Eligibility Rules, Okay

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Predator

Here's an idea: The football association of the north east of Ireland could accept the situation, shut up and get on with things. Is it possible that the IFA would face a significant political and social backlash as a result of the pursuit of what NB has described? You'd have to think so.

---

It would be to expose as a sham their recent taking of the mature and responsible approach wherein they finally acknowledged the legitimate identity of Irish nationals born north of the border and accepted to take matters into their own hands like adults by working with that socio-political reality and recognising the onus was on them to convince rather than coerce nationalists to take an interest in them. After Kearns and everything, it's an insult that there appear to be some within the IFA still thinking along these outmoded lines.

Edit: Which pursuit are you referring to, by the way? The declaration proposal or the possible lobbying to FIFA to have Irish nationality regarded as a shared nationality? I was referring to the latter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifk101

But by switching to Ireland, the player makes his honourable choice by seeking to represent the association true to his beliefs. By subsequently returning to the Northern Ireland FA fold after failing to make the grade, is the player not "dishonest" to himself? Should the player not continue to endeavour for the rest of his playing career to make the Ireland team, rather than falling back on the Northern Ireland FA who are not true to his beliefs?

---

I'll rather have a player who chased his dream with the south and failed, than a player who didn't chase his dream to represent the Football Association of the Republic Of Ireland until after he had represented the Irish Football Association at Under 19 and above.

I believe there is a difference between those players who make choices for fooballing reasons alone, and those who make choices based on "political" reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

How does one prove they're engaging in the malign or proscribed form of discrimination where the players' (non-)selections are based on something beyond just the abilities of the players concerned? Could NB's proposal be interpreted as engaging in this malign form of discrimination?

---

Good luck in proving "malign discrimination" against an Association that selects it's players based, as far as possible, on those expressing a desire to represent them at senior International level - and helps players who have ambitions elsewhere to realise them.

You'd be wasting your time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Predator

Here's an idea: The football association of the north east of Ireland could accept the situation, shut up and get on with things. Is it possible that the IFA would face a significant political and social backlash as a result of the pursuit of what NB has described? You'd have to think so.

---

A "significant political and social backlash" for having a selection policy centred on players with ambitions to represent the Association at senior International level, and that proactively assists players with ambitions of representing the south in realising their ambitions?

That's funny - I'd welcome that "backlash".:D

Some of you seem to be unable to accept that the IFA can select who they want, providing they are not in breach of FIFA Statutes in doing so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

It would be to expose as a sham their recent taking of the mature and responsible approach wherein they finally acknowledged the legitimate identity of Irish nationals born north of the border and accepted to take matters into their own hands like adults by working with that socio-political reality and recognising the onus was on them to convince rather than coerce nationalists to take an interest in them.

---

My proposal fully recognises "the legitimate identity of" Republic Of Ireland "nationals born north of the border".

It allows for the IFA having scope to persuade nationalists to take an interest in them, and would dispel any coercion.

In fact, my proposals involve the IFA actively assisting Nationalists born in Northern Ireland to realise their international footballing ambitions upon reaching adulthood - and wishing them well - whilst leaving a return door open.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Predator

You doubt the possibility or you doubt that there will be political/social backlash against the IFA? I think it's possible.

---

Both, specifically the latter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Some of you seem to be unable to accept that the IFA can select who they want, providing they are not in breach of FIFA Statutes in doing so.

---

Like who exactly...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I believe there is a difference between those players who make choices for fooballing reasons alone, and those who make choices based on "political" reasons.

---

You prefer them to make them for what you perceive as "political" reasons (like George, presumably) rather than for what you perceive to be footballing reasons (like Bruce, presumably)?

Quote:

---

Good luck in proving "malign discrimination" against an Association that selects it's players based, as far as possible, on those expressing a desire to represent them at senior International level - and helps players who have ambitions elsewhere to realise them.

You'd be wasting your time.

---

I'm not saying it would fall under any of the proscribed forms of discrimination. Even if I was able to prove your proposal as amounting to malign discrimination, I wouldn't bother wasting the time as I have no issue with it in the first place. Personally, I still think your proposal would work, anti-discrimination statutes or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

My proposal fully recognises "the legitimate identity of" Republic Of Ireland "nationals born north of the border".

It allows for the IFA having scope to persuade nationalists to take an interest in them, and would dispel any coercion.

In fact, my proposals involve the IFA actively assisting Nationalists born in Northern Ireland to realise their international footballing ambitions upon reaching adulthood - and wishing them well - whilst leaving a return door open.

---

Don't have any problem with that. Might have been my misunderstanding, sorry; I thought Predator was referring to your mentioning of figures within the IFA considering lobbying FIFA to regard Irish nationality as a shared nationality. I know that's not something you advocate. Your personal declaration proposal is fine, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Edit: Which pursuit are you referring to, by the way? The declaration proposal or the possible lobbying to FIFA to have Irish nationality regarded as a shared nationality? I was referring to the latter.

---

I was referring to the former.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

You prefer them to make them for what you perceive as "political" reasons (like George, presumably) rather than for what you perceive to be footballing reasons (like Bruce, presumably)?

---

I'd simply want the IFA to select and develop players from Under 19 and above who have a desire to represent the Association at Senior International level - whether that be for footballing and/or political reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I thought Predator was referring to your mentioning of figures within the IFA considering lobbying FIFA to regard Irish nationality as a shared nationality.

