Curtis isn't from Derry. he's from Donegal.
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Curtis isn't from Derry. he's from Donegal.
Oops. If I were really clutching I'd say my comment was informed by the fact that he is English-born but it wasn't informed by that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
English born, English father, Irish mother. Lives in St Johnston just inside the border of Donegal. One of the stranger families I've ever come across.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I understand he is eligible for NI as well as ourselves (and England obviously), but not sure how exactly. Maybe it's through a grandparent that he's eligible for NI. Any idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Probably from that FIFA compromise rule where players born on the island of Ireland are eligible for both associations - oh wait, the IFA refused that!Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Not sure on that one. Doesn't make sense to me. To the best of my knowledge, the Curtis lads went to school in Derry. I'm not sure if that has any bearing on the matter, but can't imagine why it would.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
According to Grant Russell, five years of education before the age of 18 on the territory of the association concerned would do the trick for eligibility for one of the four British associations: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligib...=1#post1714460Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
A 2006 article from the International Sports Law Journal by Gerard-René de Groot on the relationship between the general legal nationality of a person and their "sporting nationality": https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/10/...t/de-groot.pdf
It might be of interest to some of you.
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1CO31L
Quote:
FIFA to look into changing nationality rules
FIFA is considering an overhaul of the rules which govern players’ eligibility for national teams, including a proposal which would allow them to switch allegiance in certain circumstances.
Victor Montagliani, head of FIFA's stakeholders' committee, said there were issues regarding the rules, which are aimed at preventing players from switching between national teams or representing countries they have no connection with.
"There are so many issues that have popped up over the years because the world is changing, immigration is changing," said the Canadian, who is president of the North, Central America and Caribbean federation (CONCACAF).
"There are nationality issues that pop up all over the world, in Africa, there are issues in Asia and CONCACAF, so its a good time to have a look at this and see if there are solutions, without hurting the integrity of the game."
At present, players who have played a competitive international for one team cannot switch to another national side even when they hold dual nationality.
The Cape Verde football federation has proposed this rule be relaxed in cases where the player has played only one or two games for his original national side but has no realistic chance of a recall
Players are only allowed to represent a country with which they have no blood connection if they have lived and played there for five years, but Montagliani said his committee would look into changing that period and possibly increasing it.
World soccer's ruling body could also look into a compensation scheme in cases where a player goes through the training system of one country and represents it a youth level before switching to another.
The worms...they're everywhere!Quote:
World soccer's ruling body could also look into a compensation scheme in cases where a player goes through the training system of one country and represents it a youth level before switching to another
Cape Verde?
So this is a ruse to get those Brazilians they wanted.
It's an absolute sham. If they relax the rules then what's the point of Intl football?
I think the protection for players - that being that only a senior competitive cap will tie you - is fair enough as it is, as associations are much less likely to throw away competitive caps willy-nilly in order to tie down players, given the obviously more serious nature of competitive games. Theoretically, you can still get some associations sticking a youngster on in the dying moments simply to tie him down and limit his options, but it's surely rare in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Interestingly, whilst wishing to relax that aspect, he wants to see the five-year residency stipulation in article 7(d) increased.
I came across the article below in the Belfast Telegraph (on the city/people of Derry's relationship with the IFA) and had meant to post it as it contains a few of the traditional clangers we've come to expect of the paper's reporting on eligibility/identity matters.
'Is baggage of Derrymen playing for Northern Ireland becoming thing of past?': http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-36225851.html
Oddly (for the Belfast Telegraph), the headline refers to "Derrymen", yet the opening paragraph then reverts to the use of "Londonderry" before returning to the use of "Derry" again in the rest of the piece. I assume this pattern adheres to the paper's style guide, but it does seem a bit silly and incongruous to refer to the city as "Londonderry" when discussing Derrymen.
And is there really any baggage? The likes of Fay Coyle, Liam Coyle, Jobby Crossan, Paddy McCourt and Danny Lafferty have all played for NI, as have many Derry youngsters like Eugene Ferry and others. Often, it's a case of them accepting an opportunity for the advancement of their careers whilst they may not strictly identify nationally with the team. (That's not "baggage; it's just culture/national identification.) Derry people have always understood that. I don't think anyone was calling these players "turncoats" or anything of the sort for accepting IFA call-ups.
