Of course Keane has wasted chances but only a twit would deny he is a more reliable goalscorer than Long or any other forward option. He had a shocker all round in Slovakia and in his favour, Lloris had an exceptional game in each leg of the play off.
Of course. It's a catch 22. Long scored one and made another several chances for himself. Keane is not capable of creating those chances for himself. And it is not cut and dry that Keane would have scored those goals either. As someone already pointed out, they are not the kind of goals that he scores.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
They may not be "the kind of goals that he scores" but he certainly is deadly in one on one situations, as exemplified by this goal away to Macedonia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aRMRR2Wk7E#t=64
Even for goals that Long does score one on one, I've never seen him exhibit that level of calm in a one on one.
All very true. But I've come to the conclusion, as we start off another campaign under new management, that we just don't play football the way it should be played. Forget about the goals scored for or against us on Wednesday last. What about the 85 minutes or so of other football, where Serbia held the ball for as long as they wanted and we chased it around like we usually do. And then when we won possession back we gave it away just as quickly. A recipe for another two years of pure frustration if you ask me. That is unless Martin and Roy go back to the basics with out team as a whole (some lads are capable of playing possession football but too many are not). We have to eliminate the long ball game. I would start (as Real Madrid used to do when they suffered a damaging defeat) by starting from scratch again against a low ranked team (say League of Ireland) and build up the passing movements against them. And carry on from there with the opposition getting stronger every time. Of course there is going to be no time for that now, but that is what's needed. It is going to be a balancing act of trying to teach our lads how to possess and shield the ball while trying to get results at the same time. Martin and Roy were brilliant at it themselves, so if anyone can do it they can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Fair enough. Though I think you've taken my post more negatively than was intended. I just think his strengths don't get the same attention as his flaws by many here.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
But Stu, The ladies call him "Long Shane."
Walters got a goal to day so his shots per goal will drop from 10 to about 7.5
It was penalty though, something which distorts the figures significantly.
If you watch the game again you'll discover that this never happened. The final possession stats were 54%-46% in favour of Serbia, an edge they built up in the second half. In the first half, possession was about 60%-40% in Ireland's favour. People see what they want to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Mark, Rome wasn't built in a day as they say. For parts of games we are already playing better football than before. As Junior notably said here a few months ago, there will always be some huff and puff in our football.
Even in the Trapattoni era, often we would play 10-15 minutes of very good football and then we retreat into our shells and bend over for the opposition - regardless of quality - for the final 70-75 minutes.
No. Long scored one and had two set up for him by Hoolahan. Long did not set those chances up for himself. You can argue that Long's persistence set up his goal, but so too did Keane's persistence put us ahead against Sweden. Sweden, the same country that Long ballooned a great chance over the bar against in Stockholm and inexplicably failed to square a ball to an unmarked Keane when we were 1 down in the home leg. If it was Keane who fluffed his lines like Long has in the last year he'd be slaughtered here.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Let's not also forget the header from 8 yards at home to Austria at 2-1 up that Long hit straight at the keeper when he had 95pc of the goal to hit. It was as bad as Keane's headed misses against the Czechs and Slovaks at home, and Long is a far better header of the ball. If I was to be a dick I'd say that Long cost us the win at home to Austria by that miss and also by being a petulant tw@t and he cost is a draw at home to Sweden by not seeing a pass that you'd slaughter a LOI player for not seeing.
Here's a challenge for you: go to youtube and dig me out as many Long one on one goals you can find at any level in his whole career. Also go to youtube and dig me out any one on one situation only at international level by Keane ( I.e, ignoring any coolly dispatched one on one in your Mickey Mouse league) in the last couple of years.
Catch 22 is an unsolvable dilemma. I like to think there is a way of solving this dilemma. I'm not arguing for Keane over Long - not one bit - but I want to point out the huge degree of sophism you are employing.
Charlie D was bang on. Keane knows how to take those one on ones. Sure he makes a balls of some but he knows what to do in those situations. Nothing is "cut and dry" but they are the type of goals he does score these days. They probably weren't the type of goals he scored in his first 7 or 8 years as a pro when his one on ones were poor.
They are also the type of chances that Long has made a very nasty habit of not even remotely looking like scoring lately. I'd be more forgiving if he tried to round the keeper and fail but against Georgia he looked fazed by the amount of time he had and last Wednesday he badly failed to appreciate how much additional time he had. I think it's as close to "cut and dry" as one could imagine that Keane would have shown more composure.
And just for those who think I'm being harsh: I think Long is a super player. I love the guy and what he brings and I think he has more in him.
We often scored very early under Trap. We usually played OK until we went ahead. I think there is already a noticeable change in attitude and desire the do the right thing. As I said Rome wasn't built in a day and the baby steps taken by King and O'Neill are steps in the right direction. I hope we can keep the streetwiseness that Trap brought while looking to be more positive for longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
I am completely unconvinced by Keane's performances against teams like Germany and Poland over the last several years and his goalscoring record against them is not sufficient enough to start him based on that.
Shane Long brings so much more to the table. Keane has him on goals - you have got me dead to rights there but that's it. His overall contributions are not good enough and I think there are more tangible benefits to having Long, Doyle and others playing to their own strengths rather than trying to do mule work for Keane.
Long may miss sitters but his record of 11 in 44 or 1 in every 2.5 starts is fine and if he gets a run of starts in competitive games, I am confident the goals will come.
And I think you are doing a bit of a disservice to Long and not giving him enough credit for those two chances that were set up by Hoolahan. It was excellent acceleration, excellent positioning and excellent touch. We have already seen against Serbia the kind of understanding players like Long and Reid can create.
And also a bit harsh to blame Long for the Austrian draw. It was Trapattoni's fault for leaving on two lumbering forwards when we were holding on to a lead and the utter disconnect between Sammon and the rest of the team.
Don't think I'm being hard on Keane. He will be 34 when the qualifiers start, he is not playing in a good league, his Irish performances reflect that.
He will always be a threat against teams like Georgia, Gibraltar and maybe Scotland who have muck defenders. It was proven in that goal against Macedonia.
I think fundamentally, Long, Long/Hoolahan, Long/Reid or Long and Doyle/Walters is the way to go against Germany and Poland. The only thing Keane has on Long is a better goalscoring record but the likelihood of Keane scoring against Germany or Poland is not good enough to forego all we would get pursuing another option/s.
Keane's Irish performances while playing in a league that isn't good won him Irish player of the year just last weekQuote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
(Responding to TOWK) And I largely agreed with that opinion in a post I made earlier today.
I will continue to point out the sophism laden in your posts, much like a barrister in court shouting "objection". Make your point fairly and squarely but avoid trying to throw in nonsense like Keane doesn't score one on ones. As for admiring how Long found the space for those chances I think nobody would deny that Keane is a master at that business. If your main forward can't make a run for a midfielder then you'd wonder why he's your main forward.
You can't just use the Macedonia game as one example though. The France game would be a better example. I am debating the merits of Keane automatically starting games against teams like Germany. He would be first name on even my teamsheet against teams like Macedonia where his plus points would outweigh his minus points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'm not just using the Macedonia game as evidence. Check what I said.
Lloris made some great one on one stops against Keane, Duff and Whelan against France. Credit the goalkeeper. I'd say that it was the previous blocks by Lloris that prompted Keane to try and round him. Lloris is known as a "quick off his line keeper". Long looked hapless one on one against Georgia and Serbia. I think there is enough evidence to show that Keane is way more trustworthy in that situation than Long. Everything else I largely agree with.
I'm bowing out until tomorrow now, missing too much telly.
Bump.
Closed thread.