Right you are sir. We are indeed out of touch. The ould black and white TV is very grainy these days and the airoplane that takes us back home hasn't been built yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
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Right you are sir. We are indeed out of touch. The ould black and white TV is very grainy these days and the airoplane that takes us back home hasn't been built yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Long was out of form and shouldn't be playing. It happens. Meanwhile we have a fit striker in Walters on the wing. So yes, Long was under instructions from Trap in as far as he's on the pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Trap played the same formation for every match. 4-4-2 with two holding central midfielders, one of which is Glenn Whelan. It doesn't matter if it's against cannon fodder in a qualifier or against Croatia at the Euros. Bilic studied DVDs of our matches and read us like a book. Double mark our wingers and you stifle all the creativity in the team, because there is not creativity in the centre of the park. Slip a playmaker between our two banks of four and he can do what he wants because we play so tactically rigid that there is always space there. It's exactly what Zlatan did against us in Dublin. Drop back into the space between the two banks of four and do as you like. Advocaat did the same thing with Russia, double mark our wingers and slip a playmaker between our banks of four. We were found out three years ago! But Trap just never sees it. He never had to, because, as he keeps going on, he had Boniek, Platini, Brady.
So what exactly was he being paid for when managing Ireland? He was supposed to analyse the opposition and come up with tactics for each match. But he does the same thing, over and over and over again. 4-4-2, two holding midfielders, rigid banks of four. If it is written in stone that we must always play the exact same formation, come rain or shine, then why bother with a manager at all? Save the million odd euros a year.
Yes, we have limited players. No, we don't have Platini and Boniek. That's exactly why we need a manager who is willing to get the most out of our limited resources and not take the **** by managing us by DVD from some lake in Italy.
Latest blog on Trap era and possible successors. Bit of a long piece, was a ******* to finish!
http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/201...ts-sprung.html
incredible logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
you dont have to be "in form" to look up and play a simple ball accross the goal.
Once the first lie was told by our meeja, the first blatant, manufactured lie that was typical of fleet st/wapping wannabe dark art gobdaws, the coach should have gone. When it gets to the point where our "expert" is claiming that german football has serious problems, that the Spanish coach is only on 50k a year, and he and the ringmaster sneer at our best player, it doesn't matter who the next sacrificial lamb is, because the coach gave in to meeja pressure, as did his employers, and it made a mockery of the sport. If he'd gotten gibson, ireland, reid (both of them) giles and brady onto the pitch there'd be someone else to beat him with. It's a sick joke and nothing to do with sport.
It's media, not meeja.
It wasnt a sly dig. I lived out there for a year, so i know how difficult it was for myself, granted it was a long time ago now and things have changed in 10 or so years. But even so, you dont get to see as many games, its a valid question.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post though, Trap was solely to blame for the poor performances in Euros and against Germany he was far too slow for too long and got caught out. Granted most of those have played now and we lost the last 2 games but thats a different thing altogether.
The meejahideen osarusan. Did you read about that investigative journalist(Gemma O'Doherty) that got fired from the independent last week on the QT? Interesting article in the Guardian about it. Stepped on the wrong toes.... http://www.theguardian.com/media/gre...endent-irelandQuote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Brnie3 got me thinking about something, one of the main reasons it all came undone was because, he no longer had duff, and mcgeady wasnt available in the last few games to offer relief. Thats the biggest failing of the man, his system depended wholly on two speedy wingers capable of counter-attacking and creating chances from the wing. When those players weren't available he put square pegs in round holes and it didnt work. So after being stifled for so long, we ended up being suffocated, there was zero creativity. And thats where he should have been smart enough and experienced enough to bring in a playmaker like hoolohan for example, or just change his rigid and benign system.
But ya, any half decent manager spotted our strengths and more importanly our weaknesses. They used their most potent force to wonderful effect against our weakest achilles heel, modric/ibra/alaba etc. It shows just how toothless Trap was really. Thats why he has done nothing in 10+ years, as he is too institutionalised in his 70s/80s play and the game has passed him by. His tactics and system are well outdated.
an unbeaten away competitive record until Austria, euro qualification, near wc 2010 qualification, paris, bari and other results would suggest otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Sure kerr got a draw in paris, so what? When it really mattered we got hammered in the euros against any decent opposition. We got an easy group and qualified for the Euros, its like Switzerland on top of their group, Trap would have got us out of that no problem!