---

As I said, that is just a whisper I heard recently - could be some substance to it, could be idle talk.

I'll hopefully get a detailed and balanced insight into current IFA strategy on the issue when I'm in the Ukraine at the end of next month.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Edit: Which pursuit are you referring to, by the way? The declaration proposal or the possible lobbying to FIFA to have Irish nationality regarded as a shared nationality? I was referring to the latter.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Fly

I was referring to the former.

---

Forgive my lack of clarity. I was referring to the latter.
That said, I'm still undecided on the former.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I'll hopefully get a detailed and balanced insight into current IFA strategy on the issue when I'm in the Ukraine at the end of next month.

---

its Ukraine. no "the".
in the interests of respecting nationality and all that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I'd simply want the IFA to select and develop players from Under 19 and above who have a desire to represent the Association at Senior International level - whether that be for footballing and/or political reasons.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The very nature of nationalism/republicanism is that it wants to see Northern Ireland no longer exist.

---

The decision to play for Ireland represents an exercising of "political" reasons to switch from the Northern Ireland FA. To use your quote and a previous quote attributable to you, this "political" decision to switch, is of a nationalism/ republicanism nature - player is "against" the existence of Northern Ireland. Given the nature of this political decision to switch, a subsequent switch back for footballing reasons and the player's acceptance back into the fold would appear at odds. Why would you want players that have switched and switched back to represent the Northern Ireland FA? Because if they are true to their beliefs, they do not want the team they are representing to exist. Shouldn't said players be honest with themselves? Surely these shysters can't have any genuine desire to represent the Northern Ireland FA and you can't have any genuine desire to see them taking the place of players that are true to their beliefs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Neither in theory nor in practice. They are allocated independently of one another by two separate, distinct and sovereign bodies of nationality law. One is not dependent on the other and one need not necessarily be held simultaneously with the other. A NI-born dual British and Irish citizen can renounce his British citizenship but that has no bearing on his Irish citizenship, for example.

---

The fundamental tenet of FIFA Eligibility Rules is Article 5.

How on earth did FIFA think their proposal was going to work within the framework of Article 5?

I don't think they thought that one through.

That said, if Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland was enough to make a player eligible for the Irish Football Association, then Article 6, by the letter of the (FIFA) law, would have to apply.

A daft proposal by FIFA really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The fundamental tenet of FIFA Eligibility Rules is Article 5.

How on earth did FIFA think their proposal was going to work within the framework of Article 5?

I don't think they thought that one through.

That said, if Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland was enough to make a player eligible for the Irish Football Association, then Article 6, by the letter of the (FIFA) law, would have to apply.

A daft proposal by FIFA really.

---

The logical inference of making such a proposal follows that FIFA would have passed further legislation to render what they were proposing exempt from the application of article 6.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifk101

The decision to play for Ireland represents an exercising of "political" reasons to switch from the Northern Ireland FA. To use your quote and a previous quote attributable to you, this "political" decision to switch, is of a nationalism/ republicanism nature - player is "against" the existence of Northern Ireland. Given the nature of this political decision to switch, a subsequent switch back for footballing reasons and the player's acceptance back into the fold would appear at odds. Why would you want players that have switched and switched back to represent the Northern Ireland FA? Because if they are true to their beliefs, they do not want the team they are representing to exist. Shouldn't said players be honest with themselves? Surely these shysters can't have any genuine desire to represent the Northern Ireland FA and you can't have any genuine desire to see them taking the place of players that are true to their beliefs?

---

Of course, the IFA is under absolutely no obligation to select anyone expressing a desire to switch to them. You'll note that Mr Bruce has not been selected, inspite of his "enthusiasm" to switch.

The reasons why a nationalist/republican would want to switch from the south to the Irish Football Association would not be for me to understand or explain - but, if they did, I'll cheer them on all the same.

If they had played for the Irish Football Association at Under 19 and above, switched to the south, and wanted to switch back (if they could?), I wouldn't select them, going forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The logical inference of making such a proposal follows that FIFA would have passed further legislation to render what they were proposing exempt from the application of article 6.

---

Large can of worms.

In such a scenario, it would be one rule for the Irish, and another rule for everyone else.

Problematic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Large can of worms.

In such a scenario, it would be one rule for the Irish, and another rule for everyone else.

Problematic.

---

It would certainly have created an anomaly whereby just the IFA were treated differently to all other associations in that citizens of an external jurisdiction would have become eligible to play for the IFA on account of their external citizenship that bore no logical relationship to the IFA - nothing would have changed with regard to eligibility to play for the FAI in that Irish citizens born north of the border already were eligible to play for the FAI on account of their Irish citizenship - but it appears FIFA were prepared to go ahead with it for no other rational reason than to placate the IFA's protests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

but it appears FIFA were prepared to go ahead with it for no other rational reason than to placate the IFA's protests.

---

It appears to who?

I don't really see how it would have placated their protests, if it had immediately been followed by a change in regulations rendering it meaningless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by osarusan

It appears to who?

I don't really see how it would have placated their protests, if it had immediately been followed by a change in regulations rendering it meaningless.

---

FIFA obviously proposed it in the hope it would satisfy the IFA. It would have been followed by a change in regulations to render it meaningful.