The author, Orla Bannon, goes on to make some odd assertions:
Unpalatable?... :confused: Really? For whom? Personally, I'd have relished the mouth-watering prospect of a play-off against NI and I suspect many of our fans would similarly have looked forward to a fiery derby clash to secure World Cup qualification. I'm sure many NI fans would feel the same given the (misplaced) grudge many harbour against the FAI over the fact northern-born Irish nationalists have opted to play for the FAI instead of the IFA. What would be the view of posters here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Orla Bannon
A "new low" in what way? Some denialism going on here, I think; nationalist-community players who play for NI already opt out of observing 'GSTQ', either by looking sheepish and uncomfortable, by ducking their heads or by full-on "eat me up, ground!" squatting.Quote:
Just imagine it - the Republic's northern players 'taking a knee' at Windsor Park during God Save The Queen. It would have been a new low, even by our standards.
Who does she mean by "our" and which "already-low" standards is she referring to? Do I sense a subtle dig directed towards James McClean there?
Hmm, not quite. Who you can decide to play for is dependent, first and foremost, on your nationality. If you're an Irish national, you can make yourself available to play for Ireland (so long as you otherwise satisfy the relevant eligibility criteria). If you're a British citizen with a territorial connection to the north through birth, descent or residence/education, you can make yourself available to play for NI. An Irish national from Donegal who is not a legal British national - someone like the DUP's Willie Hay, for example - and who has no territorial, familial or residential/educational connection to the six counties, cannot opt to play for NI, even if they may identify as culturally British and unionist.Quote:
We live on an island where depending on your beliefs and allegiances, you can decide which country you play for.
That old chestnut again. I've the greatest respect for Liam Coyle, his past footballing abilities and his contribution to football in Derry, but that's no reason to rely on him as an authority on eligibility! There was no right to switch association once when he played – it was formally legislated for by FIFA in 2004 - but the choice still would have been there for northern-born Irish nationals to opt for the FAI in the first place before becoming cap-tied to the IFA. Obviously, awareness of this remains limited.Quote:
"The North has lost out, no doubt about it," says Derry City legend Liam Coyle, who earned one cap for Northern Ireland.
"It's all changed now. In my day we had no choice, the likes of Felix Healy, Terry Harkin and myself, but many young nationalists now are going to opt for the Republic.
Interesting. I hadn't been aware of that. Something worthwhile in the piece at least!Quote:
The largest Republic of Ireland supporters' club outside of London is based not in Dublin, Cork or Limerick, but in Derry.
It currently boasts more than 450 members and with the city having such strong ties to the current international team, interest has never been higher, so much so that membership is closed for the time being.
International eligibility has always been linked to nationality. As Ángel María Villar, FIFA's former legal committee chairman, said in 2011: "National identity ... is the foundation of national teams."Quote:
McClean and Northern Ireland's Lafferty grew up on the same streets in Creggan, are good friends, yet play for different countries, a situation facilitated by Fifa's ruling linking nationality to international eligibility.
The IFA challenged it and failed in 2010, but they aren't giving up the fight and are investing in Derry like never before.
There was no "ruling" to introduce this as a recent concept. It has been ever-present for decades, since international football was standardised.
Does she not get that Ireland is the country of birth for tens of thousands of people born in Derry?Quote:
Coaches go around to schools [in Derry] encouraging young players to play for the country of their birth.
Anyway, hands off our kids! I thought the IFA opposed the aggressive approach... :rolleyes:
What's worse is that her name is Orla Bannon.
Wee turncoat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
The article is quite complimentary about Derry peoples' generosity of spirit and tolerance, perhaps even overgenerous.
That is, until we get to Jim Magilton and his negative vibes, contradicting the tone of the article.
What obstacles is mean spirited Jim referring to, that Derry wans put up to prevent the prime of their footballing youth in their pursuit of happiness?
"People want to put up obstacles but all we're doing is selecting players if they are good enough and usually they are delighted,"
Maybe Jim is referring to the "abuse, intimidation and threats" that Gary McAllister was going on about that time he was talking through his derrière?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
For me and most people I know who go to NI games regularly. I don't find the high likelihood of public disorder around the games mouth-watering.Quote:
Originally Posted by DI
Some would, but see above. Obviously my sample is self-selecting to some extent but on the other hand it's a lot of people. Not everyone who agrees with you albeit for the wrong reason has a grudge btw...Quote:
I'm sure many NI fans would feel the same given the (misplaced) grudge many harbour against the FAI over the fact northern-born Irish nationalists have opted to play for the FAI instead of the IFA
Don't you live there? Surprised you didn't know that [about the Derry RoISSC]. Still, if they aren't allowing new membership...possibly a little paranoid? ;)Quote:
Interesting. I hadn't been aware of that. Something worthwhile in the piece at least!
