NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Well in fairness, he was half right/half wrong. The word "retrospectively" says it all really.....

Btw can the FAI appeal it at all?

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It's bad news really if you ignore the spin.

DG was always going to be OK. He declared in 2003 before the rule change. To apply rules retrospectively would open a huge can of worms and rule many players ineligible for their national teams. NI would lose Maik Taylor for example.

It does appear we've lost the case. FIFA haven't made an announcement yet but that is the clear interpretation.

The FAI can appeal. Whether they will or not is another matter. They probably have other things on their mind at the moment.

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Originally Posted by gspain

It's bad news really if you ignore the spin.

DG was always going to be OK. He declared in 2003 before the rule change. To apply rules retrospectively would open a huge can of worms and rule many players ineligible for their national teams. NI would lose Maik Taylor for example.

It does appear we've lost the case. FIFA haven't made an announcement yet but that is the clear interpretation.

The FAI can appeal. Whether they will or not is another matter. They probably have other things on their mind at the moment.

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The information out there is that Darron declared in 2005 well after the Annex was in operation.
Darron is 19 years old.
His transfer was lock solid at the time.

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Originally Posted by geysir

The information out there is that Darron declared in 2005 well after the Annex was in operation.
Darron is 19 years old.
His transfer was lock solid at the time.

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The regulations came into force in 2004. The Annex clarifying them was issued in 2005.

DG played for us in 2003


http://www.elevenaside.com/boysingre...sp?newsid=8150


Bad start for under-17s


October 22, 2003

Rep of Ireland U17 1-2 Austria U17
Noel O’Reilly’s Irish under-17 side suffered a setback in their hopes of making it to the second qualification phase of the Uefa European Championships when going down to their Austrian counterparts in Grenchen, Switzerland on Tuesday evening.

The Irish went into this four-team tournament – from which two sides go forward to the next phase – as one of the favourites to progress following their friendly tournament victory in Hungary in August.

The game appeared to be heading for a scoreless draw before a dramatic final ten minutes, when the Austrians scored twice before Ireland battled back to close the deficit to one before the final whistle.

Substitute Idrizaj opened the scoreline for the Austrians on 71 minutes, and they doubled the lead through striker Hoffer five minutes later.

Leeds United youngster Ian Morris converted from the penalty spot in injury time at the end of the 80 minutes after Ipswich’s Billy Clarke had been deemed to have been fouled inside the area, but the Irish teenagers were unable to find the leveller that would have given them a better chance of claiming one of the two qualification berths.

In the day’s other game, Belarus caused an upset when downing the hosts Switzerland on a 1-0 scoreline in Lyss. Ireland meet Belarus in Lyss tomorrow (Thursday).

Rep of Ireland under-17: Randolph (Charlton Athletic), Keane (Belvedere), Stapleton (Reading), Gibson (Derry City), O’Dea (Celtic), S. Kelly (Kingdom Boys), J.P. Kelly (Liverpool), Morris (Leeds United), O’Carroll (Celtic), Stokes (Arsenal), Hayes (Reading). Subs: Gaynor (Millwall) for Hayes (67 mins), Clarke (Leeds United) for Stokes (75 mins), Fitzgerald (Lourdes Celtic) for Keane (77 mins).

Austria under-17: Kuru, Gramann, Asinger, Suttner, Hackmair, Kreimer, Madl, Walzer, Tosun, Hoffer, Seelaus. Subs: Idrizak for Kreimer (41 mins), Lercher for Seelaus (60 mins), Okotie for Hoffer (80 mins).

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Originally Posted by gspain

It's bad news really if you ignore the spin

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That would be my reading too.

And I think FIFA have rules in place to punish anybody who goes the legal route (which of course the FAI would win)

very bad news for the lads from across the border who see themselves as Irish.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

very bad news for the lads from across the border who see themselves as Irish.

