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Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah
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Why?..Quote:
Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah
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Originally Posted by D24Saint
UEFA are trialling safe standing areas i fully expect standing to be allowed in Europe within a couple of years...although contrary to what most people think safe standing doesnt increase capacity.
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Originally Posted by belfastman
£7m-ish was given at some point.
Maybe even this year, along with capacity, media, etc. requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Safe standing can increase capacity of an area, but would require retrofitting exisitng seating areas for it to happen.
Seats weren’t in great knickQuote:
Originally Posted by outspoken
It can, it just depends what setup you're using. A purpose built terrace up to modern safety standards would generally hold more people than an equivalent sized seated stand. If it's a seated area converted to rail seating/terracing, in most cases, it seems clubs are keeping the same capacity. Most of the standing areas at top clubs in England seem to have the same capacity as an equivalently sized seated area.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
It doesn't look like it will add capacity in Sligo though, unless they're planning on doing additional work and adding rows - which I doubt given the proposed redevelopment. I like the Showgrounds but that stand and the seats in it are in a bad way.
I saw this posted somewhere, not sure if it's been posted on foot.ie yet: https://www.independent.ie/regionals...030152820.html
In England, you can only install standing instead of seating on a strict 1:1 basis. They also require that if in operation for home fans, away fans must also be provided with standing too. I suspect that these are both influenced by post-Hillsborough concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohsmug
In Germany, however, the ratio of standing to sitting can be up to 1.8:1.
Either way, it's not just a question of how many people you could physically cram in standing in a given space, H&S requires that there be adequate access and egress in an emergency - turnstiles, exits, walkways, steps, concourses etc.
A bit of a sickner too see an Taiseach giving 50 million to Casement Park. At the end of the day this is money going into another state, unfortunately but be that as it may. But more of a sickner is that it is investment into the already well resourced Gaa.
The laughable bit about the 50 million allocation was that it was toward enabling works, which is basically a start and he was 'hopefull' of the Uk coming on board soon.
Imagine what 50 million would do if invested in the new Finn Harps stadium, The Showgronds and Weaver Park. It would be a game changer to football facilites in this country.
LOI fans need to be on to their TDs about this. Particularly the TDs from coalition parties. The obvious question being why are they funding sport in a different state in preference to football/soccer in their own jurisdiction?Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
There's council and European elections in the next couple of months, so use the heightened political sensitivity that creates to send a message to your TDs.
Funding a GAA stadium in Belfast is probably more politically advantageous than giving anything to the LOI,that’s just the way things are in this country…..
My thoughts also. Give 20 clubs 2.5 million each to improve facilities. Not necessarily to increase attendances but to make the experience a better one for those who do go to games. If a club can increase attendances and improve facilities all the better. To give the money to the wealthiest sporting organisation in the country who are only providing 15 million of the funding is outrageous. If the GAA had put in several million each year over the years it wouldn't have been in the state it descended to.Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
The pressure on the state to assist with facilities does seem to have more weight attached to it these days though. I know we need to see real action in this regard and I may just be living in the LOI echo chamber but there's a flicker of light there. SDCC's commitment to Tallaght has hopefully paved the way for more successful public funding. Who knows... but I hope :confused:
Maybe. But the other side to being able to use capital investment for political gains is to provide the money into the cross border/ peace fund. Finn Harps, Sligo Rovers in this state and Derry, Ballinamallard, Newry up North are located in border counties. All would be rubber stamped for cross border initiatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
Provide these clubs and communites with infrastrutural upgrades would see far more political gain that giving it to the Gah imho.
Are any FF, FG or Green voters really going to be that positive about a load of money given to a stadium in Belfast? At best I'd say they probably don't care. Though ones I know are starting to ask questions about it (especially when it's raised with them). €50m would build you more than 200 social housing apartments for a start (minus the land cost. But sure the State is sitting on a load of that). And that's before we get onto the LOI, and people like Damien Duff saying in the media that the money should have gone to domestic footbal/soccer instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
Since when was Sligo a border county? :D It's about as near to the border as North Meath is.Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
Allocating €50 million to fund a stadium in another jurisdiction, for a football tournament co hosted by a separate “country”, which post Euros will be then used by an organisation who generally don’t allow other games to be played in their stadia, has to be the most Irish solution to an Irish problem ever.
