Should the Domestic players be playing on the national squad

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jay1

If you look at the Northern Ireland Squad a lot of their players would be playing in leagues of a similar standard to our premier league, yet Northern Ireland are on Top of their World Cup Qualifying Group??

---

Really?

Fyi, the Starting XI which beat Slovenia on Wednesday was as follows:

Taylor (Birmingham City)
McAuley (Ipswich Town)
Hughes (Fulham)
Evans (Man.Utd.)
McCartney (Sunderland)
Johnson (Birmingham City)
Clingan (Norwich City)
McCann (Scunthorpe Utd.)
Davis (Rangers)
Healy (Sunderland)
Feeney (Dundee Utd.)

So that's 4 x English Premier League, 4 x Championship, 2 x SPL and 1 X English League One.

Now there may not be too many "stars" there, but there is still only one who might remotely be said to be playing at a similar standard to the Eircom, i.e. Grant McCann of Scunthorpe. And even there, I fail to see how a League such as the Eircom, the great majority of whose players are part-time, playing in poor stadia in front of crowds of a couple of thousand etc, may be said to be comparable to an entirely full-time set-up such as League One, which also has clubs like Leicester City and Leeds Utd etc.
And in any case, from his NI performances, it is a complete mystery to me how/why McCann is not playing at a higher level (though he might yet be next season, via the play-offs).
Moreover, had Chris Brunt (WBA) not been suspended, it is possible McCann might have only been on the bench anyhow.

P.S. Although NI are proving competitive in a decent enough Group, it should still be acknowledged that a key factor in our presently being top is that we are the only team to have played San Marino twice so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Really?

Fyi, the Starting XI which beat Slovenia on Wednesday was as follows:

Taylor (Birmingham City)
McAuley (Ipswich Town)
Hughes (Fulham)
Evans (Man.Utd.)
McCartney (Sunderland)
Johnson (Birmingham City)
Clingan (Norwich City)
McCann (Scunthorpe Utd.)
Davis (Rangers)
Healy (Sunderland)
Feeney (Dundee Utd.)

So that's 4 x English Premier League, 4 x Championship, 2 x SPL and 1 X English League One.

Now there may not be too many "stars" there, but there is still only one who might remotely be said to be playing at a similar standard to the Eircom, i.e. Grant McCann of Scunthorpe. And even there, I fail to see how a League such as the Eircom, the great majority of whose players are part-time, playing in poor stadia in front of crowds of a couple of thousand etc, may be said to be comparable to an entirely full-time set-up such as League One, which also has clubs like Leicester City and Leeds Utd etc.
And in any case, from his NI performances, it is a complete mystery to me how/why McCann is not playing at a higher level (though he might yet be next season, via the play-offs).
Moreover, had Chris Brunt (WBA) not been suspended, it is possible McCann might have only been on the bench anyhow.

P.S. Although NI are proving competitive in a decent enough Group, it should still be acknowledged that a key factor in our presently being top is that we are the only team to have played San Marino twice so far.

---

No offense but a lot of the teams such as ipswich,scunthorpe,Dundee,Norwich I wouldnt say are much better than say Cork,Bohs or Drogheda who remember last year almost knocked out Dynamo Kiev in a 2nd round Champions League qualifier with a 2-2 away Draw with Dynamo Kiev just loosing out 4-3 on aggregate. Dynamo kiev after that game went on to hammer spartak moscow in the 3rd round to qualify for the Champions league.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jay1

No offense but a lot of the teams such as ipswich,scunthorpe,Dundee,Norwich I wouldnt say are much better than say Cork,Bohs or Drogheda who remember last year almost knocked out Dynamo Kiev in a 2nd round Champions League qualifier with a 2-2 away Draw with Dynamo Kiev just loosing out 4-3 on aggregate. Dynamo kiev after that game went on to hammer spartak moscow in the 3rd round to qualify for the Champions league.

---

No offence taken, so I hope you'll not take any offence when I state that I think you're barking if you seriously consider Cork, Bohs or Drogheda to be anything apporoaching the equal of Ipswich Town or Norwich City!
As for the other two teams, it's Dundee United of the SPL, not Dundee FC, whom Feeney plays for (though both can claim to be "bigger" in just about every respect than anything found in the Eircom).
As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/p...,10442,00.html
In any case, League One only accounts for one player in the NI team, not the "many" to which I originally took exception.

