They do but now those conversations can be used in court. Before they could only be used to to help the guards build up a picture.
Printable View
They do but now those conversations can be used in court. Before they could only be used to to help the guards build up a picture.
"No, your honour, we've no evidence that he's ever actually done anything wrong, but we don't like the people he's hanging around with."
Oh yeah, that's a good idea.
Totally agree...in particular take out the leaders, the foot soldiers would then fade away. Clearly not the most humane practice and it is a human life but these people cannot be treated as such. They are animals. They have gone beyond thugs just killing other criminals. They have gone up the levels in the last few years, they have no respect for other human beings. You avoid these people like the plague in Limerick City in case you give a wrong look innocently. They are living off their names particulary the younger breed, boys and girls. Its now a cancer that won't be gotten rid of with legislation I can guarantee it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilts
The Gardai kinda helped "eliminate" Martin Cahill the time he was shot.They mysteriously:rolleyes: werent around Cahill's house the morning a IRA Hit Man just happened to be in the neighbourhood.I know that that was taking a human life but a MASSIVE headache for the Gardai and a threat to the public was extinguished when he was assinated.I also realise the IRA aint around now:rolleyes:;) but im sure there's be someone willing to try something.
And the killing of Cahill made a huge difference didn't it ? The point about taking the leaders out and the foot soldiers out will just fade away is just plain wrong. There will always be somebody willing and able to step into the vaccum. As attractive as a "take em out" policy is (and believe me i wouldn't lament the loss of a single one of these low life) I have to believe that the answer is in the rule of law. The alternatives are too scary. Good smart police work, effective legislation, an efficient court system, adequate sentencing and a penal system that works. It's not a quick option or an easy one, but it's the only hope we've got.*
Just as an aside, If the cops do intend to start using, or increase their use of, this technology, then the last thing it surely needs is this kind of publicity. Any criminal with half a brain will be much more careful now.
* Of course there are a lot of arguments to be made too about social policy and what creates these kind of ghettos in the first place.
Or legalise drugs - take the market from under them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
Mind you, whilst one Minister is annoucing a crack down, another is issuing an international haulage licence to a convicted traffiker...
More dynamic, groundbreaking legislation from our overlords.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0513/crime.html
If I were inclined to intimidate a witness I'd be put right back in my box by the increase from 10 years to 15 years if convicted for doing so.
Why do I suspect we're going to have to wait til it's an Ahern or a Cowen who's murdered before we get something with a bit of balls?
Its like our own Patriot Act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
True. Pointless change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Could this not be abused? Remember Donegal?Quote:
Among the other provisions to be included in the new legislation, the expert opinion of senior gardaí as to the existence and operation of criminal gangs will be allowed as evidence in criminal trials.
Innocent until proven guilty gone?Quote:
The courts will be allowed to draw inferences from failure to answer questions, failure to account for movements, actions, activities or associations.
I am not standing up for criminals but is this constitutional & will it pass without a legal challenge by liberal do-gooder?
Licenced handguns are to be banned that should clean up the streets as the criminals allways made sure they had the correct licences for their guns before shooting innocents.
mighty fine law making there. :rolleyes:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0515/lucan.html
A good days work by the Gardai. Regrettable that someone had to die, but its big boy rules. If they can take this whole gang off the streets it'll make a difference.Quote:
A 27-year-old man with an address at Sheriff Street in Dublin City, died in hospital after he was shot by gardaí.
The incident happened just after 12pm today during an operation by the Organised Crime Unit on the Foxborough Roa
A second man is understood to have serious injuries and is being treated in hospital.
Gardaí later arrested three men in the Neilstown area after they stopped what they believed was a get-away vehicle.
That's a pretty silly comment to make, Ringo. There are two possibilities - A: The guards knew about this raid in advance and bungled the operation so badly that someone got killed, or B: The decision to use lethal force was made at strategic rather than operational level, and for PR reasons.
Personally I'd rather not see the police force extinguishing the lives of citizens to protect private property in the absence of any threat to the public (that's the government's job!) Conflating this incident with the gang problem in Limerick is a cynical little ploy by the authorities which I'd like to think most people are intelligent enough to see through.
Sheridan, why do you discount the existence of a possibilty C? (though you subsequently hint at it) ....namely that a cop at the scene made a split second call that there was now a real threat to the public, himself or his colleagues. Subsequently there was gunplay and someone died ...No malice aforethought ...just the way the dice fell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
In a way it ties in with your possibility A I suppose but I wouldn't call it bungled purely on the basis a raider died ...a less favourable outcome for sure but not bungled.
