i dont think the club is complaining very much at all. Theyve just asked to be given time to raise all the money for all the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I am complaining though. Definitely.
i dont think the club is complaining very much at all. Theyve just asked to be given time to raise all the money for all the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I am complaining though. Definitely.
yep. We know that and we are going to. Thanks for the advice though.Quote:
Originally Posted by eelmonster
anyone got an answer on the Cork question? I genuinely dont know if the players who werent paid ever issued winding up notice..
No probs, you should have given me a shout in November and you could have avoided this nasty business altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
we'll know where to go next time! ;)
I was concerned about this matter to start with for the sake of a club that I had always seen as local - I went to school just down from Dalymount and have been a regular visitor to the ground since I was 3 years old. However the attitude of some "fans" of the club here and on the Bohs forum just drags away any positive feeling a well meaning neutral can have for them. I can honestly claim to come from an angle that few others who seem bent on railing against. I played for an Irish club's reserve side (in the old LOI Reserve League) and was diddled out of expenses because they were too cheap and sneaky to be honest. I went to play professionally abroad and the club I went to went bust the month before I arrived. I had a full 2 year contract with them and like other players was offered the chance to become a free agent or take compensation. Instead I went to play for a 1/6th of the wage and coached the side as we struggled to stay alive. I was then transferred to a full pro side in the same country who absolutely betrayed my goodwill and used me as a makeweight in a deal to give more money to another player. I ended up spending 3 nights sleeping in a bus station and then thumbing lifts back to my adopted home town as I was too broke to afford the price of a coffee and too embarrassed and ashamed to admit I'd been ripped off so badly. I had no recourse to make them pa up my legally signed contract or even my owed wages.
Since then I've been acutely aware of not busting the bank to make something happen when others are involved, and have always stood for players/athletes rights, within reason. Last season in the club I worked at I saw players go without wages for months and be made feel like they should be grateful to "wear the sacred shirt", well I'm sorry, but this is crap. If you want to carry on like this go sign for a junior C hurling side, don't pretend that just because of history and success that a club deserves to survive just because of a name. And do not make out that players are jumping the gun, pulling the trigger early or betraying the cause by asking for what they're due. And most sickening of all, do not claim that the players want their money before they go to Australia or elsewhere. What the heck has this to do with anything? They're entitled to this, they went out playing for your club and putting in the hours so why shouldn't they be paid.
"Fans" are always ready to rant about players being greedy, but this is nonsense. If they sign a contract, honour it. Warning signs were there last year when Bohs went on a signing spree. They gambled, they lost, they're to be treated like any other business who did the same. I do not want to see any club go under, especially a club which mean so much to Irish football, though history and sentiment needs to be removed from it all. The club didn't pay their bills on time, they've received money that is theirs and their supporters are raising funds to help the club survive. Now it's up to the administrators to take a hard decision. If they can't pay, face the consequences, don't target those who are without as being the cause.
I seem to recall that Gareth Farrelly lobbed one in at some stage?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Bit unfair Spudulika, can I refer you to the above
Quote:
Originally Posted by btid1
If you invoice people and say that invoices are due within 30 days, then that's a different matter to being told you'll be paid each week/month, and planning financially on that basis. Do you think the players' banks are saying "Sure hold off on the mortgage/credit card payments; we know Bohs are just waiting for the money"Quote:
Originally Posted by btid1
SkStu - if you seem to agree that Bohs have no right to complain, I hardly see how you personally have a right to complain. Like it or not, the fans - of any club - are probably the least affected in these scenarios, though they like to think they're more important than they really are at times.
Stu, whether the cork players at the time threatened a winding up order is irrelevant. these two players didnt and dont play for cork; they aren't bound by any precedent. and some folks seem so sure that mcguinness pushed these two into the legal route - any evidence? they're big lads, they could have decided it themselves.
whether he agrees with it or nor, mcguinness is their union rep and if they are paid up members, then he has to support them in their (admittedly not nice but still justifiable) grievance action against their employer.
if bohs goes tits up, it isnt really shelley and grey's fault, they only signed the contracts, they didnt write them. and if that happens, then im sure you could expect to see mcguinness representing the other members of the union. its not logical, but then little about sport and politics is, especially in ireland.
two employees of an under pressure company want paid for the previous 6 weeks. thats a long time if you're getting paid weekly, and if it was me, i would follow whatever recourse i felt was necessary. they arent fans or supporters, they're employees of the club. you mightnt like the stance that they are taking, but the actions of the club have made it a perfectly legitimate course of action to follow.
quick question as i genuinely don't know - did the bohs players also take a pay cut during the year? or am i getting confused (again)?