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
He also won titles in Portugal and Austria in the last eight years... nothing indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
so he should have only given new caps to 7-12 players? Of the players he didn't cap, the only real outstanding "should have played" is Chris McCann, who was out injured for a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Kerr came closer to winning a qualification group than Trap ever did.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
People like to knock Kerr, but that Zizou captained French team went on to lose the World Cup final on penalties. And Kerr, with a tiny bit of luck, might have won the group.
Or a tiny bit of 'not f**king up' against Israel... twice.
I agree he didn't do the worst job in the world though.
There have been times when Robbie was out of form and shouldn't have been picked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
No player in the Irish team should have a throne. We should field the best XI at our disposal at the time.
This is pretty basic stuff really.
Didnt do the job for salzburg, which was to get into CL group stageQuote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
?? Are you familiar with football?Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
When a player is out of form, lacking in confidence and his club is trying to push him out the door, the simple things can start to go wrong.
Footballers are human beings.
Alaba too, forgot that. Our centre-midfield has had the mickey taken out of it for three years now and Trap just stands by and does nothing. We even made the Armenians look like Brazil.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
As you say, Trap got away with it as long as he had Duff, who is our greatest player from the post-Roy Keane era, winning free kicks all over the place.
Trapattoni finished two points behind group winners Russia in qualifying for Euro 2012, and six points behind group winners Italy inthe World Cup 2010 qualifiersQuote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Kerr finished three points behind group winners Frances in the World Cup 2006 qualifiers, and four points behind group winners Switzerland in Euro 2004 qualifiers
But let's not let facts get in the way of an argument
If by "with a tiny bit of luck" you mean "if he had learned how to hold on to a lead in three games" then yeah, we might haveQuote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Jaysus Paul, you were whining on about 'revisionism' in a post yesterday - The above is plain and simple hor$e$hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Depressing Euros' admittedly. This wasnt just against 'decent' opposition as you say but actually against the 'best' opposition possible - Two of the finalists ffs. Yes he could have and should have done things differently and the campaign that followed was a disaster but lets keep this in persepctive. The first four years were a relative success.
I was listening to the Dave O'Grady YBIG podcast posted the other day and one of the contributors was saying how he hoped the change of manager would bring about a change in style, back to playing football again on the deck, like back to the Ireland team of the 70's and 80's..........I was thinking, all sounds nice but I dont recall footage of all them tournaments we played in back then? It has to be balanced - absolutely a change in tactics, style and personnel is required but there will always be an element of workmanlike huff and puff to our game plan, I think its just in our DNA.
I think the absence of Dunne\St Ledger partnership at the back has been the bigger problem. I've not studied the stats but it feels like we have scored enough but conceded more than the previous Trap campaigns.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Oh right... I presume they stripped the club of their title then as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Trap was initially all about being hard to play through and difficult to score against. He was very happy to play without the ball and he was happy to try and nick goals from corners and frees. Most of our important goals in campaign one came this way, often with Hunt providing the delivery.
Over time we became easier to play through, easier to score against and worse with set pieces.
The system long since stopped working and Trap's solution was to play more primitive football, trying to outmuscle defenders in their last quarter of the pitch.
There were distinct phases of Trap's tenure: the phase where things worked and the phase where they clearly didn't. The reluctance to offer anything to address the latter phase (such as dropping Whelan) is why he had to go.
Junior, you're right. There'll always be some huff and puff, but under Jack there was also quite a bit of quality thrown in too. We were far more than the Crazy Gang of the international scene. Mick, Kerr and Stan all played a bit more of a passing game and I think it was only Trap that ever played outright hoofball.
None of the popular analysis accepts that there are questions of degrees in all this. We don't aspire to be Spain, but we can aspire to something better than the drivel of the last 12 months. The only quality we have seen was from a player like Hoolahan - Poland and Georgia for example. Did Trap take any note?
and who exactly was showing better form for club or country during these alleged dips in form?Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
yes, thats how i could see both instances were a dreadful waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
its gas how its always 100% the managers fault and every excuse is thought up to preclude the players from blame
I thought Long had a shocker all round against Sweden. Even unprofessional at times. I wouldn't shy away from being critical of a player.
Ya he looked a bit disinterested or preoccupied at times, keane was in there, but i suppose having played that long for ireland holding the ball up he wasnt used to having keane or anyone in there at the precise moment he got the ball, I definitely think that had a big part to play in it. It was still so frustrating to watch though. I can't believe keane didnt completely bollick him out of it.