P.S. As for your "Tale of what might have been" (Drogs in Europe), just Google "Ipswich Town", "Norwich City" and "Dundee United", along with "European football" and you'll see all three individually have records somewhat in excess of that of the entire Eircom League combined!

Ipswich and Norwich's teams are well ahead of the League of Ìreland (no longer Eircom League) but Dundee United (including Noel Hunt) looked very ordinary when we played them in a friendly last year. Obviously it's only a friendly but I wouldn't dismiss the idea of LOI teams being on par with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

No offence taken, so I hope you'll not take any offence when I state that I think you're barking if you seriously consider Cork, Bohs or Drogheda to be anything apporoaching the equal of Ipswich Town or Norwich City!
As for the other two teams, it's Dundee United of the SPL, not Dundee FC, whom Feeney plays for (though both can claim to be "bigger" in just about every respect than anything found in the Eircom).
As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/p...,10442,00.html
In any case, League One only accounts for one player in the NI team, not the "many" to which I originally took exception.

P.S. As for your "Tale of what might have been" (Drogs in Europe), just Google "Ipswich Town", "Norwich City" and "Dundee United", along with "European football" and you'll see all three individually have records somewhat in excess of that of the entire Eircom League combined!

---

I am not saying anything bad about the Northern Ireland team in fact the opposite I admire them, I wish our team with its superstars could beat the likes of spain etc, unfortunately it could be a case of egos being too big with some players, it looks on the pitch like other players couldnt give a crap, and some are just wondering what they are doing there at all. I bet if we let our domestic players have a game like Jason Byrne etc they would do better than some of those Premiership Players. Anyway we will never find out because the Media picks our team for us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philly

Pretty much. Until they have proven themselves to be consstently good at a higher level.

---

I'd pretty much agree with that. Except for keepers- you can make an equal judgement with them easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/p...,10442,00.html

---

Glanford Park isn't as good as Turners Cross. It has two terraced stands compared to an all-seater venue in Cork, capacity 9,000 which is the same as us. I doubt Scunthorpe United get average crowds of 3-4,500 either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Umberside

Glanford Park isn't as good as Turners Cross. It has two terraced stands compared to an all-seater venue in Cork, capacity 9,000 which is the same as us. I doubt Scunthorpe United get average crowds of 3-4,500 either.

---

I'm not sure where you get your information, but Glanford Park is seated on three sides, with terracing only in the popular home end (North Stand). They have plans to add a seated tier to this Stand, which would increase capacity further (over 10k mark?). And as Joey4Ireland notes, I hadn't thought TC's capacity to be as high as 9k.

As for crowds, Scunthorpe's home League crowds this season to date average 4,955. Should they maintain their Play-Off position, this will rise above the 5,000 mark for the whole season. How do Cork's crowds compare with that?

And if you're seeking another benchmark, these are the highest transfer fess paid by Scunthorpe:
Martin Paterson - £425,000 from Stoke City
Kevan Hurst - £200,000, from Sheffield United
Steve Torpey - £175,000, from Bristol City
David Mirfin - £125,000-£175,000 from Huddersfield Town
Martyn Woolford - £125,000, from York City
Billy Sharp - £100,000, from Sheffield United
Do Cork City pay* those sorts of fees, plus the wages which go with them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not seeking to denigrate the LOI, nor deny the progress it has made in recent years. However, some LOI fans appear to use that to assume an inflated sense of their League's standing vis-a-vis football in England/Scotland.

For if the LOI has come on in recent years, so have these other Leagues, often at a faster pace.


* - Using their own money, at any rate...;)

Even if Pele, Mardonna and Cyuff were playing in the League of Ireland today and were Irish citizens by birth they would still never be picked to play for Ireland.

The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.

Im of the opinion that Brian Murphy should be in the irish squad as back up to Given

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

No offence taken, so I hope you'll not take any offence when I state that I think you're barking if you seriously consider Cork, Bohs or Drogheda to be anything apporoaching the equal of Ipswich Town or Norwich City!
As for the other two teams, it's Dundee United of the SPL, not Dundee FC, whom Feeney plays for (though both can claim to be "bigger" in just about every respect than anything found in the Eircom).
As for Scunthorpe, granted they're not much of a team, though if you look at their stadium and crowds etc, they too exceed anything to be found in the Eircom:
http://www.scunthorpe-united.co.uk/p...,10442,00.html
In any case, League One only accounts for one player in the NI team, not the "many" to which I originally took exception.

