Stephen Ireland

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06/02/2014, 9:29 PM
TheOneWhoKnocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Aye. Gun to Trap's head. And Stephen Ireland probably said he was ready to come back, repeatedly, but that Italian moron just didn't understand. Poor Stephen, the wee dote.

Anyone who makes any case any manager (ever) should go cap in hand to a disinterested, petulant and unwilling individual, who has barely mustered a run of first-team football in three years, is Kool-Aid powered. Positing the argument as about creativity vs tactics (ie Trap didn't trust him) is hardly credible since Stevie showed about as much interest in playing for us over the last few years as Andy Goram.

If Ireland wanted to play, he knew where the phone was. If he wants to play now, quit the foreplay and knuckle down.

He was Aston Villa supporters' Player of the Season in 2011/2012. Short memory? And as for the 2012/2013 season, ask Darren Bent, Alan Hutton, Shay Given, Enda Stevens and Barry Bannan about Paul Lambert's unique take on managing players. In the here and now, he has been good for Stoke. More goals (and probably assists) in half a season than Glenn Whelan has in over four years. More goals (4 in 6) for Ireland than Whelan in over 50 games. I just find the laissez-faire attitude about Ireland coming back a bit strange when we keep questioning where the goals and creativity are going to come from.

As for everything else you said, yeah Ireland is a self-indulgent muppet who is lacking in grey matter, but he was barely out of his 20's, a parent to two young children, his wife had a miscarriage and accusations of bullying within the squad were confirmed with an appearance by the equally gormless Stephen Hunt on The Saturday Night Show. I just find the lack of sympathy towards him quite galling really.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Ireland being eccentric does not give Trapattoni carte blanche to behave boorishly when he is/was paid extremely handsomely to make decisions for the best of the National Team and not his personal pride.

No way in hell Ireland would have got anywhere near the team, just like Reid and Hoolahan.

Begs the question, why then was there a meeting between the two parties to begin with?
06/02/2014, 9:41 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crosby87

That's in bad taste. I won't stand for it. Neither will Peepee.

That would be a first for you, Crosby. :)
07/02/2014, 1:13 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I just find the laissez-faire attitude about Ireland coming back a bit strange when we keep questioning where the goals and creativity are going to come from.

It's an appropriate response to someone who has shown as little interest in playing for Ireland and is probably peppered with a sense of maintaining integrity and self-respect. Football fans can lose the run of themselves and all sense of human reality at times whenever players are concerned - as if these players are puppets living in a virtual bubble, duty-bound to satisfy our general pleasure and entertainment needs - but if he doesn't wish to play, so be it. I won't be on my knees begging, nor will I be frothing at the mouth with indignation, whatever his decision.

Quote:

As for everything else you said, yeah Ireland is a self-indulgent muppet who is lacking in grey matter, but he was barely out of his 20's, a parent to two young children, his wife had a miscarriage and accusations of bullying within the squad were confirmed with an appearance by the equally gormless Stephen Hunt on The Saturday Night Show. I just find the lack of sympathy towards him quite galling really.

Agreed. Over the years, I've softened to possess a degree of sympathy for Ireland and would like to think it's indicative of my own maturing. Formerly, I may have thought he owed me (as a supporter) an apology or something childish and boorish like that. He's human, like anyone else, however, and has human frailties, just like anyone else. Who are we to get on our high horses when we know next to nothing about what's really going through the lad's head?

Quote:

Begs the question, why then was there a meeting between the two parties to begin with?

Set him right, Stutts. :p
07/02/2014, 8:04 AM
dr_peepee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crosby87

Somewhere Dr Peepee is smiling.

Stop speaking like I've passed away!!:)
07/02/2014, 8:30 AM
pineapple stu

No more appropriate post for a Stephen Ireland thread!
07/02/2014, 9:46 AM
DeLorean
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

He was Aston Villa supporters' Player of the Season in 2011/2012.

Hang on a minute, when did you start paying heed to these kind of accolades?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Derby are where they are in spite of [Keogh] and not because of him.

Well I have been at Pride Park enough to ascertain that he is not good enough to step up to International football and that would be the consensus of most Derby fans.

