Do Irish Fans over-rate our players?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

ALL fans overrate their own players.

Except me.

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And me too! :D

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Seriously though, I think an_ceannaire has a valid point. Otherwise, if it was obvious exactly how good (or otherwise) a player really is, why would fans of rival teams spend so much time in pubs and Message Boards etc arguing over it?

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I admit that an_ceannaire has a point, but the truth is that there are some very good (possibly world-class) Irish players. With regard to your point about 'if it was obvious exactly how good (or otherwise) a player really is', and about people arguing over how good they are, would you say it wasn't obvious that Cristiano Ronaldo was world class, just because people argue over his credentials as a player?

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In the end, the best teams are the ones which win the most games and they do so because they have the best players. So if you want to see how "good" a player really is, see how he and his team is doing.

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To be fair, team performance is different to individual ability, but you have a point.

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Note: When talking about "his" team, for some reason which I can't really fathom, sometimes players shine for their club team, but not for their international team (or vice versa). Which is why eg David Healy looked genuinely "world class" when scoring a hattrick against Spain on his way to breaking Davor Suker's European Championships goal record :cool:, but has looked a bit of a pudding both at Fulham and Sunderland.:eek:

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David Healy never made it at United and has never appeared to play very well (from my observation) with any of his club teams and he seems to be putting on a bit of weight now, but with N.I. he plays well. I wonder is it his mentality of playing in the knowledge that he is effectively a 'big fish in a small pond' with N.I. and with his clubs he hasn't had this status?

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Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

Seems to be something (especially in here) that happens a lot. We seem to always over rate our players and we get all precious then when others dont agree!
Take the following examples
We thought Shay Given was in the top 3 keepers in the world, no one else did/does. Cue cries of indignation when ever people put Van Der Sar/Cech etc ahead of him. If he was THAT good why did no top club ever show an interest?
We thought Damien Duff was world class! He spent 2 years doing well at Chelsea and was deemed surplus to requirements and gotten rid of. Now when he should be at his peak he is preparing for life in english footballs second tier
Some here would tell you Richard Dunne is John Terrys equal!! Again, no one outside Ireland would agree and with City looking to get rid, he is being linked with the likes of Sunderland!!!
Andy Reid, some of ye see him as the missing link that will make us a real team again......shame no one told Roy Keane/Ricky Sbragia/Martin Jol/Ramos that. They cant see it!

At one stage some of ye thought Steve Finnan was of to Inter Milan and Gary Breen was going to Barca!!!

And dare anyone suggest otherwise.......

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i would only consider buffon ahead of given, finnan up to a few years ago was one of the best full backs in europe , no one thought gary breen was world class but he did have a medical with barce/inter milan a far as i know. Duff at his peak was world class and if any1 else thinks otherwise then , im sorry , but they dont have a clue, i will tell you Dunne IS one of the best centre backs in the prem and he will prove it this season and city are treating him like sh*te , if dunne was english ,the british tabloids would have him rated at 30million sterling, andy reid is a very good player but i dont think he is raved about on FOOT, plus i dont think he would fit into traps tactics so therefore he aint the missing link


we obviously dont all agree on players ability ere , but i dont think we over rate our players - we have some extremely good players e.g keane, given, dunne, etc but we also realise we are a small nation with a small pool etc etc and we have some very ordinary players also

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I said both of these things.

My simple view is that Doyle is better than Bendtner who plays for Arsenal quite regularly. He's not a patch on Van Persie or Adebayor though. Dunne is better than any CB at Arsenal, bar Gallas maybe, but Gallas blows hot & cold. CB has been a glaring weak spot in Arsenal's team for a long time. Arsenal lack maturity, character, leadership and physicality in certain areas. Both those Irish players have great attitudes. They'd be relatively cheap and good business for a club operating on a budget and whose squad has been stretched very thin by regular injuries to their better players. If Arsenal had pots of money they could do a lot better.

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imo stutts , you are right , doyle is far better than bendter and also agree with ur anaolgy on dunne......as u say who is overrated here?

It's a bit of a mixed bunch. Some of our players are hyped, but others are definitely unfairly written off. We do have a tendency to put unrealistic expectations on young players; players like Stephen McPhail, Richie Partridge, Graham Barrett, Michael Reddy, Shaun Thornton, Jason Gavin, Darren Potter and (so far) Anthony Stokes all failed to live up to initial media hype, based solely on performances with successful underage teams. However, looking back, it appears that we (fans and media) sorely under-rated players like Carsley, Holland, Kinsella, Cunningham and Gary Kelly; all solid pros who contributed to decent, competitive Irish teams. Going further back, even Niall Quinn, Townsend, Cascarino, McLoughlin and Phelan incurred criticism from fans and media for not being 'top class'.

