Clubs need "home grown players", hence the likes of Fabian Delph at City. I do think City would look at him as an understudy to FerdandinhoQuote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
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Clubs need "home grown players", hence the likes of Fabian Delph at City. I do think City would look at him as an understudy to FerdandinhoQuote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Yes, it is early days for him yet, not every player live up to their early expectations. We have a couple of players ranked above him in the
stats so it is not the end of the world!
How many Gerrards are there? Not many!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Some of the posts earlier in the thread are brutal now :(
Anyway as someone with a similar background to Rice I can definitely empathise with his situation regarding his national identity. Kilbane's simplistic attitude of "you're either Irish or English" is really irritating. However, to win 3 senior caps and then switch sides less than a year later is a serious dick move, especially after everything he said before. It's also going to prejudice people against young English-born players in our youth teams which I think is a real shame. What I would have liked from his statement is an apology for taking the three caps without being sure that he wanted to play for Ireland.
I was born in the England and have lived in the UK for most of my life. I have both a UK and an Irish passport. I don't go round wanting England to lose every game or anything like that, but I would rather have had one Irish cap than a plethora of one's for England. For me it's not 50:50, it's not an "agonising decision", for me it's not even a "decision" at all.
Yesterday’s events have clarified something for me. It is really important that our dual-qualified lads don’t face a backlash from this,Boovidge and others are bang on there.Poor oul Mickey Obafemi already had to deal with some of the fallout and did so with class and dignity.However, I really don’t want Bamford to get a shirt now.As for Redmond,he’s playing out of his skin but the fact is he’s just not Irish,I don’t really care what the rules say.Like in theory it’d be great to have the best possible starting eleven on the pitch but an Irish cap should be something precious and not a runners-up prize or something to be used as leverage in contract or sponsorship negotiations.One of the key things to our rebuild of the team has to be a reconnection to the fans.I think I’d rather see McLean kick the ball 20 yards ahead of himself into touch for evermore than have to read some gash about Will Keane retiring from international duty to prolong his club career.im not saying its logical or likely to bring us the most success but we deserve better.
100%. We also need zero tolerance policy going forward. If you turn down a call up your Irish international career could be over that momentQuote:
Originally Posted by Fizzer
Also, saying he has "equal respect and love" for Ireland as well as England irks the sh*t out of me. If that was the case and the respect and love were so equal, then he'd demonstrate a bit of loyalty to the country that constantly picked and supported him.
Sounness weights in: https://www.balls.ie/football/graeme...an-rice-405936
https://cdn-04.independent.ie/incomi...dec%20rice.png
a picture can tell a 1000 words!
Think Souness has hit the nail on the head, Declan Rice declared for England because of money, his agent and those 'close to him' saw the Pound Sterling signs and that was that. The reality is when it comes to mercenary issues-we will always lose out to England.
"Mercenary"
"Using Ireland as a stepping stone"
"Hope he gets injured"
"Change the rules"
Some of this is very reminiscent of the kind of stuff that Our Wee Country posters get so lambasted for.
"Football fans in hypocrisy shocker!"
Fellow dual-nationalist, Miguel Delaney, gives his take. Instead of tightening up the rules, he suggests they should be loosened even further, which probably won't go down well here - https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a8778351.html
A sad day....but perhaps it's a day that should've happened sooner. Let's be honest, at the very least we took advantage of the "Irish" network by nabbing senior stars like McGeady and McCarthy very early on. We've done it with others.
Of course it hurts, but it hurts on many levels.
There's a line in his statement that tells us everything:
"in all honesty, not one I ever expected to be making at this stage of my career". So he knew that the time would come that he would possibly be offered the chance to play for England, and he still pursued
There is an easy solution to all of this of course, for any future superstars. They are called in advance of a competitive international and told they're going to be selected to play. Bring the family over, huge honour, etc etc. If they decline the call-up you know they're un-interested. You drop them forever. Because what shouldn't be discounted in all of this, are the boys (and girls) who are not Irish-born* who every time they pony up to an International, will have people openly questioning their commitment. Who never wanted to play for anyone other than IE.