He also played every minute of every game for Coventry when they got relegated to League One! [2011-12]

Richard Keogh

Personal Honours

Bristol City
- Young Player of The Year: 2006�07
Carlisle United
- Player of The Year: 2009�10
Coventry City
- Player of The Year: 2010�11, 2011�12
- Players' Player of The Year: 2011�12
Derby County
- Player of The Year: 2012�13
- Players' Player of The Year: 2012�13
- Supporters' Player of The Year: 2012�13
07/02/2014, 10:30 AM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Begs the question, why then was there a meeting between the two parties to begin with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Pay attention!
07/02/2014, 11:26 AM
TheOneWhoKnocks
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean

Hang on a minute, when did you start paying heed to these kind of accolades?

Richard Keogh

Personal Honours

Bristol City

Young Player of The Year: 2006–07

Carlisle United

Player of The Year: 2009–10

Coventry City

Player of The Year: 2010–11, 2011–12
Players' Player of The Year: 2011–12

Derby County

Player of The Year: 2012–13
Players' Player of The Year: 2012–13
Supporters' Player of The Year: 2012–13
I'm just judging Richard Keogh with my own eyes. He did not look like a Premiership or International caliber football any time I have seen him, even on TV. Bristol City and Carlisle aside, Coventry were the worst team in the Championship when he won that accolade so it doesn't really mean much. Two of his Irish teammates alone, David Bell and Stephen O'Halloran are now playing in non league for King's Lynn and Stockport.

Damien Delaney is playing well and keeping clean sheets every week in the Premier League, as are O'Shea and Clark. McShane has looked good whenever he has played this season. Marc Wilson is a fifth player playing CB in the League this season. Paddy McCarthy has come back from injury and made the 25 for Palace with Delaney. Shane Duffy is a realistic option for the future. Richard Dunne is not retiring yet. Alex Pearce is a better player.

No disrespect to Keogh but I don't see why he should get a place in the squad. We are not that short of options.

I apologise for saying it was "the consensus of most fans" if that bothers you so much but every Derby fan on the forum I visited was saying he needs to be replaced. He is playing better, like everyone else, under McClaren. And now the fans are fickle.

As for Ireland, he's a Premier League footballer who won supporters Player of the Year just over one full season ago even though he was supposedly "not playing". I don't know how a comment I made about a journeyman defender a month ago is relevant to my case for Ireland.
07/02/2014, 12:04 PM
Deckydee

1 Attachment(s)

This is how I feel now....

Attachment 2043
07/02/2014, 12:07 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I apologise for saying it was "the consensus of most fans" if that bothers you so much but every Derby fan on the forum I visited was saying he needs to be replaced. He is playing better, like everyone else, under McClaren. And now the fans are fickle.

Yeah the general consensus bit, along with the "in spite of him" bit were the parts I had the main issues with. The fans voted him player of the season pre-McClaren so I don't know how you can call them fickle towards him. Surely a mass vote has more substance than a few comments on a forum. You never did say what brings you to Derby games? Top secret?
07/02/2014, 4:01 PM
DeLorean

You can just say you'd prefer not to answer you know... save me the suspense.
07/02/2014, 4:15 PM
Stuttgart88

I can't wait either. I think he picks and chooses which questions he answers. I'm still waiting on whether he thought the Doyle penalty not given and Andrews goal ruled out against Georgia were unlucky.
07/02/2014, 7:50 PM
SwanVsDalton

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

He was Aston Villa supporters' Player of the Season in 2011/2012. Short memory? And as for the 2012/2013 season, ask Darren Bent, Alan Hutton, Shay Given, Enda Stevens and Barry Bannan about Paul Lambert's unique take on managing players. In the here and now, he has been good for Stoke. More goals (and probably assists) in half a season than Glenn Whelan has in over four years. More goals (4 in 6) for Ireland than Whelan in over 50 games. I just find the laissez-faire attitude about Ireland coming back a bit strange when we keep questioning where the goals and creativity are going to come from.

Sorry but this passage turned my stomach a bit.

Stephen Ireland's only run of first team games came under Alex McLeish, the most dismal manager who oversaw the most dismaying Villa season since Jo Venglos. Even worse than Graham Taylor v.2. Not exactly a vote for Stevie if I'm honest.

But McLeish is supposed to be a better judge than Lambert - and just look at that list you have to prove it. Bent (lazy and expensive), Hutton (a tube and thuggish), Given (regrettably past it), Stevens (not up to it) and Bannan (ditto). Is this really the argument you want to be making?