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Isn't it just - they'll maybe have to consider playing for the IRISH Football Association team.:eek:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Isn't it just - they'll maybe have to consider playing for the IRISH Football Association team.:eek:

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and get sectarian abuse from some (not all) of the fans? If they've got an Irish passport, see themselves as Irish and don't want to play for a BRITISH team then they should be allowed to follow in Gibson's footsteps IMO.

terrible news for those in the north who don't feel represented by NI. a shame that a major portion of the GF agreement cannot be replicated by football.

ignore the spin, this case was always about more than Darron Gibson. A bad ruling imo for the RoI.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

That would be my reading too.

And I think FIFA have rules in place to punish anybody who goes the legal route (which of course the FAI would win)

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I don't think the legal route is an option and frankly we wouldn't win. We could use the FIFA appeals process and the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

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Originally Posted by gspain

The regulations came into force in 2004. The Annex clarifying them was issued in 2005.

DG played for us in 2003
http://www.elevenaside.com/boysingre...sp?newsid=8150.

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Point taken. As I said there is information out there that he declared in 2005.
Obviously not right though.

That means he was 2 days into his 16th year when he played for the u 17´s

:rolleyes:

unfortunately this thread is on its last legs...................

the roundabout will begin to rehash - lennon... we've changed ... we are british and irish at the same time ... you only sing brit songs .... we are the Irish Football Association ... November 1993 ... we've changed ... even nationalists should want to play for us .... No surrender ... a new flag ... a new song ... blah ... blah ... blah

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

and get sectarian abuse from some (not all) of the fans? If they've got an Irish passport, see themselves as Irish and don't want to play for a BRITISH team then they should be allowed to follow in Gibson's footsteps IMO.

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Unfortunately for you, it's FIFA's "opinion" that counts.

Your "sectarian abuse" comment is so tired.

Several Irish Passport holders proudly play for Northern Ireland....none of them receive sectarian abuse.

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Originally Posted by Spanner

Valiant effort to keep it going...after nearly 800 posts :rolleyes:

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:confused: what are you on about

Tbh honest, I cant see how they could lose if they appealed, the whole idea of FIFA having a legal department and lawyer(s) ( who review all cases individually ), is to ensure that whatever it rules on is legally binding and doesn't infringe on a humans right. It is the right of anyone under the GFA to consider themselves a citizen of Eire, as the passport says, therefore under any ruling they would therefore be allowed to choose who to represent. I have to say I didnt think FIFA would rule this way.

There is very little new in todays announcement for those of us who have been taking a close interest in all this. Now for the politicians again.....

i'm sure it's been said but a football organization should follow a nation's law, not the other way around.

In most cases would not the grandparents have been born before partition and therefor the likes of Gibson still be qualified for the ROI.

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Originally Posted by Ordinary Fan

In most cases would not the grandparents have been born before partition and therefor the likes of Gibson still be qualified for the ROI.

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Unlikely to be the case unless the player was born in the 70s or early 80s maybe but time rattles on. I could stand corrected however if Gibsons father is a Sugar Daddy.

well heres the thing. If my father decided to get British citizen ship, which he could do due to being born before 1947, then I could do too, as he would have british citizenship

If the player has a grandfather in the same way then he could too.....so i would have thought this worked the other way round too?!

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It is the right of anyone under the GFA to consider themselves a citizen of Eire

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WRONG!
They can consider themselves and be accepted as Irish, British or both. Also "their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments".

That doesn't give them a right to play for a foreign* football team.

* Like it or not, the Republic of Ireland team is just that. They are not a de facto Ireland team.

Whoever said previously this was always about Gibson is way off. Most NI fans are much more concerned about the principle of the Republic pinching our players than this one. Gibson was just the straw that broke the Camel's back and as long as we get the principle of jurisdictional integrity you can keep Gibson, I doubt he'd get near the NI team following his defection anyway.

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Originally Posted by gspain

I don't think the legal route is an option and frankly we wouldn't win. We could use the FIFA appeals process and the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

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I'm not sure why you would think we wouldn't win a legal challenge. I would think it's more likely that the FAI would win a legal challenge if they took it far enough. What I would doubt is whether the FAI would have any appetite to begin legal proceedings that could be both lengthy and costly. Eventually I believe it may have to come down to an individual taking a stand at some point to assert his rights.