That's what makes me want to call Rice a c*nt.
I think the anger in this instance relates to the senior caps Rice has received. If his appearances had been limited to Irish youth teams, then the reaction would be limited to disappointment imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
In regards to NI, I've always been of the view that Northern players who desire to represent the Irish national team should make the Irish youth teams/FAI their first port of call. If that doesn't work out then they can switch to NI if they so desire.
In his own head he was genuinely committed to Ireland. He's had his head persuasively turned towards the England team and he did consider that decision.. Playing for England is not seen by him as playing for an opposite dark force.
With Breen and Kilbane it's all black and white as if they haven't the ability to appreciate or value that there are different nuances to Irish identity.
Those two grew up as first generation Irish, both parents irish, lyons tea & kimberly mikado, GAA and summers spent in paradise. Obviously their Irish ethnicity is thickened. But not everybody has that fanatic upbringing.
Rice is 2nd generation and only on his father's side.
I have a 1st cousin once removed, with similar lineage to Declan and similar ethnic ties, he's certainly not a replica of his father's irishness, however it's about 50/50 but the default 50% would be English.
The three senior caps thing is definitely the most annoying part of the switch. Generally I can see why players switch at underage level, and I can see why the rule to switch after a senior cap makes sense for lads with one cap in a friendly. I wouldn't go so far as to wish ill on Rice, but I certainly won't be cheering him on in his career. I'd like to see the rules tightened up so it's any competitive senior cap, or more than one senior friendly cap that ties a player permanently.
Roy Keane and Ireland being openly trolled by West Ham owner now. Oh the humanity!!!
Ireland need to start weeding out these dual national lads early on. For instance, Conor Coventry (just an example) at West Ham should be called up to the Senior squad and if he refuses then out he goes.
100% this. This is the only variable we can control. Cap tie them early on, it feels a little like we would be hoarding players but it would stop this charade from happening again.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
He was our u17 player of the year two years ago a couple of months later we played Moldova, we were 2-0 up at home, we brought on After for Hoolihan and Maguire for Long at the end, if we'd slung him on he'd have been tied to us.
MON hinted at something at the time, that lead me to believe he would have hedged, but equally that would be a better outcome than this. Also, and this is key, MONs subsequent handling of the Obafemi matter casts complete doubt on his decision making ability in these scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Cap them, tell them they are getting capped, call them out early I agree, with a tandem strategy of no second chances, if its us pick us but we aren't going to be an either or while you see how the career is shaping up. Take that off the table, even three months ago, and we would have been stronger in this. We have cards, so play them.
he had only played less than a couple of hours of premiership football at that stage from memory. we cant cheapen caps in the way you suggest. also, everything that Rice was saying and acted at that stage, and continued to do so after Moldova, gave management no reasons at all to be fearful he would jump ship.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Maybe MON thought the best way of dealing with the obafemi issue was to draw him out and effectively force him to announce there and then that he was fully committed to us. if it was the policy it workedQuote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
It's what Wales have done and they've held onto two awesome prospects in Ampadu and Brooks as a result. You could argue both of those guys are on a similar level to Rice in terms of potential.
Wales have done it extremely successfully.
I'd be more inclined to suggest you offer the call-up and if declined that's the end of the matter. It's likely not to be as clear-cut as that though, e.g. "I'm injured", or "I've just broken into my club side and want to concentrate on that", rather than "I'm keeping my options open".
I suspect what is so galling about the Rice situation is that despite what you can on one reading, take from his statement yesterday, up until England showed an interest he appears to have been determined to play for Ireland. At the very beginning of the speculation Rice gave an interview in which he said words to the effect that there was no decision to make. He didn't have to make that statement, and it's different to Grealish who never (as far as I am aware) gave a similar commitment.