Meanwhile Ireland was voted player of the season, in a season when there was a groundswell of support for the award to go to the catering company who made the half-time Balti Pies. He got it arbitrarily because he was the only 'creative' player in a team - the same arbitrariness that says we'd be better off begging him to come back than developing players who actually want to play for us. The award proves nothing (as DeLorean pointed out, Richard Keogh?).

Not fussed on getting into the rest of your response, just doesn't seem Friday night friendly. I will say I'm not unsympathetic to Stephen Ireland, I just don't care about him. Two kids? Young? Big deal, we're talking about a footballer, not a charity case.

He's big enough and old enough to make his own decisions and that's what he's been doing so far ie deciding not to play for his country. That's his call but his call only. And I call shenanigans on any attempt to put some Trap spin on it.
07/02/2014, 7:56 PM
BonnieShels

A wonderful post SvD and pretty much sums up the 150-odd pages since his exile. Can we now banish any talks of him playing for us until he is called up. Thanks. That'd be just grand.
07/02/2014, 8:15 PM
TheOneWhoKnocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Sorry but this passage turned my stomach a bit.

Stephen Ireland's only run of first team games came under Alex McLeish, the most dismal manager who oversaw the most dismaying Villa season since Jo Venglos. Even worse than Graham Taylor v.2. Not exactly a vote for Stevie if I'm honest.

But McLeish is supposed to be a better judge than Lambert - and just look at that list you have to prove it. Bent (lazy and expensive), Hutton (a tube and thuggish), Given (regrettably past it), Stevens (not up to it) and Bannan (ditto). Is this really the argument you want to be making?

Meanwhile Ireland was voted player of the season, in a season when there was a groundswell of support for the award to go to the catering company who made the half-time Balti Pies. He got it arbitrarily because he was the only 'creative' player in a team - the same arbitrariness that says we'd be better off begging him to come back than developing players who actually want to play for us. The award proves nothing (as DeLorean pointed out, Richard Keogh?).

Not fussed on getting into the rest of your response, just doesn't seem Friday night friendly. I will say I'm not unsympathetic to Stephen Ireland, I'm just don't care about him. Two kids? Young? Big deal, we're talking about a footballer, not a charity case.

He's big enough and old enough to make his own decisions and that's what he's been doing so far ie deciding not to play for his country. That's his call but his call only. And I call shenanigans on any attempt to put some Trap spin on it.

Alex McLeish is a proven Premier League manager and for all the vitriol aimed in his direction, Villa are no better off under Lambert.

Bent, Hutton and Given are all proven Premier League players. Fans and Premier League managers operate under the assumption that Bannan is too, as he is highly rated by Palace fans and had a move to another PL team fall through on Deadline Day. Stevens didn't shame himself when he got a brief run in the team. He didn't play again after conceding a penalty against Southampton (that shouldn't have been given to begin with).

I was merely replying to someone saying that Ireland has barely played over three seasons when half a season is more like it but you can spin winning Supporters' Player of the Season any way you want. It's not an accolade Keith "Jazz Hands" Andrews or Glenn Whelan are ever in danger of winning.

He's not a charity case but he deserved/s empathy and not mockery and vitriol.

He's receptive to coming back and reports indicate that he will be selected for the Serbia game. As I said previously, if he turns that down I would accept whatever course of action the new management take.

I'm not putting a Trap spin on it.

He had a meeting with Trapattoni and Tardelli and instead of encouraging him to come back, we got the same blase, ham-fisted attempts at player management that was endemic throughout two thirds of the Trapattoni era. Just like the borderline libellous comments made about Stephen Kelly, the career damaging comments made about Steven Reid, the treatment of Kevin Foley, the near fistfight with Andy Reid...

Two wrongs don't make a right. Ireland may be self-indulged but he isn't paid a salary to play for Ireland. Trapattoni was paid a ridiculous salary to manage the team and manage players properly and he didn't do it and he got a free pass for the Ireland meeting because of people's preconceived preconceptions about Ireland.
07/02/2014, 11:11 PM
SwanVsDalton

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Alex McLeish is a proven Premier League manager and for all the vitriol aimed in his direction, Villa are no better off under Lambert.

Hey, look here - no. Anyone who watched much of them then and now would agree. Villa ain't great now, but they're light years ahead of the turgid McLeish year-of-horror.

As for the players Hutton is terrible, Bent is widely overrated and a passenger, Given was rightly dropped and kept out of the team by the much better Guzan. Bannan can be tidy but never performed for Villa, can't see him being more than bit part for any PL club. Stevens will never make it in the PL. I'm not convinced you've ever actually watched these guys, particularly since you've fallen back on 'Palace fans think that' and 'Villa fans voted for this'. Unfortunately I am a Villa fan so have seen far too much of them (the horror).

