Irish Sunderland fan here. Debate very interesting

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

So what you are claiming is 'human nature' is clearly not so. Rather - it's largely an Irish condition (and particularly in the extent to which it happens).

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i agree with you here steve. just ask one of our many new immigrants (non-nationals :o ) what they think of the whole situation. i spoke with a polish guy recently and he couldn't get over the whole thing of people boistriosly cheering against england at any sport (and in many cases expressing hatred / extreme dislike to england in general) but then swearing unbridled love to one of her club teams. the guy seriously thought it was one of the strangest things he had ever seen - he absolutely couldn't get his head around it!!

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

i agree with you here steve. just ask one of our many new immigrants (non-nationals :o ) what they think of the whole situation. i spoke with a polish guy recently and he couldn't get over the whole thing of people boistriosly cheering against england at any sport (and in many cases expressing hatred / extreme dislike to england in general) but then swearing unbridled love to one of her club teams. the guy seriously thought it was one of the strangest things he had ever seen - he absolutely couldn't get his head around it!!

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Did you explain to him that it didn't used to be like that at all and that the local league was once really, really popular but that a variety of things conspired to create the current state of affairs? Did you share what you knew of the reasons for it and recommend that he delve a little deeper into the phenomenon? Did you tell him to read Who Stole Our Game?

Or did you just agree that they were indeed all inexplicably mental and leave the poor man flummoxed? ;)

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

Did you explain to him that it didn't used to be like that at all and that the local league was once really, really popular but that a variety of things conspired to create the current state of affairs? Did you share what you knew of the reasons for it and recommend that he delve a little deeper into the phenomenon? Did you tell him to read Who Stole Our Game?

Or did you just agree that they were indeed all inexplicably mental and leave the poor man flummoxed? ;)

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well considering that he was relatively new to these shores and spoke fairly patchy english and my polish is hardly fluent the second appears to be slightly closer to my answer ;)

but the amazing thing is that for a league that is so badley supported most people have a fairly good knowledge of our game and are not slow to give there opinion weather its asked for or not

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Originally Posted by passerrby

but the amazing thing is that for a league that is so badley supported most people have a fairly good knowledge of our game and are not slow to give there opinion weather its asked for or not

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by the same token every dog in the street can tell you about man utd, chelsea and liverpool at this point. my wife can name most of the players ffs!!!

jeez lads look at what i found. This is embarassing

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Originally Posted by ollie

jeez lads look at what i found. This is embarassing

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Feckin hell, this guy does know that Keane hasn't got a permenant contract at Sunderland right?

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Originally Posted by ollie

jeez lads look at what i found. This is embarassing

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(rest of post pending confirmation)

he rang my doorbell a few days ago, and immediately chucked his "manifesto" (newsflash, crime isnt a good thing) in my letterbox and strolled in next door. Nice of him to alert me of the presence of his bloody tacky leaflet, if a business did that i'd chase them with a bat.

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Originally Posted by passerrby

but the amazing thing is that for a league that is so badley supported most people have a fairly good knowledge of our game and are not slow to give there opinion weather its asked for or not

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But only an uninformed, negative opinion PB.

The next time you hear someone slagging off the EL, press them on how much they actually know about the league. Who's top, who the best players are, who the main managers are, what the last game they saw was etc.

That'll cruelly expose the fact that they're talking from a basis of prejudice, not knowledge....

Jesus guys will you stop this constant whinging. This sort of thing happens in every country in the UK, it's not just an Irish thing. I'm sure it happens on the continent too, like say in San Marino. They probably support Italian sides there. Or in Liechtenstein, they probably support German or Swiss sides.

As I said in another thread the four most popular teams in Wales are Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool.

When you're close georaphically to a league structure of greater standard it's inevitable some fans will gravitate towards it.

I'm not saying it's a positive thing for the game but it's there, it's a fact and you just have to deal with it.

Steve, I know for a fact that lack of respect/knowledge towards local football is not a purely Irish thing. I'd say it's no more the case in Ireland than anywhere else to be honest, and it's certainly no more the case in Ireland than in Wales, of that I can be totally sure.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Kelly is an absolute idiot, he's a tool, he is an alcoholic, a terrible role model, he is an inept teacher, and he is running in the general election for Fine Gael.

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Back the highlighted accusations up with facts, retract them, or receive a permanent ban from Foot.ie. You have 24 hours.

post pending confirmation

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

, and he is running in the general election for Fine Gael..

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jesus thats a terrible thing to say about anyone

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Originally Posted by passerrby

jesus thats a terrible thing to say about anyone

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I was debating with myself whether to knock the final nail in the coffin with it or not :D

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Originally Posted by Cymro

Jesus guys will you stop this constant whinging. This sort of thing happens in every country in the UK, it's not just an Irish thing. I'm sure it happens on the continent too, like say in San Marino. They probably support Italian sides there. Or in Liechtenstein, they probably support German or Swiss sides.

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Simply untrue. Untrue firstly with regards the UK - pray tell what English teams do the Scots support.....? :confused:

Also untrue with regards continental Europe. Do the Belgians support French football ? Do the Dutch support German ? The Portuguese Spanish ? The Polish German or Russian ? The Swiss German ? I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

The only example you give to support your view here is San Marino. I mean really - San Marino ? :o A city-state entirely surrounded by Italy, populated by Italians, entirely dependent upon Italy, and with no senior footballing clubs of it's own. Shock horror - their population of 29,000 (less than Leitrim ! ) therefore tend to support Italian football. We'll who'd have thought it......

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Originally Posted by Cymro

As I said in another thread the four most popular teams in Wales are Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool.