Not for me to determine how you should react in your jurisdiction over your money (obv), but yeah, it must stick in the craw.Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
While it's all part of another buggers' muddle on this side of the border, as follows:
When the £140m+ Maze Stadium (for GAA/IFA/IRFU shared use) collapsed under the weight of its own idiocy (the Finance Dept at Stormont accepted that it could never pay its way as originally promised), the money was reallocated to the three bodies thus:
1. IRFU to get £20m (I think) to rebuild Ravenhill;
2. GAA to get £62m to rebuild Casement, with £15m of their own = £77m;
3. Football to get equal funding to GAA, from which the IFA allocated £26m to rebuild Windsor, and when the 3 main projects were completed, the remaining £36m to go to "Sub-Regional" stadia (i.e. Irish League and Derry City etc).
Both IRFU and IFA rebuilt their stadia within budget, while the GAA screwed up right from the very start (design, Planning Permission, H&S, local opposition etc). This mixture of incompetence and vanity etc, along with Stormont getting suspended by both SF and DUP walkouts, meant that 15 years after it was promised, the IFA still hasn't seen its £36m second tranche received.
Meanwhile, the GAA is complaining that construction inflation means that the original £77m is now inadequate, so they are playing the poor mouth and demanding that somebody else must bale them out. That is, no way they'll increase their own £15m, naturally, nor any chance they'll scale back their plans to suit their budget. Regarding this latter, they originally demanded 40k capacity, since reduced to 32k as the maximum to receive PP, yet their own prospectus envisaged one, yes, one 32k sell-out GAA game per year, the Ulster Football Final. (Antrim currently play their county games at the 4k Corrigan Park, btw).
All of which means that if Football and Rugby don't at least get an equivalent increase to their £36m/£20m, then they will effectively be being punished for their own competence, while the GAA gets rewarded for its own incompetence.
But hey ho, we might see 4 or 5 garrison games between the likes of Romania and Czechia at the Euro's in 2028, which will make it all ok.
While schools, hospitals and roads etc can hang on another while for a few quid, since they're well used to waiting by now...:mad:
There is an irony in this that Louth GAA are having a sh1t show with funding of our county ground. There is no shortage of messing going on, most likely impacting on phased funding and progress but an outright grant that pays for a project from start to finish would eliminate a lot of the messing. I dont like Louth GAA or indeed the GAA, as organisations with certain eccentricities eg bigotry, elitism and protectionism but yet Id want to see taxpayers from this country benefit from funding from the national purse. The A5 funding is different in that there is a need to traverse another state to improve conectivity of the North West to the rest of the country. With Casement I dont see value for money to the Irish taxpayer, giving money to a well funded organisation that could more than make their own way on such a project (when did old fashioned bank loans for capital projects become a no go for GAA). I think there is greater political capital earning potential in NI and RoI, that could be mutually beneficial, than Casement....maybe setting some foundations for an All Island football league that is likely less contentious than driving GAA expansion?!Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
Er, when they lost over €30m on SuperValu Pairc Uí Chaoimh and interest rates quadrupled?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Well at least Cork GAA wont have to go through Hibernian/Celtic/City/Foras phases to cope with losses! Casement, Louth County Ground, maybe SVPUC look like they're straight out of the Stranrolar playbook...
As an aside, its an expensive way to bolster unifiction credentials for the current government parties in what is very likely to be a general election year and prevent Shinners from making that contribution in future or calling for evidence of a commitment to the future possibility of a border poll and what could happen after. Or am I looking far too deep in to the reasoning.
€10 or even 20 mil with a guarantee of matched funding from London, considering the joint Euro bid, a GAA contribution of index linked original proportion of funding would be more palatable - a lot of the issue is with, as EG outlined, the way GAA messing fallout is being covered finacially. When Louth GAA approached Croke Park about the inflationary pressures on the budget of the new GAA stadium in Dundalk they all but pulled the plug, are having the project recosted and have asked others for more (IIIP was beautifully exploited by the former county chair and local TD (Genune question, did Harps look at this element of potential funding? Dundalk FC should have beeon on that gravy train also!!). The county board has lodged €1.6mil with GAA HQ as their contribution (groundworks done and materials are all on site) yet Croke Park just isnt willing to get things moving again with some central funding. I should have added hypocrisy above as an eccentricity of the organisation! My rant over...
https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/sta...95627916103987
Said it here before, the best avenue I can see for funding for new facilities is through the betting tax, either from increasing it, or enough public pressure is built against Greyhound racing that football takes it funding.