If Trap had been following our players then he'd know that Long was out of form and that West Brom were trying to get rid of him. He'd also know that Walters was the man in form. If his tactic was to play hoofball against tall Swedish defenders, then you'd think the more physical (and in form) Walters would be the player to put up front.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
It's never the manager's fault in your book, even when he makes farcical decisions.
I'm interested to know your opinion on last years Austrian and Portuguese championship winning managers and their various football styles (without goggling), please tellQuote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I dont know myself but then I dont READ football!:rolleyes:
He'd have seen Long score a lovely goal at Wembley, cause a lot of trouble but squander chances against Georgia and Wales. He'd have seen Walters miss yet another penalty at Anfield and not score from open play this season, squandering a few good chances on the way. I must have missed the sparkling form that Walters has been in at his club. Trap would have seen that while playing hoofball against Austria that Long was our best player.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
International managers do not drop club players based on a couple of weeks of bad form at club level. Very often players relish international football if their club situation isn't great. Picking him was not a grave error.
Long just played rubbish on the night, that's all.
I will admit completely that I didn't know of Trap's title wins in Portugal and Austria from memory. I responded to a claim he had done 'nothing' in the last ten years, when clearly winning two domestic titles is significantly more than nothing. All the more impressive, as Wiki informs me, that both titles were achieved in his first season with the clubs and neither side had won the league in a decade or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Nothing wrong with doing a bit of research and getting your facts correct before spouting nonsense.
Oh, and I haven't the faintest idea what kind of football Trap played with either side, but it obviously worked. Why do you want to know about last year's managers? Is that in some way relevant to the facts presented on what Trap has done over the past ten years? And how are you so sure that winning a first title in over a decade wasn't the main aim of Salzburg when they hired Trap... that anything less than Champions League group stage qualification wasn't acceptable? Perhaps you read it somewhere.
The Austrian league is hardly much to go by. I doubt managers Pat Fenlon is being reverred around the world for winning the LOI for example.
Portugese fair enough. He did 1 good thing bar get us to beat an estonian team away 4-1, who shat themselves when it mattered in 10 years, well done.
Lots of Trap haters seem to be seeing things in a very black-and-white way, yes, he made mistakes, yes, he played some unattractive football, no, he probably didn't get the team to play to their full potential, but he's not the ****ing antichrist, not everything he did has to be revised and made into an abject failure just because you don't like the guy. He came in, he did a solid but ultimately flawed job, which probably didn't merit the huge wages he was on. The Trap fanfiction people write in which he sits at home picking his hole and watching one DVD of Glenn Whelan each week is just as stupid as those who say he achieved miracles with Ireland and we had no right to qualify for the Euros at all.
He was manager of a team in the Austrian league. His side won that league. Accept it is an achievement and move on. Is the Austrian league comparable to LOI? I dont know but I suspect its of a better standard as you generally see a few sides competing in the Europa league at least. Neil Lennon has won a couple of SPL titles (a league which is no great shakes as you know) and no doubt Premiership Clubs will take note when a vacancy arises.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Getting beat by France in a play off (no embarassment) and qualifying for the Euro's were achievements. Stop rewriting the record books, Traps gone now. Oh and didnt we won 4-0 in Tallin anyway? ;)
The FAI had to tell him, after the 6-1 drubbing by Germany, that he needed to start watching more matches in person.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
This is the manager who banished a player from the squad based on mistaken identity. Seriously.
look back at my trap related posts for the last 14 months and you will find plenty of criticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
the blame for this campaign was down to some poor management decisions, injury to key players, poor individual performances, player retirement and lack of quality replacements. throw any manager into that and i doubt results would have been much better
This is the same FAI who hired Steve Staunton. I don't think their opinions are infallible.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
And Trap could have spent 18 hours a day analysing DVD footage of all of Ireland's players in minute detail. He could also have spent twenty minutes watching Match of the Day hoping to catch a glimpse of Keith Andrews in the corner of a shot. We don't know, and anyone who says we do is making stuff up to suit their own agenda.
Allegedly.Quote:
This is the manager who banished a player from the squad based on mistaken identity. Seriously.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
It's pretty desperate when someone has to repeat the wayward insane ramblings of Dunphy, in order to take a pot at Trap.
I admire your blind loyalty to a manager that has us playing hoofball and under whom we continually get humiliated on the pitch.