You want a new stadium in Belfast? Fine, vote and lobby your councillors and MLAs for it. Prefer to leave Windsor ramshackle? Ditto.
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If they want a stadium to suit themselves, they should pay for it themselves. In the meantime the IFA is only a customer with no where else to shop
Obviously they should lobby for what their customers want, including public money. I believe there will be public support for this investment, even if the choice of other developers at which to shop has been slashed by the recession. OK, it won't be 100% public support, but this is Northern Ireland after all...
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Windsor simply isn't suitable, for several reasons
Interesting points about security and access. I think these are less of a problem than you suggest. Car parking does need improvement, but Windsor is within walking distance of the centre (two miles). Without being trite about the riot at the Poland game, those kicking it off would have been able to find the necessary dark alleys somewhere else if they wanted. And in crude cost terms we can't reasonably plan a football stadium in Belfast on the basis that Polish/ English/ whoever's hooligans visit once every five years. I expect your brother reassured you that most other recent internationals/ cup fianls/ big two derbies have passed off largely preacefully?
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There is no shortage of alternative sites owned by Belfast City Council. 2 I would suggest are either Musgrave Park or Boucher Road playing fields. these sites have several advantages over Windsor
Why haven't these sites been discussed along with Ormeau Park/ Mays Field/ North Foreshore/ Blanchflower Park etc.? Again, genuine question.
Personally, I'd have little problem with a stadium at one end of Boucher Road rather than the other. Even if I don't share your confidence that it would solve the political issues. As for infrastructure for GAA matches- you've already got that a mile away at Casement. £27 million is a lot more than £20 million (assuming that new build costs would be similar to Swansea's).
Strictly speaking, aren't the other Boucher Road sites brownfield (ie previously used for industry/ warehousing etc.)?
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One day soon the FAI and IFA should start thinking about a joint bid for the European championships. with Landsowne Rd, Croke PArk, Thomond Park, a stadium in Belfast and a new Brandywell, we would be well on the way to having the facilities
Ha ha. Dublin is already getting a UEFA cup final; the South could quite easily host the U-21 tournament (LoI grounds with a showpiece final), the U-19 in 2005 went well, hopefully Brandywell will be redeveloped. But...there's about as much chance of the senior European championships happening in Ireland as of San Marino playing in them.
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Between us (post recission) we could afford to have the likes of a velodrome, another pool, a rowing lake, an athletics stadium and all sorts of facilities for watersports, boxing etc
Beautifully evocative description. But if you want 3,000,000 people to use facilities, you don't put them in Aughnacloy. Much as I love it, it's a rural village.
Surely it's opposition to the sweetheart contract between Linfield and the IFA? Which would go as part of any deal to refurb Windsor? Sounds like half-hearted whinging by Glentoran to me.
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Originally Posted by punkrocket
could also have lower running costs whilst integrating technologies such as renewables and low carbon design(a consideration which is going to be more pressing for everyone whether we like it or not before too long)
The refurb of Windsor would involve two entirely new stands. I don't pretend to understand the engineering, but why can't they incorporate that new technology?