I think they took a pay cut in exchange for a contract extension at the start of last season.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
Of course we, fans, are the least affected by all such matters but surely we are allowed to complain even when we mightnt be fully right in doing so - complain about bad decisions, bad defending, bad goals, bad players, bad owners, bad managers etc etc. I thought thats what alot of being a fan was about.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
but, i should probably just go back to being silent on this thread as i did for the past few weeks/months and allow everything to go unchallenged.
Being a fan doesn't involve complaining about absolutely everything. Sometimes it involves looking at the bigger picture. As Dodge outlined more succinctly than I did, the players have acted perfectly reasonably. I think it's a disgrace that you're complaining about players looking for what they're due in the current day and age. The players are still technically in employment, so I'd imagine they can't even sign on. They've gone since before Christmas without pay, which presumably affected their holiday period. It's utterly, utterly selfish of you to complain about the players looking out for themselves at the expense of a club which has long been so incompetently managed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
like btid1, i dont disagree that the players arent entitled to their wages. We cannot honour the contracts for these 10 players for next season therefore we are trying to buy them out of their contracts and allow them to sign elsewhere without losing too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
Of course the 2 players are entitled to do what they have done but i dont like it and i dont think it is right. I dont like that McGuinness has encouraged them to do this to the possible detriment to the other 8 or to the possible detriment of the 2 in question. By encouraging and/or endorsing the approach of Shelley and Grey he has failed his duty as a union rep to look after and bargain the best deal for the collective.
cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
How come Bohs got their league money but Derry didn't a year ago?was it just because we had dual contracts were as Bohs have a simple cashflow problem? (Genuine question, not trying to bait anyone)
Pint taken Stu, but overall (not just on the rather more fanatic fans forum) the sentiment is against everyone, as well as the club administration. As a former pro I respect the players for doing what they're doing, if more players did, and were open about it, then you'd find that clubs would soon start copping on and trying to pay proper wages (ie lower) that are more realistic. At least I'd like to think so. Bohs can make themselves a standard bearer in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by btid1
but if more players did it, Spud, there wouldnt be many clubs left. And really it should only be done as a very last resort in my opinion. And these players werent open about it. How and ever, i dont want to keep repeating myself and i get that there is another argument on the side of the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
However, as soon as this mess sorts itself out, and i believe it will, and if we survive the rest of the messes ahead i am really hopeful that we will become the standard bearers you talk about. There is no other viable option for any club.
The players should be paid what they were promised. If they end up getting ripped off by even one cent then they are entitled and correct to do whatever they can to get what they are owed.
You realise clubs going broke and not being able to pay wages isn't the norm, yeah? It's more common than it ought to be, but it's far from the norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
From Dan McDonnells twitter
'It's out there now that Brian Shelley and Stephen Gray are the two players pursuing action against Bohs...'
Whats happened to the money raised so far? Thought there was over €200000 raised . Has that money been spent on something else? why couldnt all the players be paid out of that money first? Is the board still being paid a wage ?
Hold the phone but the bit highlighted is bull. They are doing it as a last resort and they were open about it. They declared weeks ago to the club and it was put in the public domain that they were going to take court action if the matter wasnt resovled. How in the name of Jehovah is that not being open?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Before you accuse me of dancing at the wake, it pains me greatly to see any club in trouble. I have said time and again that all clubs are one big fecker of a bill away from facing similar problems. Every clubs level of what would push them into this kinda scenario is different but there is no room for anyone to gloat. That said, Bohs have had an opportunity some weeks ago and even before the players started pushing for their wages, they should have seen this situation arising and prepared for it and sorted things before it got this far.
Confirmation that the court proceedings have been initiated: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soc...287470078.html
How are budgets for 2011 season done??
Is it based on money forecasted for the 2011 season or money received from the 2010 season?
Football is nothing without fansQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
huh? maybe because they wouldnt allow their names to be released. That is not being open. And that is what Spudulika seemed to be referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicme
Also, it is not the last resort for 8/10 of the players who are owed so what makes these two so special? Perhaps a bit of spending money before they get paid for their new jobs in Australia ( http://www.thecourier.com.au/news/lo...r/2046042.aspx ). Oh no wait, he just released a statement saying he actually DIDNT have a new job in Australia. Shady.
I dont blame them for not wanting their names in the public domain but the matter was open. As for the other players, maybe they have managed to secure other means of paying their bills and are not under so much pressure, or maybe they decided to let the other 2 pave the way. It was obviously a last resort for the 2 lads who chose this route coz they are unlikely to put themselves in this position, and possibly ruin their chances of playing in Ireland again, if they had no choice.
Lotto Numbers, Chairman picks any number and promises the sun, moon and stars to the Manager & Players, UEFA Licence a load of b.....x. when it comes to LOI.Quote:
Originally Posted by danthesaint
If any bohs fans on here wasnt being paid the right wage in their employment ,they wouldnt hesitate in bringing a case to the Labour court through their union so i cant see why they should have an issue with any player going down the same route. Blame the powers that be at Bohemian Fc and not the players who havent been paid the money they are owed and have bills to pay like the rest of us.