That would however have to be an exceptionally strong-minded individual.

The Irish times

The paper reports that the FAI:

described as “good and constructive” its meeting with Fifa yesterday in relation to the eligibility of players born in the North to play for the Republic. A four-strong delegation from Merrion Square came away from Zurich with a commitment that there will be no retrospective changes to the current position. The status of Darron Gibson has, therefore, been resolved.

Beyond that, it remains to be seen what attitude Fifa’s legal people will take to the IFA’s claim that the terms of the political settlement in Northern Ireland altered the situation. “We need some time to review all of the information that has been presented at these meetings,” said a spokesman for Fifa yesterday.

No decisions yet, i still expect the FIFA ruling of October 2006(post rule change) by Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'." to stand.

A bit early for the 'billy boys' to be creaming the pants !!

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Originally Posted by Maroon 7

I'm not sure why you would think we wouldn't win a legal challenge. I would think it's more likely that the FAI would win a legal challenge if they took it far enough. What I would doubt is whether the FAI would have any appetite to begin legal proceedings that could be both lengthy and costly. Eventually I believe it may have to come down to an individual taking a stand at some point to assert his rights.

That would however have to be an exceptionally strong-minded individual.

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FIFA decide who is eligible for national teams. They make the rules and if we don't like it then.....

Frankly I can't see the FAI taking it much further anyway. Delaney has enough on his plate and he can spin a positive angle here.

I agree on a player taking a case. That is the most likely outcome of a challenge if such a challenge was to materialise. The IFA would fight such a challenge though and as in the case of Bosman a victory would only benefit others if such a challenge was to be eventually successful.

A grandparent born before partition is a red herring anyway. Even if you had a very old grandparent FIFA's rule talk about being born in the terriritory of the football association and NI was always in the IFA's territory since 1880. In fact such a claim could be used for RoI born and bred players to declare for NI if they had a grandparent born before 1921.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Unfortunately for you, it's FIFA's "opinion" that counts.

Your "sectarian abuse" comment is so tired.

Several Irish Passport holders proudly play for Northern Ireland....none of them receive sectarian abuse.

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I think replacing the national anthem should be high on the agenda now do you agree?

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In fact such a claim could be used for RoI born and bred players to declare for NI if they had a grandparent born before 1921.

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hmm, its not 1921, its 1947 gspain.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

hmm, its not 1921, its 1947 gspain.

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Think it's 1921 actually, leaving the commonwealth and declaring a republic is different then partition.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Think it's 1921 actually, leaving the commonwealth and declaring a republic is different then partition.

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I believe the actual date to be 6 December 1922, but have also found a reference to 6 December 1921.

The rules in this case are FIFA's rules not those regarding passports or when we gained independence.

The date is open to question. Peter Byrne recounts in the FAI's official history that the association was formed at Molesworth hall on June 1st 1921 although that maybe be the league as opposed to the FAI. We were admitted to FIFA in late 1923. I'm not aware of the dates here if they are recorded.

The rules relate to the terroritory of the football association. Even if a player had a grandparent born prior to 1921 or 1923 then they would have been born in the terrirtory of the IFA so it hardly benefits our case.

Anyway in fairness to FIFA and the IFA it wasn't exactly an earth shattering decision to say that players brought up in NI can only play for NI. However we have had a huge increase in support from NI (presumably mainly if not exclusively nationalists) in recent years and the next DG going to the Brandywell to support Derry City and down to Dublin to support the Roi is being told by FIFA that they cannot play for what they consider to be their national team. However that player is probably also playing schools and club football for clubs who get funding from the IFA and the UK government.

I think there is still some mileage in this one but I reckon it will need a player to make te case now.

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Originally Posted by soccerc

I believe the actual date to be 6 December 1922, but have also found a reference to 6 December 1921.