It makes perfect sense to be honest.
20 million a year is half a new stadium, a full stadium in two years at 40 million. Money shouldn't even need to be earmarked for LOI clubs, but local councils for sport facilities.
i think it was Charlie McCreevy while Minister for Finance that cut betting tax to a pittance 2002 or so, a man who liked quite a flutter himself. His argument was to fund and develop the racing industry. Job done I would say. Now increase tax, not by 1% but by multiples of the current rate. People talk about the damage gambling does to society, there is a furore over gambling sponsorship especially of sports clubs or events, bookies shops have to be toned down wth minimal shop front 'attractions', much like smoking products and alcohol (cute how a drinks sponsorship can stay exactly as it was if you add 0.0 at the end). So why not tax this scourge, like others, to disincentivise people gambling and use revenue generated to bemefit society, foster safe, healthy activity that contributes to improved mind health, reduce associated gender based violence - things like sporting amenities, community hubs like modern football stadia etc.
If problem gambling is as widespread a people think then surely the powers that be would be open to suggestions to mitigate the problematic element. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander surely, average of 10% on a pint and 9% on tobacco + vat, why exempt betting?
Online betting apps are the real problem in this area and generate most growth in revenue, for as long as there are hooks to get people to sign up like yer €10 free bets, where U18s can easily access apps, that there is proper validation of age and identity across the board and that problem gambling is identified and flagged then any levy should be punitive!
Imagine the difference in the town of Dundalk as a whole if the money that went into the racing stadium went into a new football stadium or Oriel Park. The racing stadium is nearly always empty and is not really part of the social fabric of the town and adds nothing to its identity. If it disappeared tomorrow, very few would notice it.
The football club is by far the best advertisement of the town of Dundalk, bringing in international recognition of a pretty obscure town in the grand sense of things (like how else would anybody hear about a town like Dundalk), yet the conservative nature (as in lack of dynamisms) of our local governance ideas just refuses to build upon these opportunities.
.... rant over..
I dont make the rules :D tbf parts of Sligo are 15 minutes tothe border. I blame Leitrim, getting in the way. Probably wont matter, it might be gone soon! the border I mean, not Leitrim. We seem to be stuck with Leitrim :D : DQuote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
It's a ground for Ulster GAA, so it's certainly arguable that some money from Dublin should go into it. Worth pointing out that it'll ultimately be an asset of by a Dublin-based organisation, and as it's expected to last 40-50 years, it'll likely be within the state during its lifespan.Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
Besides, this is the cheaper option. If Casement wasn't being done, it would likely be Clones, with the state bearing most of the cost, with no northern/UK govt input.
No point having a go at the GAA (or any other sporting organisation). They're great at getting funding, and we, the FAI/football fans generally, need to get better at it.
As I see it, the GAA is better at getting (Irish) government sports funding than other organisations, incl football, for political reasons, not sporting ones. Which hardly seems right to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Of course ordinarily this is none of my business, since they're not my government and it's not my taxes which are being used in this manner, therefore should they decide eg to shove €50m towards Casement, then that's up to them.
But if that €50m is being used to get over the line a project which additionally needs an inequitable, unfair and unjustifiable subsidy from UK taxes (see my post #7,937, above), then it does concern me.
P.S. This ridiculous delay over Casement has been a prime factor in NI Football's £36m Sub-Regional Stadium funding being delayed for over a decade, a portion of which was thought to have been earmarked for the Brandywell. Has there been much comment about that up the town, or has it not registered before now?