There are lessons to be learned from the top down in the FAI. Should they have a policy similar to the Welsh, where they find these young talents at 16, 17, 18, and tie them early? In Woodburn, Ampadu, and Brooks Wales have potentially guaranteed a competitive side for the next 10 years. None of these were Welsh born. Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the Irish youth set-up over the past 15 years.
what has woodburn done since his decent few weeks in autumn 2017?Quote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
brooks is quality but ampudu is far from proven. neither was capped in a game of any great importance by wales.
Woodburn isn't the best example although he's probably got a similar amount of international goals as Shane Long.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
If I need to emphasis my point I'll add Daniel James at Swansea and Tyler Roberts at Leeds. Also stick Rabbi Matondo who joined Schalke for £10m in the summer. They're doing a far better job than we are. If, as it seems, the FAI want to recruit second and third generation players, they're doing a very poor job of it.
1 vs longs 17 for IrelandQuote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
I definitely agree that the FAI should adopt a policy similar to Wales. They need to smarten up re capping younger talent and weeding out those who are humming and hawing about playing for us at senior level. Call dual national lads up early and secure them or call their bluff. If they choose to opt out they should no longer be picked. The Jack Grealish saga was bad enough but this one really takes the biscuit altogether and definitely calls on the FAI to review the entire situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
Am I right in thinking that if he changes allegiances to England through FIFA, there's no coming back?
So it would be entirely possible that he could end up never being capped by England, but also unable to return to Ireland?
That is my understanding, once the paperwork is complete, he can only represent England from then on.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He's probably the next in line.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Once the U19 campaign is over - he should be called up to the senior team, if he turns it down then his place in the U21s can go to someone else.
His connection to Ireland is closer than Rice & Grealish. Coventry's mother is Irish according to wikipedia.
I had meant to say in the last two years. Having checked it I think its closer to three.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Try not to get too hung-up on Ben Woodburn, I mean, you don't work for the FAI recruitment team...
Which would probably imply the double-whammy of an upcoming England call-up so. Otherwise, no need to go actively sending in paperwork. (Though appreciate there's a time lag to process)Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
As far as I know his mother is from Kilkenny (stand to be corrected, but she's definitely Irish), Will Smallbone's mother is also from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
Hopefully the Irish mammy can work to good effect in these cases so.
In the case of Rice, it was his mother's side that wanted him to play for England. (a bit of FB snooping will verify that)
I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
1) Does it cheapen a cap that much by having him play 30 seconds in a game that's already been won Vs Moldova. We are not talking about players starting and playing the full 90 mins against say France in the Euros
2) With the situation like Rice you risk cheapening the caps anyway. He's cheapened three caps by now effectively making himself an ineligible player.
3) Rice and Grealish have eaten up places in our under age squads (and with Rice also the senior squad) for years and now it transpires that both no longer intend to play for us. This has robbed other genuine players of significant chunks of development and experience and that is likely to do far more damage to Irish football than locking down a waverer by throwing them on for 30 seconds.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
They won't take the cap anyway if they are wavering, its a free fix.
Was going to post something similar to this. It actually doesn’t cheapen caps at all, instead it places a considerable up front value on a career in green.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Seriously? They only invented the game. And I think they won the World Cup as well. We would never be proud of those achievements, now would we?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
An awful lot of crying over spilled milk right now.
When the going gets tough the tough usually get going, so why are we whinging like babies right now?
I wish Declan Rice all the best in the remainder of his career, except when he plays against Ireland.
After that I won't give it a second thought. Get on with it, start developing our own talent, start importing some South American and African youth coaches and lets polish our own diamonds.
This should be a turning point in Irish football, where we can finally say we learned our lesson from the Declan Rice saga.
But you know we won't, we'll still be playing hoofball in 20 years time. And Rice will look back in 20 years time at us, and say to himself that he made the correct decision.
I've forgotten about him already. I don't wish him ill and I certainly don't wish him well. Offering the latter is just a move away from lying down and letting him p*ss in your mouth.
Anyway...I hope the whole debacle acts as a wake up call for the FAI on how the 'get out of jail free card' the granny rule provides can no longer be relied upon.
I wouldn't despair about the future either, whatever about the present. There's some really eye-catching young talent in that 16 to 21 age bracket.