Third level education no longer a fee

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Originally Posted by John83

I assume you're in favour of fees for primary schools so?

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Every heard of "voluntary contributions" plus you have to pay for books. No element of our education is free as it is...

3rd level education should be paid for through general taxation. If the argument is that some professions earn a lot of money on the basis of the education, then you tax them at such a level as to provide for the next generation coming through.

If this Government hadn't eroded the direct taxation base so much, this wouldn't be an issue. Similarly if they weren't providing so many tax shelters for the rich, O'Keefe's notion of millionaires getting away with paying nothing towards the education of their children wouldn't be true either.

I was thinking about this when I went home last night, and I think I've been less than clear, probably because I didn't have the argument coherently in my head.

The discussion I have seen seems to be between one side which says that the government should not (implicitly ever) fund third level, and another side that says that they should fund it. Bald Student correctly pointed out that the real issue is whether it is reasonable to reduce or suspend funding for third level give the current financial situation, and I'm much more amenable to this.

Macy, people are already taxed based on how much they earn. The education provided at third level increases the total income and therefore the total tax revenue in the country. It does this in a progressive way. Taxing graduates just means that wealthy people will pay for private education (here or abroad) and the children of lower and middle class folks will pay more over their lifetime for no reason. That, or we tax all graduates regardless of how and where they were trained, which makes engineers and scientists even more expensive here and screws us in terms of international competitiveness.

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Originally Posted by John83

Macy, people are already taxed based on how much they earn. The education provided at third level increases the total income and therefore the total tax revenue in the country. It does this in a progressive way. Taxing graduates just means that wealthy people will pay for private education (here or abroad) and the children of lower and middle class folks will pay more over their lifetime for no reason. That, or we tax all graduates regardless of how and where they were trained, which makes engineers and scientists even more expensive here and screws us in terms of international competitiveness.

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I probably wasn't clear - my point was that it should be through the standard general taxation, rather than any additional graduate tax. If the argument is that graduates earn more, if we had a progressive system then they would pay more anyway without a specific additional tax. The problem is we don't have a progressive system - the rich still avoid paying their fair share (a further example this morning is a Green appointee to the Dublin Docklands Authority), facilitated by the Government.

One of the reasons that fee's were scrapped in the first place was that if you had a good enough accountant you could avoid them. No surprise this Government wants to reintroduce them, and the burden will again fall on PAYE workers. Similarly, I'm sure those that avoid tax at the moment will get their accountant to get Tristan and Trudy off the graduate tax hook if that was the policy.

One crucial thing is there anyway to introduce a system where PAYE do not get screwed in comparision to a person who owns their own business and is making money. Does anybody know about other countries that have a PAYE system that does not result in the PAYE worker getting screwed in comparison to the self employed person. Not saying all self employed do this and I do know there i huge stress in owning your own business

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

One crucial thing is there anyway to introduce a system where PAYE do not get screwed in comparision to a person who owns their own business and is making money. Does anybody know about other countries that have a PAYE system that does not result in the PAYE worker getting screwed in comparison to the self employed person. Not saying all self employed do this and I do know there i huge stress in owning your own business

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leave your paye job. borrow shed loads of money you cant afford. take the risk. enjoy benefits if any that come your way.;)

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

leave your paye job. borrow shed loads of money you cant afford. take the risk. enjoy benefits if any that come your way.;)

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Exactly. I sometimes wonder what planet Irish politicians are on when they talk about low Capital Gains taxes. If someone is willing to invest their own money & create jobs then they should be rewarded. Increasing taxes such CGT in a recession would be idiotic.

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Originally Posted by pete

I sometimes wonder what planet Irish politicians are on when they talk about low Capital Gains taxes.

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Isn't it zero Capital Gains, if you have the right accountant? Sure avoid it, and still get appointed to several Government positions...

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Originally Posted by Macy

Isn't it zero Capital Gains, if you have the right accountant? Sure avoid it, and still get appointed to several Government positions...

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Thats only for the corrupt FF party! Oh wait...

It was mentioned the other night on Q&A that some one coming out of college will end up paying 70% more tax than some one that didn’t go. An average of course but pretty much ends all arguments for bringing back fee's for 3rd level.

To expect an 18 year old to take out a loan that could easily hit 60 grand + for a 4 year course and to think that will not cause a drop off in figures is mental.

Im in my 9th year of working since i left college and im just about breaking even now having a mini mortgage would have crippled me, and would have meant i wouldn’t get a car loan or mortgage both pretty much essential in this country. a 60K mortgage would mean you end up paying back prob 90K thats 500 euro a month for the first 15 years of working !!

I have neither a car or a car loan or a house or a mortgage and I get by pretty fine. Lets get back to essentials. Too many people felt that having a car and owning a home were essentials. Well they are not.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I have neither a car or a car loan or a house or a mortgage and I get by pretty fine. Lets get back to essentials. Too many people felt that having a car and owning a home were essentials. Well they are not.

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Whatever about a house but in many many places having a car is essential simply to get to work. If we had a half decent public transport system it might be a different story but we don't

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Originally Posted by micls

Whatever about a house but in many many places having a car is essential simply to get to work. If we had a half decent public transport system it might be a different story but we don't

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Back in the '50s, when there was training with Kerry Mick O'Connell used to leave his home on Valentia Island, hop in his little boat and row across the choppy strait to the mainland. He'd then undertake a 40-mile car journey on terrible roads, train for a few hours, drive back to the quay, and then row back to the island.

Our sense of what is essential has become tainted by luxuries.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

He'd then undertake a 40-mile car journey on terrible roads

Our sense of what is essential has become tainted by luxuries.