Funding is allocated by politicans, so makes sense to create political reasons for funding. The GAA has excellent branding, miles about any other sport in the country. As pointed out on the BTS podcast, look at GAA sponsors and their eagerness to shout about their sponsorship. Supervalu, AIB, etc. We don't see that with Airtricity, nor Sports Direct.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It is being used for that. Presume the GAA lobbied for it, and Dublin got the SoS to agree to increase UK govt funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Everyone is well aware of it, the club and council have been on about this for ages. Again though, the GAA probably have had a hand in how this is occurred. The Casement money tied to the sub-regional stadium fund with the SF DfC minister, which creates more political pressure, and gives you a bit of cover in case of increased costs. The GAA then get their ground included in the Euros bid, and so get an assurance from Dublin/London about extra cash and a hard date for completion of construction. Now it’s a DUP DfC minister getting pressure to release the stadium fund money, so he’ll have to acquiesce and sort Casement out too.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
So the GAA have gone on a journey from merely being a tenant of a publicly-owned ground at the Maze, to owning a lovely new 34.5k capacity ground for a spend of £15m, which they have in cash. Mightn't like it, but they've played a blinder.
Compare and contrast with the FAI, who don't own Lansdowne, but are still €50m in debt following its redevelopement.
Funding is political, so football needs to step up.
*mind you, after another ****show at the Oireachtas today, the FAI's political capital is close to non-existant.
Government funding is open to all. Look at the clubs across the country who get 100,000 for various schemes. They prepare the submission and have the backing funding in place and usually get most of the funding required. I don't know what the rules are in relation to ownership of grounds are. But a good case and the funding to bridge the gap are vita,
What's the answer then?
Looking at the success of the German fans recently ... Should LOI fans start to organize to advocate for more public sporting facilities?
Yeah exactly, GAA and Rugby get disproportionately more funding as they usually own their own grounds. Most football clubs don't unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stav
Tbh after seein the shambles of our FAI reps in front of the DAIL committee today I wouldnt ave confidence in them stepping up to the mark in sortin out the bad image. Some of these excuses are laughable to say the least!
But thats just it, you're making a case for why it is okay to put money into a Gaa ground ... it should never come to this, its a football competition the have agreed to host. It should be an opportunity to invest in football now and its legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
I didnt have a go at the Gah. Its the process and political gains that are to be questioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
What not have lobbied for exeptions of Windsor and select fixtures that may have less appeal. Casement will hardly be massce itself or particularly ideal with pitch dimensons, all seater stadia dont suit the average GAA ground and fan. The unseen investment to be at UEFA requiements is a significantly higher bar than GAA would require. There will be a lot of money spent on criteria that will be riped out after. Design in a changable pitch/extendable seating and insist that it is multiuse. Im sure the GAA would just be very happy to have Casement sorted so relax their stance on shared facilities. Rugby and football could move games to the bigger ground when here s addtonal demand....
Usually to qualify for funding you must have a lease of 25 yrs or more. Otherwise there's no point in giving the money. So hence self owned grounds are favoured for funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
Re. the design, simple fact is, that for a variety of reasons, the GAA itself has little need for a stadium of the proposed size and specification in Belfast, otherwise they wouldn't have let Casement decline to the outdated state it had become by 2005.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Quite simply, they saw a windfall on offer from the Government and thought "Free Hit", let's go ahead and build it, even if it will prove to be a White Elephant - as their own Schedule of Events demonstrated (one projected 32k capacity match per annum).
Not so. The only way the GAA will accept non-GAA use is if it is either sport which doesn't compete with their own code (eg boxing) or non-sporting (eg concerts). When it comes to competing sports (effectively Football and Rugby), they only accept that in exceptional circumstances (eg AVIVA closed so Croke used for rugby, or no Euro's Football stadium in NI), and then only under pressure - and being paid handsomely for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
No harm, but that simply doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
As regards Football, there is no way the IFA would, or should, move games to Casement, full stop. And this is not a political stance, rather it is because they already own Windsor, so the rent paid to Casement would swallow up much (most?) of the extra capacity availaible - only a few thousand when you allow for segregation, and deduct any standing capacity which the GAA may reinstate after the Euro's.
And that's if you can attract extra NI fans. For one thing, fans are creatures of habit (travel, parking, pubs, stadium places etc), so it can prove hard to shake them out if it. For another, GAA pitches are far too big for football, with the seats too far from the action. And finally, many NI fans have no more desire to trek out to Andytown than the good people of Andytown have to receive them. In short, it's someone elses home, with "home" (as opposed to "away") being the operative term.