The rest of the Ireland stuff...I can't take no more I'm afraid.
07/02/2014, 11:48 PM
TheOneWhoKnocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Hey, look here - no. Anyone who watched much of them then and now would agree. Villa ain't great now, but they're light years ahead of the turgid McLeish year-of-horror.

As for the players Hutton is terrible, Bent is widely overrated and a passenger, Given was rightly dropped and kept out of the team by the much better Guzan. Bannan can be tidy but never performed for Villa, can't see him being more than bit part for any PL club. Stevens will never make it in the PL. I'm not convinced you've ever actually watched these guys, particularly since you've fallen back on 'Palace fans think that' and 'Villa fans voted for this'. Unfortunately I am a Villa fan so have seen far too much of them (the horror).

The rest of the Ireland stuff...I can't take no more I'm afraid.

Hutton is not a terrible player and it pains me to say that after what he did to Shane Long. He has played for big clubs like Rangers and Tottenham and has just had a hugely productive loan spell at Real Mallorca. Darren Bent has an average of a goal in every 2 and a half games for Villa and scored more than one in every two games for Sunderland before that. Capped by England 13 times too so passenger is a bit of an exaggeration. Bannan headhunted by several PL clubs when links with similarly profiled Irish players, sadly, rarely go beyond paper talk. A fully fit Given can still do a job for a PL team even if Guzan is better. Guzan was also given the benefit of the doubt several times, when in similar circumstances, Given was unceremoniously turfed out. Too early to judge Stevens on if he is up to the standard but you can't say he is out of his depth when he was thrown in in the deep end and performed admirably against Utd, City and Arsenal.

Good and bad with McLeish. Consolidated Premier League football for Villa. A couple of relegations along with a 9th placed finish and League Cup win for Birmingham. Hugely successful with Rangers. If you are judging him on the way he sets his teams out to play football then I dread to think of how you perceive Trapattoni and even Lambert.

As for Ireland, I can wait and see. We need to move forward with players like Reid, Hoolahan, Ireland and O'Kane. Less of the 4-4-2 and men-ta-li-ty.

I know it's tortuous for some people but one way or other we will know if Ireland is coming back by May or June at the latest and hopefully next month.
07/02/2014, 11:48 PM
CraftyToePoke

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Alex McLeish is a proven Premier League manager

Bit of a stretch there again TWOK.
07/02/2014, 11:50 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Alex McLeish is a proven Premier League manager and for all the vitriol aimed in his direction, Villa are no better off under Lambert.

McLeish managed to get Birmingham relegated in 2010/11 scoring less than a goal a game, and a year later Villa were no better than them under his reign. They managed to stay up despite finishing the season a point worse off than Birmingham in their relegation season and with the same scoring record - 37 goals in 38 games. Under Lambert, Villa were 5 points clear of relegation last season and scored 47 goals in 38 games. How exactly are they "no better off"

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Hutton is not a terrible player and it pains me to say that after what he did to Shane Long. He has played for big clubs like Rangers and Tottenham and has just had a hugely productive loan spell at Real Mallorca.

Mallorca were relegated last season, and won only 5 games of the 17 he played in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Too early to judge Stevens on if he is up to the standard but you can't say he is out of his depth when he was thrown in in the deep end and performed admirably against Utd, City and Arsenal.

Villa drew 0-0 with Arsenal, lost 3-2 to United and 5-0 to City in those games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Good and bad with McLeish. Consolidated Premier League football for Villa. A couple of relegations along with a 9th placed finish and League Cup win for Birmingham. Hugely successful with Rangers.

Consolidated is stretching it (see above). Success at Rangers (or Celtic for that matter) is almost immaterial. It's harder to not win something in Scotland when you're in charge of either of the Old Firm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

If you are judging him on the way he sets his teams out to play football then I dread to think of how you perceive Trapattoni and even Lambert.

That's how every manager, everywhere is judged.
07/02/2014, 11:50 PM
TheOneWhoKnocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Bit of a stretch there again TWOK.

9th placed finish with Birmingham sandwiched with two relegations. League Cup win over Arsenal. Helped Villa stay up. Jury is still out I suppose.

Just as much a PL manager as Mick McCarthy anyway.

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