Catholic Primary Schools

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Originally Posted by Shilts

Some time could be given during the week for the local rabbi, druid, mullah or priest to come into the school and preach their thing.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

I've no interest in removing "all public reference to religion, be it in school, in work, or elsewhere " by the way. I'd like it out of the ethos, enrollment and employment policies of schools though.

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I agree totally with the idea that children should be taught about world religions, if only so that they can appreciate much of the great art, music and literature produced in the name of, or inspired by, or in response to, religious belief. It's important to understand where we came from and the different systems of belief, not so much because you can then evaluate the differences between them, but so that you can see the similarities and the needs humankind has had over the past few thousand years and so begin to appreciate our common humanity.

thischarmingman, "rubbish" isn't an acceptable argument in here. Keep the rhetoric to yourself please.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

thischarmingman, "rubbish" isn't an acceptable argument in here. Keep the rhetoric to yourself please.

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This is true, edited. :)

I just found this thread and it is extremely interesting with great arguments put forward so far...

From my viewpoint I don't think there is a problem in the way religion is taught in primary or secondary schools for that matter. Fair enough in primary it is 'mandatory' to make your communion and confirmation but realisticly how many kids actually know what these occassions are about?! And yes this then leads to argument should the children be participating in such 'ceremonies' when they don't fully understand what they are?! The majority of parents are Roman Catholic and want/expect their kids to follow in their religious paths. The same occurs in secondary school with school masses and the graduation ceremonies usually has a mass.

Most children/teens these days don't really give thought about religion. Fact. And if they do, I think they would be more than capable in exploring different religions because now more than ever there is exposure of other religion instead of Roman Catholic dominance particulary with access to internet etc. Personally, after a couple of dramatic few months I started reading the Bible. Not a deeply religious person at all but I figured billions of people believe in the writings of this book and I wanted to more or less see whats in it. My point being that I am taking it upon myself to see what being Catholic is and I think the youth of our nation can do the same when they reach that point in their lives.

Just my lil thoughts on the debate:o

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Originally Posted by shantykelly

and your source for this is...

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It's in the news every year when it comes to enrolment time, and at the start of the school term. Religious schools are exempt from equality legislation, and over 90% of state funded schools claim to be Catholic ethos and can therefore legally discriminate. Fall out with the local PP, and have your children blocked from attending the local national school. It is that fear that stops any local campaign's to get them changed over to secular/ non denomination. Try and fail - have it taken out on your child(ren). We're still ruled by fear of the Church in some elements of our society.

Given the falling attendances, and even less following the actual teachings of the church faithfully, there's no justification for over 90% of primary schools being catholic.

btw It didn't help that out population exploded when we had a supposedly card carrying opus dei member as Minister for Education...

Some very good posts here.
The problem at the moment is that the majority (Roman Catholics) do not see anything wrong with the status quo. They think that its ok to send the atheists kid to a corner with a book while the teacher spends tax payers money telling 'fairy tales' as truths.

Kids of the non-catholics are made to feel outcasts in their own community. This is wrong!

This is not a million miles away from the 'divorce debate' we had in this country not too long ago. "Why do we need divorce? shur most people don't need it".

We need to stand up for the minorities as has happened with divorce and the smoking ban (slightly different).

Catholics can still have their kids taught about that stuff, just not in schooltime and not by civil servants (teachers).

If you were an employee of say the Planning Department of Cork County Council and you were not a Catholic, but every morning the head of the department came in and got everyone to join him in vocal prayer - there would be murder and rightly so!!!
Yet people think that its ok for kids to be exposed to this kind of fundamentalism (no apologies for using this word!) daily!

Everybody has an opinion and maybe I'm the one thats out of line. But if you disagree with me, think of your catholic child in a state funded muslim school. How happy would you be with that? :)

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

How about we let the parents decide?

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That would be fine if they all had a choice. The vast majority don't as the only school in a commutable distance is RC.

Shantykelly-Buddha was saying the same stuff Jesus said before him. BOth were imo very smart men and most of what they said was simply common sense and decency. You dont need to believe in the religious aspects to have morals. Fact is most who claim to be Catholics in this country, arent. And if it were up to them and their parish to prepare the kids for communion, rather than the teachers, there would be a lot fewer communions and confirmations.

Educate together schools teach the learn together program, in which they teach about all religions(without pushing any) and a moral curriculum. Imo it is the ideal curriculum for primary school.

If there was a multidenominational school in every locality then parents can choose to send their kids to RC schools if they want and I wouldnt have a problem, Its the lack of choice I have a problem with.

Can primary schools decriminate when hiring teachers? I think I teachers need a separate qualification for teaching religion? Do primary schools have a religion curriculum?