Most of our current squad would probably struggle to make an impression at top 4 Premiership clubs, but that's not exactly a revelatory statement. Sweden only have two players playing for 'G14' clubs. Croatia have three, and that's the kind of standard we're trying to aspire to. The likes of Dunne, St. Ledger, McGeady, Hunt, Steven Reid, Andrews and Doyle aren't going to be strutting their stuff for Barca or Inter anytime soon, but as long as we're good enough to beat Cyprus and Montenegro, and win a play-off against a similarly average European side, I'll be happy. Some people seem to think that if our players aren't playing for Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal, they - and the national team - must be rubbish, and incapable of competing or qualifying for anything. It's just not true.

An Ceannaire raises an interesting point. I think we do over-rate our players.

Although Keane is by far our best striker he wouldn't be in the top 15 strikers in the EPL and he may find himself picking splinters out of his arse this season if Crouch and Defoe link up like they did at Portsmouth.

Poor Kevin Kilbane has been a hero for Ireland in the past but based on his last few performance's it is time that he got lolli-popped. He's gives his heart and soul for 90 minutes but he has cost us 4 valuable points against Bulgaria and there could be worse to come. If it were to happen again and he cost's us points and possible qualification for next summer people won't remember him for the good games.

I'm saving my judgement on younger players like Fahey, McCann and McCarthy until I see how regularly they feature and how they perform this season.

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Originally Posted by Lenny82

An Ceannaire raises an interesting point. I think we do over-rate our players.
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Poor Kevin Kilbane has been a hero for Ireland in the past but based on his last few performance's it is time that he got lolli-popped. He's gives his heart and soul for 90 minutes but he has cost us 4 valuable points against Bulgaria and there could be worse to come. If it were to happen again and he cost's us points and possible qualification for next summer people won't remember him for the good games.

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em, I don't think Kilbane is highly rated by Ireland fans...

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Originally Posted by back of the net

imo stutts , you are right , doyle is far better than bendter and also agree with ur anaolgy on dunne......as u say who is overrated here?

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What are you on about?? Nicklas Bendtnar is 21 years old. He is a big, strong, mobile player (8 goals in 26 international games)

Doyle will be 26 in 2 months and has 6 goals in 26 international games.

Doyle is a very good player, but to compare him to Bendtner, who is 4 years his junior and has a similar goalscoring record already is ridiculous!!

In Club terms Doyle has 56 goals in 160 games, Bendtner has 37 in 130. Considering Doyle played 2 of those seasons in the Championship against lesser talented opposition and that he was first choice striker for almost 3 of those seasons and Bendtner had one season in the Championship as first choice and has never been a first choice starter for Arsenal i think his record more that stands up to Doyles.

That is a prime example of Irish Fans over-rating their players!!!!

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Originally Posted by endabob1

I remember the NI commentator (Jackie Fullerton?) referring to David Healy as "truely world class" at a time when he couldn't get in the Fulham team

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:D Nothing like a goal against Liechtenstein to get Jackie Fullerton as excited as an orangeman on the Garvahy.

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Originally Posted by wexfordned

Trappatoni gets stick for his tactics, but with the limited ability of the players available for selection this is the best way for the team to get results.

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Have to say I don't recall many people complaining about Trapps tactics here.. Tactics on the pitch anyway.

Not nearly as much as other countries. I was in Morocco couple years ago when they were in the final of the African Nations Cup. I also went to a couple club matches there, talk about delusion. I won't even repeat some of the crap I heard there. If anything I see a lot of negativity about our players (this thread being an example). I don't see anyone on here claiming we are worldbeaters

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I said both of these things.

My simple view is that Doyle is better than Bendtner who plays for Arsenal quite regularly. He's not a patch on Van Persie or Adebayor though. Dunne is better than any CB at Arsenal, bar Gallas maybe, but Gallas blows hot & cold. CB has been a glaring weak spot in Arsenal's team for a long time. Arsenal lack maturity, character, leadership and physicality in certain areas. Both those Irish players have great attitudes. They'd be relatively cheap and good business for a club operating on a budget and whose squad has been stretched very thin by regular injuries to their better players. If Arsenal had pots of money they could do a lot better.

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If Wegner had bought Given and Dunne 2 or 3 years ago Arsenal would have challenged more the last few years then they did. Could you imagine Richard Dunne doing what Gallas did at Birmingham? He could do worse then looking at Dunne now.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

What are you on about?? Nicklas Bendtnar is 21 years old. He is a big, strong, mobile player (8 goals in 26 international games)

Doyle will be 26 in 2 months and has 6 goals in 26 international games.

