Bulgaria : what is our best team if available?

-------------Given---------
Foley---Dunne---O'Shea--Kilbane

McGeady---Whelan---Andrews--Hunt

--------Keane---Folan-----

Doyle is a better player than Folan, but Folan complements Keane better.

We need to get Foley or a fit Stephen Kelly at right back, and get McShane back on the bench as centre-half cover. He CANNOT play fullback, and O'Shea and Dunne are our best centre-halves, so he must go no further than the bench.

Hunt doesn't deserve to be dropped, and Duff isn't very effective on the right, so I'd go with McGeady there.

Still a huge Duff fan obviously but maybe just bringing him on for the last 30 minutes or so would be the best option, especially if he's not fully match fit depending on how he finishes the season fitness wise.

Still not convinced about central midfield, but there is no obvious alternative to Whelan-Andrews.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

McShane made no "mistake" for that goal. He did what most players would do in that situation. Letting Koller get a shot away isn't a mistake. That's to be expected in a 1 on 1. Anyway, McShane has had plenty of man of the match performances against tall, slow players. He put a motm performance against Berbatov on his premiership debut last season afair.


Would Berbatov not know O'Shea's weaknesses too? I like what I've seen of Foley but I think it's probably too tough a match to be putting him in. I suppose we could use the friendly to play him in first though. O'Shea and Dunne have done very well together but so have McShane and Dunne for the most part.

And let's face it. McShane is going to play since Finnan is out.

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In fairness Eirebhoy Sir Phillip of Babb could have a MotM performance against Berbatov. Berbatov is brilliant at times but when he's in a stinky, sulky mood any centre half could look like they're doing the business.

And McShane was rubbish for the Koller goal. He's like a headless chicken at centre-half, he's a liabilty on the pitch and ought to be replaced.

And no being a headless chicken doesn't make him like Carles Puyol. Only similarity is their barber

I want McShane nowhere near the team, and certainly not at fullback danonion, but he wasn't at fault for the goal we conceded against the Czechs.

O'Shea is the principal one at fault for exposing McShane by turning his back to the free kick.

Once one on one with Koller, McShane did all he could do by pushing Koller out wide, and Henderson, who was in a poor position as well, didn't help our cause.

I would place most of the blame on O'Shea, some on Henderson, and little if any on McShane.

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Originally Posted by danonion

In fairness Eirebhoy Sir Phillip of Babb could have a MotM performance against Berbatov. Berbatov is brilliant at times but when he's in a stinky, sulky mood any centre half could look like they're doing the business.

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There's also Kevin Davies, Santa Cruz and Viduka that I remember McShane putting in top performances against. I like to make my excuses for McShane but from what I know he's been brilliant against these type of players. He was also brilliant in his last start for us at centre half against a completely different styled team in Colombia.

Again though, mention poor premiership centre halves and Titus Bramble is top of many people's lists. If people only looked passed the mistakes to see how good a player Bramble is.

Phil Babb was a very solid player beside a really good player. McShane is a very dominant player beside a really good player. I think he has more than made up for his errors so far for us at centre half with his performances.

he was horrific against Serbia all night and cost us a goal.

McShane is a squad player - at best. A proven liability on the pitch.

steven reid has a return date of june 09 up on physio room , hopefully he will be up for consideration, and no way should we be splitting up dunne and o'shea to accomodate mcshane, get a real full back into that right full position but not o'shea and not mcshane

That would be a June date return to training for S Reid, not ready for a first match in June. The playing season is over for him.

In Sofia there will be no place for the faint hearted in the team, McShane is not feint hearted. The nag I have with him is that he is usually there or thereabouts at the scene of the crime.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

There's also Kevin Davies, Santa Cruz and Viduka that I remember McShane putting in top performances against. I like to make my excuses for McShane but from what I know he's been brilliant against these type of players. He was also brilliant in his last start for us at centre half against a completely different styled team in Colombia.

Again though, mention poor premiership centre halves and Titus Bramble is top of many people's lists. If people only looked passed the mistakes to see how good a player Bramble is.

Phil Babb was a very solid player beside a really good player. McShane is a very dominant player beside a really good player. I think he has more than made up for his errors so far for us at centre half with his performances.

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Neither Viduka (maybe at Boro or Leeds) nor Davies really convince me of much. Santa Cruz would be a feat but I don't remember any such performances (feel free to share a link)

Bramble is and was a different type of player than McShane. McShane always looks like he's on the verge of doing something really daft because he doesn't really have any positional sense and doesn't read the game at all.

Bramble was a pretty physically impressive and intelligent centre-half. He made stupid mistakes playing the ball out of defence or not taking the simple option when dealing with a loose ball. He has mostly cut that out from his game under Steve Bruce (stands to reason) and is generally considered by people who actually see him play for Wigan a quality player/

McShane doesn't have little problems you can fix, he's just not good enough.

If people overlooked my mistakes and general averageness and focused only on the rare occasion I played very well I'd have been held in much higher regard!

How can you say "look past Bramble's mistakes"? It's because he's error prone that he's not held in high regard. Sure he plays well sometimes.

Also, I agree that McShane wasn't to blame for Koller. O'Shea lost concentration. McShane failed to get a block but that happens for 90% of all goals, and Henderson reacted badly.