P.S. As for your "Tale of what might have been" (Drogs in Europe), just Google "Ipswich Town", "Norwich City" and "Dundee United", along with "European football" and you'll see all three individually have records somewhat in excess of that of the entire Eircom League combined!

---

How big their stadia are and how many fans they get is irrelevant to the argument

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I'm not sure where you get your information, but Glanford Park is seated on three sides, with terracing only in the popular home end (North Stand). They have plans to add a seated tier to this Stand, which would increase capacity further (over 10k mark?). And as Joey4Ireland notes, I hadn't thought TC's capacity to be as high as 9k.

As for crowds, Scunthorpe's home League crowds this season to date average 4,955. Should they maintain their Play-Off position, this will rise above the 5,000 mark for the whole season. How do Cork's crowds compare with that?

And if you're seeking another benchmark, these are the highest transfer fess paid by Scunthorpe:
Martin Paterson - £425,000 from Stoke City
Kevan Hurst - £200,000, from Sheffield United
Steve Torpey - £175,000, from Bristol City
David Mirfin - £125,000-£175,000 from Huddersfield Town
Martyn Woolford - £125,000, from York City
Billy Sharp - £100,000, from Sheffield United
Do Cork City pay* those sorts of fees, plus the wages which go with them?

Don't get me wrong, I am not seeking to denigrate the LOI, nor deny the progress it has made in recent years. However, some LOI fans appear to use that to assume an inflated sense of their League's standing vis-a-vis football in England/Scotland.

For if the LOI has come on in recent years, so have these other Leagues, often at a faster pace.


* - Using their own money, at any rate...;)

---

i think perhaps it could be just as easily argued that an inflated sense of these lower english leagues standings leads to such inflated transfer fees and not the actual quality of the players themselves.
i dont think you can judge the standard of a player by the amount of money spent on him or the wages he commands...there are players at all levels of the game that wound seem to be impersonating footballers yet getting paid obscene amounts of money

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.

---

While you probably have a point in the sense that the Irish management more than likely doesn't give the league a fair go, your reference to the national team being a "British experience" is nonsense.

The vast majority of the Irish team was born & raised here but play their ball abroad as it is of a higher standard and they can garner a higher wage. Anyone would do the same in their position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gustavo

How big their stadia are and how many fans they get is irrelevant to the argument

---

Could not disagree more!

In any professional team sport, the best teams have the best players (it's why they're the best teams, after all)
And the best players ultimately go where the money is.
And how much money a club can generate to sign and retain those players is fundamentally based on how "big" they are, as reflected in the crowds they can attract.
And to attract decent crowds, clubs need decent facilities in which to stage their games.
Which fundamentally explains why the leading LOI players generally end up moving to GB, where even mediocre clubs like Reading FC can offer them a whole lot more than clubs in their home country.

And whilst this may be regrettable in many respects, it's the way of the world*

* - That is, not just Ireland, since the whole of the world's best players are increasingly being attracted to the same few footballing Leagues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

Even if Pele, Mardonna and Cyuff were playing in the League of Ireland today and were Irish citizens by birth they would still never be picked to play for Ireland.

---

Except that if Pele, Maradona and Cruyff were Irish citizens by birth, they wouldn't be playing in the LOI, to be ignored by Trapattoni & Co, in the first place! You can bet your bottom dollar that they'd be in England by the time they were 16 (if not earlier).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.

---

Of course you must be perfectly entitled to that opinion, but without meaning to patronise, I actually feel sorry for you.
For last week I watched NI beat Poland and Slovenia with a team made up entirely of GB-based players (though 10 of them born and raised in NI), and I couldn't have felt prouder.
And this has nothing to do with NI (technically, at least) being a "British" team, but everything to do with an appreciation that we could produce 11 players from our wee patch to do battle with, and beat, the best that two other bigger countries could produce.
Moreover, the fact that our players do not play for IL teams did not bother me one jot. For I fully accept their right to better themselves and provide for their families etc by moving across the water.
Indeed, it is precisely that desire to better themselves which, imo, accounts for their ability to "punch above their weight" when they come home to Windsor, since it gives them the pride, effort and self-respect which in the end made the difference against more talented opposition.
As for how my admiration of our GB-based players affects my view of their counterparts left in the IL, in the end I apply the same yardstick.
Namely, I would as happily pay my £9 to watch an IL game as I would e.g. my £25 to watch an English Championship game, so long as the team I was following at each was doing its best.
Indeed, that principle applies whether I am watching two pub teams in my local park on a Sunday morning, or the World Cup Final.