We've played each other recently and the only "public disorder" was Northern Ireland fans singing sectarian songs around the stadium while locals ignored them.
I know it's not universal, but it's not an insignificant minority either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Ha, I'm not a member and hadn't looked into it since moving back. I assume they aren't accepting new members as they wouldn't be able to cater for everybody's ticket expectations, travel demands and that sort of thing with an unlimited number of members. Just a guess, but that's the sense I got from the way the piece frames it.Quote:
Don't you live there? Surprised you didn't know that [about the Derry RoISSC]. Still, if they aren't allowing new membership...possibly a little paranoid? ;)
Possibly he's a little paranoid? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
There'd be rather more tension at a qualifier in Belfast than at effectively a friendly in Dublin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Like NI society/ politics writ small- a series of permanently belligerent large minorities ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Guilty as charged on the paranoia- getting intimidated out of your home. school etc. tends to have that effect...
I was only slegging. I appreciate there would be heightened tensions and resulting security and public order concerns surrounding a "winner takes all" affair.
There is nothing friendly about the Carling Cup my friend...
Here's an article (a few months old) that I came across yesterday (through a link in this piece on Niall Ó Donnghaile's mention in the Seanad of James McClean in respect of partitionism and the Irishness of northerners) with some interesting comments by an IFA coach named Shane McCullagh on the matter of eligibility. McCullough has had an academic study published on the topic.
He admits that the IFA were fully aware of Darron Gibson's desire to represent the FAI, but continued to select him in spite of that, essentially in the hope of winning Gibson over:
McCullagh goes on to discuss Niall McGinn's choice to play for the IFA being pragmatic and career-oriented despite the player being an Ireland supporter. He also mentions the anthem and stadium issue:Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsJoe.ie
He went on to speak generally on the eligibility dispute and what the IFA can possibly do to ensure more players from the north might wish to play for them, but I found one of his comments to be rather telling in terms of his moral and political biases:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane McCullough
I disagree profoundly with that. I think it would be a terrible gesture politically and ethically; it would be to say to northern-born Irish nationals that they weren't wanted and would be to differentiate them through total exclusion from all other Irish nationals simply on account of their place of birth. Why would or should northern-born Irish nationals be treated by the FAI as second-class citizens, or effectively as non-citizens even?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane McCullough
The piece also features the following image:
https://m0.sportsjoe.ie/wp-content/u...7963726388.jpg
It's a photo of the NI team lined up before their game against us in the Carling Nations Cup in 2011. However, the band appear to be playing and as not all the players are standing to attention, I assume 'Amhrán na bhFiann' is being played. Note the stances of Warren Feeney (number 10) and Steven Davis (number 8) in particular; the former has his head bowed towards the ground, whilst the latter has his hands on his hips, contrary to what would be usual or traditional anthem protocol. Maybe these are the "low standards" to which Orla Bannon was referring! :p
In seriousness though, it obviously bothered no-one at the time, nor does it bother me now. I bring it up, however, to ponder whether the likes of Gregory Campbell would express outrage at these lads for failing to stand to attention for the Irish national anthem in the same way they vented fury at James McClean for disengaging from a rendition of 'GSTQ'. For some reason, I think not. :rolleyes:
And they're not wearing poppies. I'm drafting my letter to the Belfast Telegraph as I type this.
Sammy Clingan (6) and Jonny Gorman (17) are from nationalist or Catholic backgrounds and pay much more respect to the anthem. I think they are the only two starters from such a background that day for NI (unsure about Blayney or McAuley though). Niall McGinn and Liam Boyce came in as substitutes.
McAuley sings 'GSTQ', so I've always assumed he isn't from a nationalist background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
*Disagree. The Anthem's a problem, but hardly one that people don't want to talk about. I'd prefer we had an alternative, and have suggested variously on here; but the idea that Niall McGinn (say), let alone someone like Paddy Barnes would enthuse for it is fanciful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane McCullough
There was a suggestion. It was clearly very unpopular with NI fans. Its shortcomings (cost, accessibility, facilities etc.) were all widely discussed at the time. And as per point above, it's fanciful that Nationalist potential fans would have welcomed a white elephant miles from mainly Unionist Lisburn town center any more than they did Windsor Park.Quote:
Maybe for some as well, there was an opportunity to move away from Windsor Park and that wasn't done for a number of reasons.