Doyle is a very good player, but to compare him to Bendtner, who is 4 years his junior and has a similar goalscoring record already is ridiculous!!

In Club terms Doyle has 56 goals in 160 games, Bendtner has 37 in 130. Considering Doyle played 2 of those seasons in the Championship against lesser talented opposition and that he was first choice striker for almost 3 of those seasons and Bendtner had one season in the Championship as first choice and has never been a first choice starter for Arsenal i think his record more that stands up to Doyles.

That is a prime example of Irish Fans over-rating their players!!!!

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Can't agree. Doyle may have been playing in the Championship but Arsenal create a hell of a lot more chances then Reading so it cuts both ways. Bendtner is poor for me, Doyle would put away far more on a goals per chances ratio.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

He is a big, strong, mobile player (8 goals in 26 international games)

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with a really suspect temprament, questionable work ethic and an appalling goals-to-opportunities ratio. Ask any Arsenal fan if they rate him and you'll get a resounding no. Stuttgart were interested in buying him for £8m apparently - Arsenal should have taken it. He's got potential but once an arrogant trouble-maker, always an arrogant trouble maker.

Stuff club form & comparisons anyway: I've been more than happy with Doyle's performances for Ireland. He is vital to Trap's system, just as Aldridge was to Jack's. He's selfless, physical and good in the air but has yet to click with Keane properly and gets woeful service from midfield.

I'd prefer to have Torres available for us but we don't. I don't think I overate Doyle but I've been very happy with most of his Irish performance over the last year and a bit.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Can't agree. Doyle may have been playing in the Championship but Arsenal create a hell of a lot more chances then Reading so it cuts both ways. Bendtner is poor for me, Doyle would put away far more on a goals per chances ratio.

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Arsenal create a lot more chances than Reading, but Bendtner has never been a first choice striker for them, like Doyle was at Reading. Most Arsenal fans are happy that Bendtner will get more chances now that Adebayor is gone.

But you probably have more knowledge than Arsene Wenger, he's only brought through one or two top class players.

I don't know any Arsenal fan that rates Bendtner & thinks he is ready to step in for Adebayor.

Wenger is a superb manager but is well known to have his blind spots. It's also well known that the Arsenal dressing room is a fragile place - Bendtner is not the type of personality Arsenal needs. The other players - not just Adebayor - don't have much time for him. For a big guy his reaction to going north in the Carling Cup against teams like Burnley made me squirm with embarassment.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

Arsenal create a lot more chances than Reading, but Bendtner has never been a first choice striker for them, like Doyle was at Reading. Most Arsenal fans are happy that Bendtner will get more chances now that Adebayor is gone.

But you probably have more knowledge than Arsene Wenger, he's only brought through one or two top class players.

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no one here is doubting wengers knowledge , ppl are just giving their opinion.

from what i have seen of doyle and bendtner - i think doyle is a far better player than bendtner. I think he gives alot more to the team as a whole than bendtner.

Your comments bout bendtner being younger and his limited starts are correct and fair. But doyle has been played regularly out of position for reading and also has poorer players around him.

In time you maybe proved right about bendtner , but a player can only be judged on what he has produced on the pitch and from i have seen i believe doyle is a better player and would take him everytime ahead of bendtner.


bendtner has come through arsenals academy - i dont believe that if bendtner was at another club now that arsenal would sign him - wengers consistent refusal to spend money on players is what is keeping bendtner at the club imo and is the reason he is getting games



as you say now thats abedayor is gone - he will get a chance to prove himself and u may well be proved right ....but i doubt it

but only time will tell

With Bendtner it's all about potential. If he was at his current level in 5 years he won't be playing for Arsenal and certainly won't be getting sold for £6.5m.

Football365 letters page has had a lot of Arsenal fans stating that they are delighted that Adebayor is gone and that Bendtner will be able to fill his boots.

He is, and will in the future, be better than Doyle, who is not even guarenteed to be Wolves first choice striker.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

But you probably have more knowledge than Arsene Wenger, he's only brought through one or two top class players.

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Good point. From now on we won't bother rating players at all, we'll just look first to see who has managed them and whatever rating we give the manager we'll just give to the player too.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

Football365 letters page has had a lot of Arsenal fans stating that they are delighted that Adebayor is gone and that Bendtner will be able to fill his boots.

He is, and will in the future, be better than Doyle, who is not even guarenteed to be Wolves first choice striker.

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oh well ,if alot of Arsenal fans say it on FOOTBALL 365 about an Arsenal player then you must be right.....Did you ever think maybe its the Arsenal fans who are the ones overrating their player??

imo he is currently not a patch on kevin doyle ...and i cant see him being much better than doyle in the future....but thats just my opinion