Liverpool

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Well, Rafa has got quite a similar points total to what Wenger did when he first arrived at Arsenal, yet he won the league in 97/98. The difference is though, that the title is far harder to win now. The average points it takes to win the English league over the last 5 seasons is 90.4. That's a massive total. The timing of Rafa's arrival in England certainly hasn't helped him.

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I don't really buy into that though to be honest. The reason the points totals have got higher is because the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs has got bigger. If Liverpool are to be seen as one of these big clubs then they must beat these points totals, simple as that. If anything the league has got easier to win because u can accululate a huge points total by just beating the teams u should be beating on pretty much perfect pitches around the country unlike before.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

I don't really buy into that though to be honest. The reason the points totals have got higher is because the gap between the big clubs and the smaller clubs has got bigger. If Liverpool are to be seen as one of these big clubs then they must beat these points totals, simple as that. If anything the league has got easier to win because u can accululate a huge points total by just beating the teams u should be beating on pretty much perfect pitches around the country unlike before.

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Fair enough. I disagree, but it's difficult to prove it one way or the other. However, Liverpool finished on 60 points the season before he arrived. They weren't really established in the big four and had they made the wrong move, they wouldn't have done so. Rafa has now, pretty much, firmly established them in it. They generally qualify for the Champions League with relative ease.

Newcastle were their closest challenges back when Rafa arrived. JHad they not got the right manager in they could potentially have ended up as a better version of Newcastle, yet they didn't and managed to keep pace with the rest of the top four (not all of them, but they generally finish above, or close to at least one of them).

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Chelsea finished on 80 points

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You love your points total arguments but things change from season to season. The clubs have to meet the standards that are set. If a club is relegated on 40 pts it will be no consolation to them that that would have kept them up the year before.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

You love your points total arguments but things change from season to season. The clubs have to meet the standards that are set. If a club is relegated on 40 pts it will be no consolation to them that that would have kept them up the year before.

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Of course things change. But points show improvement in my opinion. If you get 20 points and stay up and the following season you get 40 points but go down, it's improvement. It just means that others have improved too. Chelsea finishing on 80 points at least shows that they weren't that far off a potential title. Mourinho was hardly taking over a bad team. The season before he arrived, they finished ahead of United. By the time he left, they were behind United.

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Of course things change. But points show improvement in my opinion. If you get 20 points and stay up and the following season you get 40 points but go down, it's improvement. It just means that others have improved too. Chelsea finishing on 80 points at least shows that they weren't that far off a potential title. Mourinho was hardly taking over a bad team. The season before he arrived, they finished ahead of United. By the time he left, they were behind United.

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Ya I wasn't really disagreeing with you in relation to the United Chelsea side of things I just don't think points totals are particularly useful when judging a teams progress. League positions are all that matters. Benitez is judged by who close he gets Liverpool to United and Chelsea/or whoever. If United get 60 pts and Liverpool win the lge with 61 then he has done well. If United get 95 and Liverpool get 80 then it's poor cos u have to ask where did those 15/16 points go missing if United were able to amount that total.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Ya I wasn't really disagreeing with you in relation to the United Chelsea side of things I just don't think points totals are particularly useful when judging a teams progress. League positions are all that matters. Benitez is judged by who close he gets Liverpool to United and Chelsea/or whoever. If United get 60 pts and Liverpool win the lge with 61 then he has done well. If United get 95 and Liverpool get 80 then it's poor cos u have to ask where did those 15/16 points go missing if United were able to amount that total.

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Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think extra points represents progress and is a better indicator of how a team will do in future. For example, if you finish 2nd but 30 points off the leaders, you're less likely to be able to progress than someone who finishes 4th but 5 points off the leaders. Also, there's not much you can do if a team wins the league with 100 points, only to keep on improving. If you get 50 points, then 60, then 70, and then 80 I'd think that constitutes massive progress, irrespective of where you finish.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and just say we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think extra points represents progress and is a better indicator of how a team will do in future. For example, if you finish 2nd but 30 points off the leaders, you're less likely to be able to progress than someone who finishes 4th but 5 points off the leaders. Also, there's not much you can do if a team wins the league with 100 points, only to keep on improving. If you get 50 points, then 60, then 70, and then 80 I'd think that constitutes massive progress, irrespective of where you finish.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and just say we'll have to agree to disagree.

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I love the way you start and finish your point with we'll agree to disagree and in between give a big example on why you think you're right!!;)

I agree with the agree to disagree bit though about the relevance of points.

Bottom line Liverpool not good enough, haven't improved enough and aren't in a position to improve much more with the players they have atm.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

I love the way you start and finish your point with we'll agree to disagree and in between give a big example on why you think you're right!!;)

I agree with the agree to disagree bit though about the relevance of points.