The Nationalist Community's supposed problems with Windsor are rooted in prejudice based on events long ago. I acknowledge them but they were never seriously a veto on where to site/ redevelop the stadium. At the trivial level, Glentoran or Coleraine fans dislike Linfield's advantages as much as Cliftonville or Derry's do.Quote:
Basically now, the IFA have moved lock, stock and barrel into Windsor Park and all the 'where it is' and the attachment to Linfield maybe doesn't send out the right message to people from a nationalist community
Heh, unsubtle whataboutery alert by your standards ;) Still, thanks for not dragging out Rory Patterson's beer-gut from your Anthem photo albumQuote:
Originally Posted by DI
I don't quite share others' fascination with which foot big G kicks with (except that when the ball's anywhere near either in the 6 yard box you're usually talking imminent own-goal). He's from a Glens village so hillbilly people from Larne ridicule it. I know many McAuley's thereabouts, mostly Catholics. His other name is Gerard etc etc.
I'm reminded of those bogeyman stories we use to mercilessly embellish in order to frighten the younger kids. Apparently up North, the bogeymen still lurks about, shape shifting over time into one who wears a FAI blazer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Heh, in what way is it whataboutery on my part? I'm simply pointing out a likely hypocrisy on the part of Gregory and the like because they cry so loudly about it any time James McClean has the "audacity" not to conform to their ideal. I doubt they'd direct the same bile the way of Feeney and Davis. I'm not deflecting from any difficult issue for myself or hypocrisy on my own part; to the contrary, I defend the right of players to opt out of anthem renditions, irrespective of who the player is (be it James McClean, Sammy Morrow, Steven Davis, Warren Feeney, Adem Ljajić, Abbas Suan, Walid Badir or Beram Kayal) or what the anthem is (be it 'GSTQ', 'AnbhF', 'Bože pravde' or 'Hatikvah'). If you think I am guilty of avoiding an issue that I ought to be confronting, feel free to point it out. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Luckily for you, I don't have photos of pot-bellied Patterson; sure they wouldn't fit on my hard-drive!
And it's not so much a fascination with McAuley; more so just idle chitchat since the question was asked. McAuley's middle-name is actually Gerald, if that's of any significance. What do the people from Larne ridicule; his OG-scoring abilities?
@DI- I'm suggesting rather that you're reviving a non-issue, or at least a non-news story. Gregory Campbell winding up Fenians, basically. As you say no-one really cares that Warren Feeney belts out six verses of an anthem or Steven Davis gets bored and scratches his arse.
Corrected on McAuley's full name, apologies. My point was merely that there are hints to both unionism and nationalism in his background.
His home village gets teased locally for people sounding a bit culchie, basically. When NI players do media interviews, you might think Davis (captain), Evans (best player) and McAuley (oldest, proper job pre-football) would be prominent. But Davis has an even stronger accent than McAuley and Evans can get tongue-tied. So you hear Josh Magennis enthusing about the Dublin training camp because the hotel, training pitch and golf course are all close enough to be reached by buggy without having to get fully dressed first ;)
I think the main problem nationalist had with Windsor is the surrounding area. At the it was being planned time my preference would have been a new site in Belfast (Perhaps the one suggested on the Ormeau Road)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
In the event they went with staying at Windsor but knocked down the surrounding area. That was probanly the best idea of them all. It's a great site for a stadium if it the walk through the village can be avoided.
For as long as I can remember (I started secondary school in the area in 1973), Windsor Park has been surrounded to the West and South by industrial/ trading estates, to the East by the Lisburn Road with a large student and other transient population, and only to the North by the working-class Unionist 'Village' area. There's easy main road access via Lisburn Road/ Tate's Avenue from the East/ City, and via Boucher Road from the Country/ Motorway.Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
So I think that for many the problem is symbolic. The situation of and access to the ground are less important.
I think the Ormeau Park suggested site was at the Ravenhill End and there wasn't enough space. Same applied to May's Field by the train station and the bus depot site at Glengall StreetQuote:
At the it was being planned time my preference would have been a new site in Belfast (Perhaps the one suggested on the Ormeau Road)
See above. That said, I have some sympathy for local residents on big match evenings ;)Quote:
In the event they went with staying at Windsor but knocked down the surrounding area. That was probably the best idea of them all. It's a great site for a stadium if it the walk through the village can be avoided
I must protest, mister. It was Orla Bannon who done it, talking about "low standards" and all that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I sensed she was taking a subtle dig at James McClean. Even the non-paranoid could perceive that!
I do have to admit that I mock imitated Davis' accent last time I heard him speak in an interview. :oQuote:
His home village gets teased locally for people sounding a bit culchie, basically. When NI players do media interviews, you might think Davis (captain), Evans (best player) and McAuley (oldest, proper job pre-football) would be prominent. But Davis has an even stronger accent than McAuley and Evans can get tongue-tied.