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And likewise - as I said in a previous post, Wales is a unique example. Unique in that no other football nation in Europe, with a population larger than a small town, has so many of its senior clubs - and particularly its best ones - playing in another jurisdiction's league. Unique also in that, despite being one of the longest standign football jurisdictions in Europe, it has one of the youngest leagues of its own - youngee even than the leagues in some countries that only appeared in the 1990's. So Wales is indicative of nothing I'm afraid. For a better example, I'll refer you back to Scotland and the question of what teams in England do the Scots allegedly support.....?

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Originally Posted by Cymro

When you're close georaphically to a league structure of greater standard it's inevitable some fans will gravitate towards it.

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Perhaps "some". But certainly not the overwhelming majority, and the rest of Europe supports this view.

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Originally Posted by Cymro

Steve, I know for a fact that lack of respect/knowledge towards local football is not a purely Irish thing. I'd say it's no more the case in Ireland than anywhere else to be honest, and it's certainly no more the case in Ireland than in Wales, of that I can be totally sure.

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I've clearly shown how Irish people give uniquely low levels of support to their own football clubs, versus the rest of Europe (freak anomallies and countries no bigger than hamlets aside..). There is no way that this can be evidence of aything other than it being a peculiarly Irish thing.

And I've already tackled the anomally of Wales. Anyways - what do you expect for the biggest county in England......? ;)

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I've clearly shown how Irish people give uniquely low levels of support to their own football clubs, versus the rest of Europe (freak anomallies and countries no bigger than hamlets aside..). There is no way that this can be evidence of aything other than it being a peculiarly Irish thing.

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How do you explain it being so relatively recent, though? How did this peculiarly Irish trait manifest itself before the '70s? Did it lie dormant within the crowd at Drums matches?

The Irish football league scene is a freak anomaly and it is no bigger than a hamlet -- for millions of reasons. Why do you understand Wales and San Marino's special circumstances (history and size, respectively) and yet demand that the Irish leagues be compared to Portugal or Holland?

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

The Irish football league scene is a freak anomaly and it is no bigger than a hamlet -- for millions of reasons. Why do you understand Wales and San Marino's special circumstances (history and size, respectively) and yet demand that the Irish leagues be compared to Portugal or Holland?

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Fair point here. compare us to other nations with a population of 4 million (or 5.5 million depending on your viewpoint). i would guess that you may catch their eyes glancing at their larger neighbours footballing teams

I've lived in Oz & South Africa and they both have local leagues which get overlooked for the bright lights of the premiership.
That Said the repackaging of the A-League has brought a bit turnaround in OZ and the World Cup coming to SA has meant a greater interest in the local league.
So all we need to do is get the world cup in Ireland or persuade half a dozen businessmen to pump millions into franchise teams and the problem is solved ;)

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

Fair point here. compare us to other nations with a population of 4 million (or 5.5 million depending on your viewpoint). i would guess that you may catch their eyes glancing at their larger neighbours footballing teams

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If their local top-flight leagues had similar attendances to the Irish leagues, then yes.

My point is that there are a number of factors at work here and it's not good enough to just fold your arms and pout and say that the idea of Irish people following the English football is simply as ludicrous as it looks on paper.

We all speak English, don't we? (Even ultra-Irishman and definer of nationality NY Hoop seems to.) What do we tell all the Poles come over who are confused that the Irish have "chosen" the English language over Irish? Do we agree that we're all barmy, that we're all capricious linguistic gloryhunters OR do we explain a little bit of the history involved?

(I use this as an example of something that sounds black and white but is vastly more complex, not to suggest any kind of natural bond with Britland.)

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

If their local top-flight leagues had similar attendances to the Irish leagues, then yes.

My point is that there are a number of factors at work here and it's not good enough to just fold your arms and pout and say that the idea of Irish people following the English football is simply as ludicrous as it looks on paper.

We all speak English, don't we? (Even ultra-Irishman and definer of nationality NY Hoop seems to.) What do we tell all the Poles come over who are confused that the Irish have "chosen" the English language over Irish? Do we agree that we're all barmy, that we're all capricious linguistic gloryhunters OR do we explain a little bit of the history involved?

(I use this as an example of something that sounds black and white but is vastly more complex, not to suggest any kind of natural bond with Britland.)

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I see where you're coming from, but the linguistic comparison doesn't work.

The Irish 'chose' to speak English, because their own language was heavily oppressed since back as far as the Statutes of Kilkenny (1366), and because English became the language of economic and social advancement. Put simply - if you didn't speak Irish, you didn't get on in life (you were even considered poor and backward for speaking it). Also - once the country had made the linguistic shift wholesale for a number of generations, it was going to be extremely hard to shift it back.

Converserly, domestic football has not faced statutory oppression (though you'd wonder with the FAI sometimes..), and supporting Eircom League football does not stunt your economic or social advancement (quips aside, it doesn't...). Further - the decline in 'usage'/interest of Eircom League football is barely a generation old.

However - unwittingly, you have touched on a part of this issue that does compare to the EL. It's the part of the Irish psyche that is fiercely proud of being Irish, that is in many ways anti-English, that rants and rails at the dastardly antics of the English in Ireland over the years, that feels a strong tug to watch films like 'Michael Collins', 'In The Name of the Father' and 'The Wind That Shakes...'. But which still makes little or no genuine effort to learn, advance or protect the Irish language, that secretly sees it as a bit of pain in the arse, but which is knowingly embarassed about its attitude towarsd it so will come up with excuses for why they don't speak it (e.g. 'The way they teach tio at school puts everyone off it' , 'Sure no-one else speaks it', 'I speak a bit, but it's a very difficult language' etc etc). A bit like the secret embarassment many feel for not supporting Irtish football, and which they come up with numerous excuses to justify.

So ironically, the circumstances that lead to the decline of the Irish language are in no way similar to those that lead to the dedcline of Irish football, but the attuitude people have towards both since then are more similar than you might have at first thought.