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So you agree with me? Even he needed a car....

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

Back in the '50s, when there was training with Kerry Mick O'Connell used to leave his home on Valentia Island, hop in his little boat and row across the choppy strait to the mainland. He'd then undertake a 40-mile car journey on terrible roads, train for a few hours, drive back to the quay, and then row back to the island.

Our sense of what is essential has become tainted by luxuries.

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Back in 50,000BC, when his island ran out of food, Ug abandoned his home, swam across a rough strait in his weakened, starving condition. He then hiked for miles over rough, forrested terrain, hunted wild animals using only sticks and rocks for tools and built a new home with his bare hands.

Our sense of what is essential has become tainted by luxuries.

No, wait, the other thing. We've come to expect a certain standard of living as our society has progressed to support it.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

To expect an 18 year old to take out a loan that could easily hit 60 grand + for a 4 year course and to think that will not cause a drop off in figures is mental.

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How do you come with 15k fees a year? It is not so long ago that fees were charged & they were no more than 2k. I have heard before that when you charge fees the standard of education improves as students concerned about the standard they receive.

The argument that someone who earns more pays more tax is a valid one it doesn't match with all the calls for tax increases for the higher paid in the next budget.

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Originally Posted by John83

No, wait, the other thing. We've come to expect a certain standard of living as our society has progressed to support it.

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And over the last couple of years, that development was based on false money.

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Originally Posted by micls

So you agree with me? Even he needed a car....

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No, he didn't need a car, but he used one alright. ;)
That probably confused things I suppose, sorry. It wasn't about the car really, more the rowing part and his commitment to arriving at his destination. He undertook the journey by whatever affordable means. For example, he didn't buy a motorised boat.
I sympathise with anyone who has to travel long distances to work, and of course cars are needed by some, but for the vast majority of people cars aren't truly essential. If you can afford one and want one fire away though.

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Originally Posted by John83

We've come to expect a certain standard of living as our society has progressed to support it.

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I get your point John, I think, but in the context of Neil's and my post I don't see how it's appropriate.
The broad moral is spot on alright: we're reactive to our context. Our demands and expectations are shaped by what is or isn't available. But while you seem to think that's a good thing (I presume anyway given the tone of your response to my post :)), I think it is a terribly bad thing: it is an illusion that leads to false expectations on the part of individuals - a 'disease' that blights our personal-debt-ridden nation in particular.

The crucial classification that needs to be made to your truism (and what I think is Neil's and my general point), is that you must think of how YOU have progressed too, not just how broader society has progressed. So why take out a loan for a car or a house if it's overly burdensome? -just because society has progressed to the stage where most people have cars? That might entitle you to the expectation that you should own a car, but legitimising that expectation is entirely down to your progress, not society's.

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Originally Posted by pete

How do you come with 15k fees a year? It is not so long ago that fees were charged & they were no more than 2k. I have heard before that when you charge fees the standard of education improves as students concerned about the standard they receive.

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I personally think that's just a way of trying to justify it. I went through the UK system before fees, but with very low levels of grants. I can tell you, amongst my peers even that did influence choice of University/ College, choice of course and for some whether they even went to 3rd level at all. That has been multiplied several times since the introduction of fee's.

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Originally Posted by pete

The argument that someone who earns more pays more tax is a valid one it doesn't match with all the calls for tax increases for the higher paid in the next budget.

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It is a valid one, because people earning more paying more is based on a progressive tax system, which we don't have. Not a system where the rich can avoid paying through Government sanctioned tax shelters.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

Back in the '50s, when there was training with Kerry Mick O'Connell used to leave his home on Valentia Island, hop in his little boat and row across the choppy strait to the mainland. He'd then undertake a 40-mile car journey on terrible roads, train for a few hours, drive back to the quay, and then row back to the island.

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Milking it even then - a car! A pony and trap obviously below him. Still, I suppose still less flaithiulacht than him bombing around in a helicopter like in recent years...

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I have neither a car or a car loan or a house or a mortgage and I get by pretty fine. Lets get back to essentials. Too many people felt that having a car and owning a home were essentials. Well they are not.

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Im guessing you live in Dublin with the Luas, the Dart, Dublin bus along with a host of private operators in which case a car is far from an essential. But if you live outside of Dublin you have none of these.If you live in a smaller city you only have access to a terrible bus service. If you live in the country side your on your own. So to a large % in the country a car is very essential.

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Originally Posted by pete

How do you come with 15k fees a year? It is not so long ago that fees were charged & they were no more than 2k. I have heard before that when you charge fees the standard of education improves as students concerned about the standard they receive.

The argument that someone who earns more pays more tax is a valid one it doesn't match with all the calls for tax increases for the higher paid in the next budget.

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The registration fee this year will be close to 2 grand alone and you have to pay for Rent, Bills, food, books etc etc. ( a room in a student apartment near UL is 80 euro a week !! add 20 to that for bills then another 50 for food etc just a very quick sum shows 40 weeks at 150 is 6 grand so thats 8 grand and we still havent paid the college fees if they come in at 3-5 grand then its well over 10 grand a year ) and thats the bare minimun.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

The registration fee this year will be close to 2 grand alone and you have to pay for Rent, Bills, food, books etc etc. ( a room in a student apartment near UL is 80 euro a week !! add 20 to that for bills then another 50 for food etc just a very quick sum shows 40 weeks at 150 is 6 grand so thats 8 grand and we still havent paid the college fees if they come in at 3-5 grand then its well over 10 grand a year ) and thats the bare minimun.

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You still have to pay for food & rent whether fees are charged or not.