Excellent post EG.

[QUOTE= The reality is that the Ireland senior squad and it's supporters is a British experience. This is why I do not support them. They are no more "my" national team than England is.[/QUOTE]

This is perhaps a bit extreme, but I can sympathize to a degree. I started going to Ireland games in the early seventies. I missed one home game in fifteen years, until, due to the success of the team under Jack Charlton, it became more difficult to get tickets for the big, decisive games. However, I would still regularly attend until the latter days at Lansdowne Road. What has put me off in recent years?:
1. The realization that a large amount of the people going to see Ireland play were mostly fans of the Premiership - either barstoolers or people who made regular visits to Old Trafford or Anfield, but had never been to a game in their own country. Also - The 'Event Junkies". Traveling on the train in Paris en route to the Ireland v France game in 2004, I overheard a conversation between a group of Irish fans. They were discussing why they had selected to travel to this game. It had been a toss up between going to Paris, a Six Nations Rugby match, or an All Ireland GAA final. There was no way these people had ever set foot in Richmond Park or Tolka.
2. Fans in Celtic jerseys. An unwelcome development. Perhaps the last straw for me was at the Ireland v San Marino game a few years ago - the last home Ireland match I've attended. Singing along to 'The Fields of Athenry' - surely the dumbest song ever written - a group of Celtic jersey wearers in front of me inserted sectarian words 'Our love was on the wing SINN FEIN, we had dreams and songs to sing IRA' etc. This had, very unfortunately, become an increasingly popular chant at Lansdowne.
3. The move to Croke Park. With the GAA's history of sectarianism, bullying, bigotry, and firmly entrenched hostility to 'soccer', I was never going to feel at home there.
I shall more than likely go back to watching Ireland when they return to playing at the new Lansdowne Road, but I think I'll always feel more at home at LOI grounds. You get a more knowledgeable, committed, informed and passionate set of fans.
Should there be LOI players on the national team? I think this is not unrelated to Sepp Blatter's plans to have more home grown players in major club sides. It would mean there is some link between a national team and the national league of that country. I don't think there is any country in Europe where the discrepancy between National Team and National League is greater than Ireland. To have a rule whereby an international team should have at least one player from that team's national league seems to be not unreasonable. I think it would probably benefit football in this country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Could not disagree more!

In any professional team sport, the best teams have the best players (it's why they're the best teams, after all)
And the best players ultimately go where the money is.
And how much money a club can generate to sign and retain those players is fundamentally based on how "big" they are, as reflected in the crowds they can attract.
And to attract decent crowds, clubs need decent facilities in which to stage their games.
Which fundamentally explains why the leading LOI players generally end up moving to GB, where even mediocre clubs like Reading FC can offer them a whole lot more than clubs in their home country.

And whilst this may be regrettable in many respects, it's the way of the world*

* - That is, not just Ireland, since the whole of the world's best players are increasingly being attracted to the same few footballing Leagues.

---

So you're saying that the average attedance a player's club gets should be a concern when choosing if he is good enough for international football ? That's what we're discussing here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Straightstory

This is perhaps a bit extreme, but I can sympathize to a degree. I started going to Ireland games in the early seventies. I missed one home game in fifteen years, until, due to the success of the team under Jack Charlton, it became more difficult to get tickets for the big, decisive games. However, I would still regularly attend until the latter days at Lansdowne Road. What has put me off in recent years?:
1. The realization that a large amount of the people going to see Ireland play were mostly fans of the Premiership - either barstoolers or people who made regular visits to Old Trafford or Anfield, but had never been to a game in their own country. Also - The 'Event Junkies". Traveling on the train in Paris en route to the Ireland v France game in 2004, I overheard a conversation between a group of Irish fans. They were discussing why they had selected to travel to this game. It had been a toss up between going to Paris, a Six Nations Rugby match, or an All Ireland GAA final. There was no way these people had ever set foot in Richmond Park or Tolka.
2. Fans in Celtic jerseys. An unwelcome development. Perhaps the last straw for me was at the Ireland v San Marino game a few years ago - the last home Ireland match I've attended. Singing along to 'The Fields of Athenry' - surely the dumbest song ever written - a group of Celtic jersey wearers in front of me inserted sectarian words 'Our love was on the wing SINN FEIN, we had dreams and songs to sing IRA' etc. This had, very unfortunately, become an increasingly popular chant at Lansdowne.
3. The move to Croke Park. With the GAA's history of sectarianism, bullying, bigotry, and firmly entrenched hostility to 'soccer', I was never going to feel at home there.
I shall more than likely go back to watching Ireland when they return to playing at the new Lansdowne Road, but I think I'll always feel more at home at LOI grounds. You get a more knowledgeable, committed, informed and passionate set of fans.
Should there be LOI players on the national team? I think this is not unrelated to Sepp Blatter's plans to have more home grown players in major club sides. It would mean there is some link between a national team and the national league of that country. I don't think there is any country in Europe where the discrepancy between National Team and National League is greater than Ireland. To have a rule whereby an international team should have at least one player from that team's national league seems to be not unreasonable. I think it would probably benefit football in this country.