Bottom line Liverpool not good enough, haven't improved enough and aren't in a position to improve much more with the players they have atm.

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Fair enough.

However....

(just kidding) :p

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Originally Posted by reder

Everton is the club to join in the North West if you are a young up and coming footballer.

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I wouldn't say that, United have players coming through, and even if they don't make it there they usually go on to play at a high level. city, for the time being at least have people coming through.

It's laughable him blaming torres injuries though - if only they had a proven premier league striker to fall back on.

Bottom line though is that football has moved on from when the Anfield Machine was capable of grinding out league titles - they'd need the back pass rule rescinded.

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Originally Posted by old git

Sell: Dossena, Kuyt, Ngog, Lucas(All to Bolton)... even bolton would not sign these 4 :D:D

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I think Lucas has the ability to be a top class player , Unfortunately I think he left South America a bit too early , still expect him to come good

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Originally Posted by gustavo

I think Lucas has the ability to be a top class player , Unfortunately I think he left South America a bit too early , still expect him to come good

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Is this a joke:confused: I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just saying that on the evidence of what has been seen so far there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he has the ability to be anything other than second rate. And tbh I haven't even seen evidence that he might make the step up to second rate so u can discard that.

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Originally Posted by gustavo

I think Lucas has the ability to be a top class player , Unfortunately I think he left South America a bit too early , still expect him to come good

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Plus, Dossena has started to play better in recent months. He's been decent since around December. He hasn't been fantastic, but pretty good overall since then. The problem is that most of the good crosses he gets into the box are wasted as Liverpool don't attack in great enough numbers.

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Plus, Dossena has started to play better in recent months. He's been decent since around December. He hasn't been fantastic, but pretty good overall since then. The problem is that most of the good crosses he gets into the box are wasted as Liverpool don't attack in great enough numbers.

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Ah now I know that's a joke:pgood one though

What's next lads, El Zhar man of the match at the Riverside?

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Ah now I know that's a joke:pgood one though

What's next lads, El Zhar man of the match at the Riverside?

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The only particularly poor game he's had since then was Hull. He's getting better, but whether it's still good enough is questionable.

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

The only particularly poor game he's had since then was Hull. He's getting better, but whether it's still good enough is questionable.

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Hull was particularly brutal alright. He made your man Mendy look like Messi that day!!!

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Is this a joke:confused: I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just saying that on the evidence of what has been seen so far there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he has the ability to be anything other than second rate. And tbh I haven't even seen evidence that he might make the step up to second rate so u can discard that.

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I'm just saying I believe he has the ability , I think he's at the wrong club at the wrong time

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Originally Posted by gustavo

I'm just saying I believe he has the ability , I think he's at the wrong club at the wrong time

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So are the other 32 players :D :D.
Bottom line is Liverpool will finish 3rd and they won't win the champions league. They are no closer to United than they were when Houllier was in charge.
Lucas I do think will end up being a good player maybe in Spain or Italy but not in England.

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Originally Posted by gustavo

I'm just saying I believe he has the ability , I think he's at the wrong club at the wrong time

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I dont think he is up to the grade but you do have a point in relation to players at LFC as a whole.

I think the likes of Babel arent in the right environment to grow and develope as players. I have absolutely no doubt that if Babel went to the likes of Arsenal he would be a far better player than he is now. He tried to move to Ajax at xmas so he could play football but Rafa blocked it.

I find it amazing that no one has questioned, in the media etc, why all these strikers have come to the club over the past 5 seasons and failed. Kuyt had a brilliant record in the dutch league and struggles badly to get goals in the PL under Rafa. I dont expect him to bang in 20+ goals but there is something seriously wrong if a player goes from scoring 20+ and 29 in Dirk's case to single figures. Robbie Keane is a proven 20+ goals a PL season striker and we all know what happened there when he was on the field.

Also, this whole signing players business. I said it before and i'll say it again, its too easy to blame Parry for the mess. He was/is useless but Rafa signed those players. If he did get the likes of Alves etc, what difference is it gonna make? No fullback under Rafa is allowed to "bomb on" in his current system, so he will just be another negative defender.

Also, the pro-Rafa front will bang on about signing players who distinctly said they have no interest in playing for the club. Alves for example clearly started that he does not want to play in England. Also, the Vidic fax story is rubbish.

Whatever you may think about Liverpool's title challenge and recent results , were very Lucky to be sitting in second position. We've won games where we should have drawn lucky to get all 3 points last night and right now i'd back Liverpool to beat us again .
Last night v Portsmouth we rode our luck , yes we had chances first half but they were a better side for lage parts of the game . The results paper over the cracks .

4-1 fact!!!!!!