While Ulster Rugby has even less need or desire for Casement: on the very rare occasion when they need something bigger than Ravenhill, then they're happy to decamp to the AVIVA, it's a great day/weekend out and the IRFU gets to keep all the proceeds, VAT-free.
I think the FAI needs to get its house in order and be "professional" and stop hopping from disaster to disaster. The clubs across all the leagues are the FAI and its about time they grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and demand proper governance. A number of years ago the IRFU suggested they were going to sell tickets online rather than through the clubs. Some clubs signed a motion calling for an EGM of the IRFU. The idea was quickly dropped. There's no point in letting the present position continue. A chief executive who lives in England, a throwaway remark that was acted upon, a fully redacted email presented to an Oireachtas committee and they wonder why they are seen as a joke by most of the country.
i think that most people are reality happy to support any Irish team in international competition but this continuing drip-feeding of information that a junior infant wouldn't engage in sucks support from soccer, if you were a TD or Senator on that committee what would you think. The game and the people who play, support and drive it deserve better.
You can imagine the IFA will allow NI games to be played during the Euros, but after that they will revert back to their own ground Windsor.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
There are no train stations near to casement and no parking you can imagine 20,000 NI fans walking up the Andy town road singing NI and loyalist songs. The locals will go ballistic, claiming its an infringement on their human rights etc or they will react and the political debate will start again.
You're chatting as if Casement is in a different world from Windsor. What are they, 2.5km from each other? Casement has a rail station 1km away, and the Boucher Road parking is still available for there. Maybe it's different for Belfast people, but as a Derry person who lived across the rail line from Windsor, both grounds are basically in the same area, defined by Boucher Road.
Maybe, in the future, we could see NI/Ulster rugby matches being played there. Who knows? The GAA are a lot more open to renting their grounds out these days, for an appropriate fee.
If you want a sensible review of where we're at with Casement, The View on BBC last night (and on iPlayer) is worth a watch. Basically, it's happening, it just needs to get construction started this year. The whole thing is a bit of a charade debate to pressure the SoS into topping up the funds, and to save the DUP some face with their voters.
The whole saga is this place in microcosm.
Somebody didn't like the maze idea, throw the toys out. Somebody didn't like east belfast suggestion throw the toys out. Instead of working together everyone does their own thing.
So rugby gets what they need, and probably sold themselves short.
Football get top table fixed up, bit extra to cover the feck up, and promises on the long finger (that are worth feck all) for those below that need it.
The gaa ask for the moon on a stick - lets be honest it always was akin to bohs asking for dalymount to be 40K all seater. They could have been pragmatic and done what ifa did, and and got 6 modern 20K+ stadia, am sure more than 1 of them could have been expanded to 30K+ by now.
It's getting on for 20 years, or is it more, since the original proposals. If they could have worked together could have a shared 40-50K seater now, and in time since had funding to do up their own smaller venues.
The gaa need their stadium/money, but casement is a white elephant. And it amuses me more than it should that the gaa's vanity project seems now to be relying on funding as part of a british tory government's vanity project.
The figures bandied about are pie in the sky, but 2-3 times the original cost doesn't seem too out there. So up to a 100M shortfall after dublin, stormont and gaa monies.
I was going to say I wouldn't expect this sos to meet that shortfall. But just seen something about sub-regional stadium pot now needing to increase to 100M+ to cover cost increases. So yeah as b_e says, shenagians. Waiting on new costings to be anouncend, sos agrees to meet most of the shortfall possibly adds to sub reginal pot as legacy, stormont and gaa find bit more down back of sofa. Or were sitting here in two years feck all having happened, cos of our politicians.
Speaking of the sub-regional funding, the Brandywell pitch review is ongoing.
As things stand, it's fine for this year, and probably for 2025 as well. The council will consider their options, with "income not a deciding factor". Interesting line that, as the council take in £80k a year off that pitch.
Reading between the lines, they seem to be leaning towards a hybrid pitch. You can get more wear out of it than a standard grass pitch. A sprinkler system was specifically mentioned too, so hopefully no more need for a lad with a power hose and a wheelie bin full of water.