---

V.Interesting post, Straightstory. To take your points in order:
1. Barstoolers. We NI fans haven't really had to worry about this in recent years, formerly because the barstoolers weren't interested in us when we were crap(!) and latterly because with capacity at Windsor progressively reduced to just under 15k and the block booking system, genuinely committed fans have a stranglehold on tickets.
Which imo is the main reason why the atmosphere at WP is absolutely fantastic at times. Here is what one visitor to WP said last week:
George Craig, Managing Director of Falkirk Football Club, was a special guest of the IFA Community Relations Department at Windsor Park for Northern Ireland’s impressive win over Slovenia and he claims Northern Ireland Fans are the best he has seen.
George said, “The Northern Ireland Fans did not stop singing. The noise and atmosphere created was incredible. That was the best atmosphere I have ever witnessed in British or Irish Football. You can see why these Fans are respected throughout world football”.
I know that some have complained that the capacity for the new Lansdowne is too low at 50k, but if that keeps out an extra 10-20k barstoolers, in the long run the improved atmosphere may help the team more than the missing gate receipts?

2. Celtic jerseys/FOA etc. Interesting, if saddening account. I hope people will forgive me in noting that if the Rangers equivalent were still happening at WP, we'd never hear the end about "Loyalist bigotry" etc. Oh well.
Anyhow, we used to have a similar problem with Rangers/Linfield fans in Red, White and Blue etc, with accompanying "party" tunes, but that has all but been eradicated (hopefully never to return).
Quite honestly, the overwhelming reason for this transformation was that the fans themselves took on the problem, initiating a "Sea of Green" campaign, which has been remarkably effective. Indeed, I'd say there are a few hardline Loyalists in Belfast for whom the only (fenian) green item in their entire wardrobe is an NI top! :D (And they know that if they ever tried to revive "The Sash" etc on the Kop, it would soon be drowned out by a chant of "Green and White Army"!)
http://www.seaofgreen.org.uk/pictures.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e45-j...aynext_from=PL

3. Croke Park. Obviously we have no equivalent experience in NI, but the importance of feeling "at home" should never be underestimated. Which is one of the reasons why the Maze Stadium - soulless, ill-designed, badly located etc - was never going to work. And it is also why although I still want a new, purpose-built football stadium in Belfast for NI, a part of me still hankers after a redesigned and enlarged Windsor - despite all its baggage and inherent inadequacies.
I'd guess the return to Lansdowne will do you a power of good, which you may not appreciate until it happens.

4. LOI players. I see your point, but I'd say that a FIFA Rule insisting that there be a minimum number of "Players who appear to give a Fcuk about representing their Country" would do international football a damned sight more good than a minimum number from the respective domestic leagues! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gustavo

So you're saying that the average attedance a player's club gets should be a concern when choosing if he is good enough for international football ? That's what we're discussing here

---

No, that's not what I'm saying. :rolleyes:

Obviously there may be individual exceptions, but in the end, the best teams are the ones with the best players. And the best players tend to end up at the clubs which pay them the best wages. And the clubs who can afford to pay the best wages are generally those who have the best support.
Which basically explains why the best LOI players invariably end up going to GB, even as low as League One, rather than the other way round.
Which is why, if I were in Trapp's shoes, I would need a very compelling reason to look towards the LOI when picking players for the senior ROI team.

P.S. When he took over NI, Nigel Worthington (who started his career at Ballymena Utd, btw), was keen to try out IL players, but has since thought better of it. Granted, the IL may not be up to the standard of the LOI (though the Setanta Cup would suggest Linfield and Glentoran, and their players, are near enough the mark). Then again, NW doesn't have the same number and calibre of GB-based players to choose from as Trap, either.