Could you define what you mean by symbolic? I'm not really sure what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
When I'm talking about reluctance to go to Windsor Park and the surrounding area I'm referring to going there for any reason, be it a boxing match or whatever.
If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols
For many Nationalists I've discussed it with over the years, Windsor Park symbolises many of the failings of the NI state(let). Institutionalised discrimination, lack of civil rights etc. as they see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
Some, like you, refer the surrounding area. As I detailed above for non-Belfast residents, most of that surrounding area (on three sides of the ground) is industrial/ trading estates, and mixed/ transient population housing. Visitors to the ground can walk or drive there along main roads that avoid the working-class Unionist Village area.
Not directly, no. Broadly I don't expect Nationalist fans to support NI, though any who do are welcome. Because, obviously, those fans tend to support RoI.Quote:
If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols
I'd prefer non-NI fans neither
a) blamed the cauldron of sectarian hatred and its surrounding seething mass of Billy Boy housing for their non-support. (Honest about their obvious bias, in other words), or
b) gave undue weight to other, non-specifically local factors such as traffic access to inner-city sports stadia (seeking to deny that bias in many cases).
I would have thought the same, which is why I've wondered about the merits of the 'be more inclusive' argument - the argument that a more inclusive anthem and other aspects of the team/set up would make supporters and players and from nationalist backgrounds more likely to support/play for the IFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
I don't really see how it gels with the 'I'm Irish, ROI is my team, it's that simple' position.
I'd say 'being more inclusive/ welcoming' makes a good default position for various reasons, including commercial.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
As I usually say, the main target for this outreach isn't Nationalists but people who aren't instinctively hostile to NI, but for whatever reasons didn't want to watch games at Windsor. Garden Center Unionists, LetsGetAlongIsts, call them what you will.
I want a different anthem to make NI distinct from England, Britain, Liechtenstein etc. I'd prefer if our flag didn't have Mrs Windsor's crown on it and all ;)
There is a bit of gentle doublethink going on here. Nationalist commentators want the NI team and its symbolism to be more inclusive, but not too much so- just in case the team becomes both welcoming AND successful and attracts loads of kids from Derry, Newry and Andytown...
Technically you are right about this, but almost all the bars etc are on the Lisburn Road side of the ground, which means an inevitable walk up Tates Avenue (usually after dark during the football season). This is improving rapidly as the gentrification of the area continues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Just because there has been a dramatic improvement in this regard since the 90s doesn't mean it isn't a problem anymore (Very little of it in Windsor Park itself these days but it is an issue around Belfast on match days). But the improvement in the ground is both noticeable and welcome in equal measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Happy to agree with 95% of that again. Given the institution that flag represented and how it mistreated a massive section of our society, a great many of whom are still alive and well, i find it particularly objectionable that it is still used for anything in this day and age. Whilst the treatment inflicted on the Catholic population by the old Stormont obviously don't compare to the evils of slavery, what happened to my parents and their parents here was still disgusting, and I do feel that flag needs to be drummed out of our society in the same way the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia is being stamped out of society in the former Confederate States. From time to time I see middle class getalongerist kids carrying it and the mind boggles that they don't even realise how divisive a symbol it is.Quote:
I'd say 'being more inclusive/ welcoming' makes a good default position for various reasons, including commercial.
As I usually say, the main target for this outreach isn't Nationalists but people who aren't instinctively hostile to NI, but for whatever reasons didn't want to watch games at Windsor. Garden Center Unionists, LetsGetAlongIsts, call them what you will.
I want a different anthem to make NI distinct from England, Britain, Liechtenstein etc. I'd prefer if our flag didn't have Mrs Windsor's crown on it and all
But that's a problem across our society, and I certainly don't see a football association as being high on the priority list of institutions where that particular nettle needs to be grasped.
I can't imagine that is going to be a problem in those areas any time soon. It seems to me no more likely that kids from ROI supporting families will switch to supporting the north because they have improved their image, than it would be for the kids of Liverpool fans to start supporting Everton if they replaced Goodison Park or something.Quote:
There is a bit of gentle doublethink going on here. Nationalist commentators want the NI team and its symbolism to be more inclusive, but not too much so- just in case the team becomes both welcoming AND successful and attracts loads of kids from Derry, Newry and Andytown..
In my experience (and that of my children) the football team you support is just about the last thing left that is chosen for you by your father before you are born, over which neither you nor your mother gets any say whatsoever. I suspect it will be the last relic of the patriarchy still going long after NI has ceased to exist.