I'll try and take off my Rovers hat here because as much as at makes me happy to see our nearest rivals suffer, I don't particularly want to see them or any other clubs go under.
First, I think fans need to realise that footballers aren't like them. They don't buy into the club in the same way. Most of them grow up supporting English sides without much of a thought for the domestic league. They don't pay for matchday tickets and any loyalty to the club is mainly due to the players and coaches they know personally rather than any affiliation with the fans/badge. To expect them to act in the club's best interests when it's their own financial security at stake is frankly ridiculous - Bohs fans might make financial sacrifices to help save the club but you can't expect the players to make the same or deeper cuts.
Second, there is a huge issue of fairness here. Can anybody say whether this matter would have reached the courts were it not for the fact Paddy Madden (and perhaps others) is still being paid his full wage? This is pure common sense from the club - they need to keep paying him to get a necessary transfer fee - but it is naked self-interest and is putting the club's interests before its contracted employees. It's completely unethical, but it's business, and it's the environment that professional footballers have to operate in. To expect them to maintain some form of loyalty to a club that has shown none to them is frankly ridiculous.
As far as being self-employed goes, I think Pineapple Stu summed it up: footballers aren't contractors, they are fixed-term employees which entitles them by law to receive a set sum of money at regular intervals like any other employed person. Speaking as a self-employed person, I know how hard it can be to get money out of people (not getting paid at all is unfortunately part of the job), but in the players' case I can fully understand them going the legal route to get their due. They've upheld their end of the contract and the club is obliged to honour it in a timely fashion. Any other business that had gone 6 weeks without paying its employees would be the subject of some sort of action, especially a business that had decided to pick and choose which employees to pay based on how valuable they were to the company.
Jaysis, of course the matter was in the open. But thats not what Spud was referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicme
Yeah, speculate away. Sure we can all blindly speculate and come to any conclusion. It would appear neither player had any intention of playing in Ireland again anyway MagicMe. Did you look at the link in my post?Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicme
Sorry for not realising that you were refering specifically to Spuds comments.
Yes I did read that link and despite signing for 2 years and taking on the further roles in his new club, that is by no means a guarantee that he will not ever want to play in Ireland again. Ad as for me "blindly speculating" and coming "to any conclusion" are you not doing the same when you say that the other players didnt see it as a last resort. Alas, being a "discussion forum" this is the nature of the beast.
Were the players unknown to the club though? Did they just write an anonymous letter to the club demanding payment? How would the club know it was from the players and not a prank? How would they know who to pay? Or were they just to wire the money to a Cayman Islands account? I'd say the club knew who was sueing them. The fans and the media didn't, but again, that's irrelevant and doesn't mean the players weren't being open.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Stu - nice attempt but actively requesting to have your name withheld from the public domain is actively not being open.
MagicMe - i am not speculating on the other 8 players. It is fact that they have not used a winding up order to get paid.
CD - good post overall but heres one for you -Shelley didnt show up for training yesterday or today. Has he now breached his contract? Should we fine him?Quote:
They've upheld their end of the contract
Does nobody else find Shelleys statement today coupled with the Australian media report seriously suspect?
As I said, not telling the fans is utterly irrelevant. They were probably open with the club; that's all that matters.
Shelley isn't being paid; his contract is void. And how do you think you'll fine him anyway?!
Do you actually think things through, or do you exist in some kind of cloud of self-righteous indignation?
Nope. The club breached his contract by not paying him so he has no obligation to show up. A fine is just a wage deduction so it would be a frankly ridiculous threat to make given the circumstances.Quote:
Shelley didnt show up for training yesterday or today. Has he now breached his contract? Should we fine him?
Shelley's Australian story is bizarre but reading back it does whack of something weird. I'm not sure how big the newspaper that reported it is but the fact they didn't seek confirmation from the club itself is very odd.
He had an option of a year's contract, he wrote to Bohs seeking to exercise that option and Bohs haven't replied. if Bohs don't request him to turn up for trraining, and don't inform him of training venues/ties etc, then he's not the one breaking any thingQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Suspicious how? He has a deal lined up and doesn't want Bohs to use it as another excuse not ot pay him the money he's owed. Seems normal enough for meQuote:
Does nobody else find Shelleys statement today coupled with the Australian media report seriously suspect?
you need to put "to me" at the end of each of those sentences.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
it was just a question i threw out there. Relax.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
as i said, it was just a question i was thowing around my head. Relax and stop taking everything so seriously. And, given that your comment was a bit OTT and aggro, we can consider that as your satisfactory retribution for me stating that you hadnt a shred of decency.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
when you figure it out, get back to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
thing about bohs on newstalk shortly apparently.