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Originally Posted by pete

Can primary schools decriminate when hiring teachers?

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Yes, I can technically be fired for being an atheist. As can anyone who goes against the ethos of the school(someone gay or someone living with a partner while unmarried).

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Originally Posted by pete

I think I teachers need a separate qualification for teaching religion?

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Yes, a diploma in religion

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Originally Posted by pete

Do primary schools have a religion curriculum?

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Yes, the Alive-O curriculum. Even from a religious view its a ridiculous curriculum. An example being that in the 5th class one, under the chapter about prophets, Bono is named as a modern day one.

Religion is allocated 30 minutes a day, more time than every subject bar english, Irish and maths.

I am surprised there have not been any discrimination cases in the courts regarding primary schools. That said I believe the Church of Ireland favour the status quo.

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Originally Posted by micls

Religion is allocated 30 minutes a day, more time than every subject bar english, Irish and maths.

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Maybe theology will the boom industry of the Tiger Part II. :eek:

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Originally Posted by pete

I am surprised there have not been any discrimination cases in the courts regarding primary schools.

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Schools, hospitals and churches are exempt from the equality legislation.

Equal Status Act 2000.

Barrosso was going to push the government about it pre-Lisbon treaty but they backed down at the eleventh hour over fears the church would tell their flock to vote no.

Also, to challenge it as an Irish citizen, you need to exhaust all domestic legal avenues first before taking it to the European Justice Court. Expensive process!

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Originally Posted by adamd164

Barrosso was going to push the government about it pre-Lisbon treaty but they backed down at the eleventh hour over fears the church would tell their flock to vote no.

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Not saying the government did not back down but do the Cathloic church have the power to get their flock to do anything? Maybe perception out of tune with reality?

I don't think the church have instructed their members to vote any direction in recent years?

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Originally Posted by micls

Religion is allocated 30 minutes a day, more time than every subject bar english, Irish and maths.

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Holy crap- that is totally outrageous! What a scandalous waste of public money.

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Originally Posted by pete

Not saying the government did not back down but do the Cathloic church have the power to get their flock to do anything? Maybe perception out of tune with reality?

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I think you're being a bit naive there. There are still large sections of the population who'll pay heed to what the parish priest does or does not reckon to be a good idea when it comes to voting time. Largely older generation, true, but they knew that every vote would count.

It doesn't necessarily have to be preached directly during sermons either - if the EU ****ed off the Catholic Church, Ltd as an entity (a business, I'd prefer to call it, but whatever your inclination) prior to a referendum of that magnitude, and the CCL were expressing their disappointment with the system and how it's secularising and materialising cat-lick Ireland, that'd do just as well for arousing suspicion and distrust of a united Europe and where we were heading among said voting demographic.

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Originally Posted by micls

That would be fine if they all had a choice. The vast majority don't as the only school in a commutable distance is RC.

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There seem to be schools of thought about it. Some believe that we should swap from an almost entirely catholic system to and almost entirely secular one. I'd be of the other point of view, that we should have more choice rather than replacing one uniform system with another.

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Originally Posted by micls

Buddha was saying the same stuff Jesus said before him. BOth were imo very smart men and most of what they said was simply common sense and decency..

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just as Bob Geldof and to a lesser degree John Lennon in our generation,
good men who used their fame to espose a message of good will to and an effort to help others less fortunate than us. who knows in 2000 years time maybe history will be so distorted that Sir Bob will be god :)

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

just as Bob Geldof and to a lesser degree John Lennon in our generation,
good men who used their fame to espose a message of good will to and an effort to help others less fortunate than us. who knows in 2000 years time maybe history will be so distorted that Sir Bob will be god :)

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Now that'd be funny ...a God who reckoned his own existence was very improbable.

I find a lot of the post here interesting.

A lot of broad sweeping statements and half truths.

The Churches own the land that most schools are built on (btw the figure of 98% of schools being Catholic is wrong, nearer to 91% although the figure for Catholic and CoI would be near enough to 98%). The Churches funded part of the building of these schools. The Churchs fund part of the running of these schools. By law in Ireland schools can discrimiate in recruitment and enrollment on grounds of religion. Thats the way it is.

For a long long time the various religions/churches bailed the government out of having to provide for education properly. Its not their fault that they want to maintain their own ethos nor is it their fault that the state has failed to provide an alternative.

If you think the bank bailout costs money try to make all the schools secular. That'd be one hell of a CPO bill:eek:

You're right, but the Church educates in order to "educate". That's why they got into the business, and it needs to stop, even if it's a gradual process. The entire education system is up in a heap because of their inability and unwillingness to cooperate, with each other and with "outsiders". If education doesn't work, the country doesn't work.