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Originally Posted by danonion

Santa Cruz would be a feat but I don't remember any such performances (feel free to share a link)

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tbh I'm only going on reports and internet forums at the time. It was a non-televised midweek game so got little coverage. He was chosen as motm on the premierleague fantasy football and the only shot Blackburn got on target in the 90 minutes was McCarthy's peno.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

How can you say "look past Bramble's mistakes"? It's because he's error prone that he's not held in high regard. Sure he plays well sometimes.

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McShane has partnered Dunne 8 or 9 times for Ireland and I think the Serbia goal was the only one he was at fault for in that time out of the 5 goals they've conceded. He's error prone but if he's going to be the cause of a goal in every 3 games then I think he'll certainly be making up for that with his all round dominance in that position.

I'd much rather than that Stephen McManus who hardly ever makes a serious mistake but can still concede 3 or 4.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

There's also Kevin Davies, Santa Cruz and Viduka that I remember McShane putting in top performances against. I like to make my excuses for McShane but from what I know he's been brilliant against these type of players. He was also brilliant in his last start for us at centre half against a completely different styled team in Colombia.

Again though, mention poor premiership centre halves and Titus Bramble is top of many people's lists. If people only looked passed the mistakes to see how good a player Bramble is.

Phil Babb was a very solid player beside a really good player. McShane is a very dominant player beside a really good player. I think he has more than made up for his errors so far for us at centre half with his performances.

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I'm with you on this... Is there a possibility we could get a button that just says "Agreed" on the threads and the submitter will appear under the post. Much like the "Thanks" button.. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

he was horrific against Serbia all night and cost us a goal.

McShane is a squad player - at best. A proven liability on the pitch.

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Correct - its why he cant get a game of football.

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Originally Posted by irishfan86

-------------Given---------
Foley---Dunne---O'Shea--Kilbane

McGeady---Whelan---Andrews--Hunt

--------Keane---Folan-----

Doyle is a better player than Folan, but Folan complements Keane better.

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forget about complementing keane - doyle is the hardest working player we have. i would nearly go as far to say he has been our best performer in the group. his work rate is tireless - exactly what we need away to bulgaria and his goal record in qualifiers is impressive in its own right.

as for talk of dropping hunt (not by irishfan 86) - did you see the match on wednesday? a constant thorn in the side, menancing runs at defenders and bar a great save from buffon would have scored one of the best best goals in memory in the first half. I have said it before and i'll say it again Mcgeady for all his getting into good positions and beating players cannot cross the ball. he has potential (if he moves from celtic) and could turn out to be valuable in the future - but it cant hide his present deficiencies.

What about

Given

O Shea Mc Shane Dunne

Hunt Andrews Gibson Kilbane/Duff

Keane

Doyle Folan



Just a conversation piece.

i would seriously agree with you Neil - thought we looked dangerous when we went for broke late on wednesday. will definitely provoke debate - cant see trap going for it though.

Trap will pick this team to start against Bulgaria injuries permitting
Given
O'Shea McShane Dunne Kilbane
McGeady/Hunt Andrews Gibson Duff/Hunt
Doyle Keane

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Originally Posted by Saint Tom

forget about complementing keane - doyle is the hardest working player we have. i would nearly go as far to say he has been our best performer in the group. his work rate is tireless - exactly what we need away to bulgaria and his goal record in qualifiers is impressive in its own right.

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I don't know who expends the most energy in a game.
Over the 2 games, from a fitness point point of view, Robbie was at his peak.
Doyle looked off his pace in the 2nd half in Italy, for whatever reason - fitness?
The hungry look with absolute concentration on Keane's face as the he struck his goal when he should have been gasping for air, said it all.
I think irishfan 86's point was if you are going to play Folan and one of Keane or Doyle, then Keane would be the choice. A horse for that course.

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as for talk of dropping hunt (not by irishfan 86) - did you see the match on wednesday? a constant thorn in the side, menancing runs at defenders and bar a great save from buffon would have scored one of the best best goals in memory in the first half. I have said it before and i'll say it again Mcgeady for all his getting into good positions and beating players cannot cross the ball. he has potential (if he moves from celtic) and could turn out to be valuable in the future - but it cant hide his present deficiencies

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Do you think that Hunt can repeat that performance in the next game?

We don't need 2 wingers in Sofia unless one of them want to do the 'Keane role'.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I don't know who expends the most energy in a game.
Over the 2 games, from a fitness point point of view, Robbie was at his peak.
Doyle looked off his pace in the 2nd half in Italy, for whatever reason - fitness?
The hungry look with absolute concentration on Keane's face as the he struck his goal when he should have been gasping for air, said it all.
I think irishfan 86's point was if you are going to play Folan and one of Keane or Doyle, then Keane would be the choice. A horse for that course.

Do you think that Hunt can repeat that performance in the next game?

We don't need 2 wingers in Sofia unless one of them want to do the 'Keane role'.

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certainly do think he can - he is very dangerous went let loose

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Originally Posted by geysir

We don't need 2 wingers in Sofia unless one of them want to do the 'Keane role'.

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I agree. Who would you pick though?

Interesting to hear mention of "horses for courses". I look forward to the day where we start with a team with a particular job in mind, with game changing options on the bench. If this means one or more of McGeady, Duff, Hunt or even Doyle starting from the bench so be it.

In my opinion a fresh Doyle would have buried that late chance against Bulgaria but the Doyle who covered every blade of grass with no support from midfield could only manage a tired jump & header.

Is Kevin Doyle our new John Aldridge.