There is a possibility the cops knew about the raid, were set up and waiting and challenged the raiders to drop their weapons and get their hands up. NOW Freeze time in that instant ...or slow it down to a crawl at least. A raider reaches for something (probably a weapon) having being challenged and ordered to halt.
What do you do? Wait to see if it's a gun? or a grenade? or whether he's able to draw a bead on you or a colleague? I don't think I'm unreasonable or in favour of summary justice for saying I certainly wouldn't.
I find your possibility B -summary justice for PR sake -somewhat improbable. Even if I thought there were elements in favour of it high up in the Gardai, the government or dept of Justice ...I can't think of many concrete examples of apptitude in the planning and executive end of things that'd be neccessary to bring it to fruition.
And why just off one raider if that's the policy? In a country and culture in love with vulgar statement ...why not wipe out an entire gang in a stroke?
As someone who's been at the end of several raids, you'll forgive me for taking pleasure in the fact that a gang has been caught in the act. As our laws stands the guards had to wait for the gang to start the raid. The fact that the guy used his weapon is not the guards fault.The Gurds would have had information, but not a minute by minute account of how it was going to run. its not a film.The guy that was shot had a loaded shotgun discharded it. That was his decision. The Garda ombudsman will investigate the case. We have a serious gang problem in Dublin too. Its not just all about Limerick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Spot on Lionel, it sort of goes back to the old adage; "You live by the sword, you die by the sword"! I don't know the ins and outs of this particular situation but in general if you're going to be running around with a loaded firearm and posing a danger to the Public and the Gardai, then I'm sorry, it's unfortunate but if you get shot most people myself included wouldn't shed a tear, you made the choice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
LR, there was allegedly one shell discharged, and at least two raiders injured (one fatally, one critically) by Garda gunfire. The unit involved was Organised Crime, not the ERU - they were not responding to a contingency, they were tracking the operation and let it go too far, either through incompetence or design. And yes, I know of at least one instance in which an offender was shot dead in a sting operation despite the fact that the Guards knew he was carrying a replica weapon. The officer himself was later killed by friendly fire in another botched operation, which just goes to show.
Ringo - of course they had up-to-the-minute information, they were tailing the gang! They could have pulled them over for firearms offences and possibly conspiracy at any time, but chose to endanger the security personnel and public by letting it run its course.
The legislation is in place for less than a week and already mission creep is setting in to justify offing people in Dublin with no proven links to "gangland crime", whatever that means. This is how it happens.
...from a sawn off shotgun. All bets are off thereafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
We don't know how many of them had weapons. How many checks under fire do you expect the guards to make when presented with beligerents who've been told to surrender and who've chosen to open fire?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
define 'too far'? You STILL get a relative slap on the wrists in this country for possessing a firearm. They were probably right to try and catch them in the act for armed robbery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
...they presumably didn't know what ELSE he or his collaborators were carrying. As someone else has already told you -this isn't the movies and these things don't run like clockwork. If they did no-one, especially the garda you mention, would've gotten hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Well, your speculation is no worse than mine or anyone elses but it's still just that -speculation. And as I said, they were right to try and nail these guys for armed robbery rather than weapons possession.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
WTF? New legislation has been announced. So far as I know it could be well into next year before a scratch of it comes onto the books.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
these people deserve everything they get, and the gardai involved deserve a medal, they did their job very well, excellently in fact, they prevented a crime, apprehended 5 out of 6 very very dangerous criminals at least one of whom who "allegedly" was involved in the tiger kidnapping and resulting bank robbery in Dublin city centre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
they were tailing the gang to an extent, but obviously there was more than one vehicle, who is to say where the guns were, all the gardai knew was there was a job going down somewhere in Lucan by members of this gang for all they knew the information they had was false, and even if it was true whats the say the guns were on their person while they were travelling to the job? they could have been stashed somewhere offside prior to this and were collecting them on the way.
and it was a National Bureau of Criminal Investgation operation of which the Organised Crime Unit, the National Surveillance Unit and Emergency Response Unit are a part of, along with other units.
and finally no proven links to gangland crime????? please
Your post would be a lot more credible without the "they deserve a medal" nonsense, and the personal comment you got an infraction for. Calm down, think before posting.
I wonder whill the investigation focuds on why the Gardai had to discharge their weapons when they were tracking the gang? Surely could have intercepted the gang before they even left their vehicles?
But surely it would have been just possession of a weapon. I do have resevations about letting these things ago ahead & the threat to innocent bystanders. Very risky. Seems to be in a residential area.