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Treaty signed 6 December 1921, approved in the Dail in January 1922.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I think replacing the national anthem should be high on the agenda now do you agree?

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It's been pretty high on my agenda for quite some time now - but probably for different reasons than yourself.

I think that if a Northern Ireland player (or "group" of players) raised the issue, it would expediate some change.

Maybe something akin to the practice of the IRFU would be a step forward?

GSTQ & new "anthem" in Belfast

New "anthem" only, away from home.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Who cares what you lot do? I don't.

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I understand that it might be a tough oul time for you Paddy, but I was merely responding to a question from eirebhoy.

And...you obviously cared enough to post about you not caring.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

I was simply making the point that nobody on here has the slightest interest in the ramblings of you or Ealing Green or your sad statelet team. And what anthem you play in front of your 'team' is your business.

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No problem chum.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Treaty signed 6 December 1921, approved in the Dail in January 1922.

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I am well aware of the dates of the treaty.

I was researching a totally different aspect, purchases of motor vehicles by the Irish Free State 1921-29, in the National Archives when I came across a couple of documents relating to the breakway football association of the Irish Free State.

They piqued my interest and I followed through on the files, External Affairs IIRC, and came upon some dates as to who could be given a passport and citizenship. While the treaty was signed in Dec 21, the documents referred to a parent or grandparent born on or before 6 Dec '22.

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Originally Posted by soccerc

I am well aware of the dates of the treaty.

I was researching a totally different aspect, purchases of motor vehicles by the Irish Free State 1921-29, in the National Archives when I came across a couple of documents relating to the breakway football association of the Irish Free State.

They piqued my interest and I followed through on the files, External Affairs IIRC, and came upon some dates as to who could be given a passport and citizenship. While the treaty was signed in Dec 21, the documents referred to a parent or grandparent born on or after 6 Dec '22.

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No offence mate, just saw 6 December and assumed you were talking aboutthe treaty and you'd got your years mixed up. Probably some agreement giving grace to anyone born within 12 months of the signing. But haven't people from the 6 counties always been entitled to a passport regardless?

If FIFA are about to tell me and hundtreds of thousands of others we don't qualify for the Republic, which as far as i can tell is still an if, i would expect they will end up in Laganside courts.

I would imagine if this is the case the FAI will make a point of doing this quickly.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

But haven't people from the 6 counties always been entitled to a passport regardless?

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Yes, I don't know why people keep bringing up the GFA as people in the occupied 6 counties have ALWAYS been entitled to Irish passports!

I cant believe FIFA think they can tell us different! How the hell can we not play for the republic while Bosnian Croats and Serbs play for Serbia and Croatia?? The FAI and the Irish government had better get this sorted!!

Have we?

I seem to recall having to provide details of grandparents born in ROI on a previous passport applciation.

You had to provide details of a parent or grandparent being born in Ireland before partition, in the Irish Republic after partition, or being an Irish passport holder. Potentially it could (and probably would) have been passed through the generations forever.

Then it was changed to born anywhere in Ireland after the GFA, then changed again cos of 9 month pregnant immigrants arriving in Dublin airport from all parts of the world. I'm not sure who isn't entitiled to it now, but i know Me, Darron Gibson, Micheal O'Conner and Tony Kane are, as well as David Healy (if he had any ambition that is)

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Have we?

I seem to recall having to provide details of grandparents born in ROI on a previous passport applciation.

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Not the case. Your entitlement to an Irish passport and citizenship does not differ depending on where on this island you were born (the rules have changed recently but not regarding NI or RoI).

The GFA merely enshrined th eright because Articles 2 & 3 were being modified.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

If FIFA are about to tell me and hundtreds of thousands of others we don't qualify for the Republic, which as far as i can tell is still an if, i would expect they will end up in Laganside courts.

I would imagine if this is the case the FAI will make a point of doing this quickly.

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do ye know what,BTW, you could well be a young fella with an ambition to play for the republic, whats to stop you pursuing your dream of playing for us, could be worth a try ;)