Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Not sure about this, but isn't eligibility at schoolboy level dictated by where a player goes to school rather than his nationality?

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Dale Gorman, a St. Eunan's Letterkenny student, seems to contradict this through his appearances for the Northern Ireland schoolboy team. I'm sure there are others who are schooled in England who have also played for IFA (and probably the FAI too - when we think of James Wallace and Gerard Kinsella). Possibly it used to be the case... or maybe it never was. Perhaps it was one of those myths that got out of hand.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

If you seem to draw some comfort from believing that Danny was under a similar misapprehension to yourself, then good for you. However, I wouldn't confuse a minor, and quickly corrected, misunderstanding in the last few days over an inter-associational agreement, with your lengthy bewilderment over the last few months. Perhaps Danny can enlighten you as to the truth?

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Clarified my confusion here. An inter-associational agreement would fall foul of FIFA's rules as it would impinge upon the right of players not party to such an agreement to switch association once. I wouldn't envisage an internal, informal declaration like NB seeks to have any problems in relation to the statutes, however.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Clarified my confusion here.

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Sorry I missed that Danny. I can just imagine AB's sense of deflation. ;)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

An inter-associational agreement would fall foul of FIFA's rules as it would impinge upon the right of players not party to such an agreement to switch association once. I wouldn't envisage an internal, informal declaration like NB seeks to have any problems in relation to the statutes, however.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Dale Gorman, a St. Eunan's Letterkenny student, seems to contradict this through his appearances for the Northern Ireland schoolboy team. I'm sure there are others who are schooled in England who have also played for IFA (and probably the FAI too - when we think of James Wallace and Gerard Kinsella). Possibly it used to be the case... or maybe it never was. Perhaps it was one of those myths that got out of hand.

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I'd imagine Gorman qualifies for NI underage teams but not schools teams.

Thanks for finding that Danny. I've long suspected such an agreement would fall foul of FIFA.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I'd imagine Gorman qualifies for NI underage teams but not schools teams.

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That is possible, but I think it unlikely. I'm inclined to believe that there is no distinction made, but I could be wrong. Now, where are the player eligibility rules for schools teams? :)

The IFA's website lists their squad profiles thus: "Senior, U21, U19, U17, U18 Schooboys, U16 Schoolboys, U15 Schoolboys" and this is their U16 Schooboys profile.
Patrick McNair played for the NISFA teams while being schooled in England.
Here's a source: http://www.nisfa.co.uk/Under_16.aspx

Interesting to see that Conor Thompson never went to school in NI, ever.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

If you seem to draw some comfort from believing that Danny was under a similar misapprehension to yourself, then good for you. However, I wouldn't confuse a minor, and quickly corrected, misunderstanding in the last few days over an inter-associational agreement, with your lengthy bewilderment over the last few months. Perhaps Danny can enlighten you as to the truth?

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Actually I had 'no lengthy bewilderment', except in the obtuse terms it was proposed pretty pointlessly by its originator. Though I am surprised you have chosen to speak for him. Surely he's capable of repeating the same tedious point for infinity?

Or were you anticipating yet another third party's 'sense of deflation'?
;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

James McClean cared about such matters - it dictated his "comfort" level.

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Perhaps it was related to these particular 'dreams' you keep referring to...

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Although, judging by some of the friends he keeps around HMP Maghaberry, I'd have thought some people might not be overly comfortable in young James's company.

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If you'd bothered to read his thread on here recently, you'd have seen that the 'Uachtarán na hÉireann' clearly thinks differently...

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Actually I had 'no lengthy bewilderment', except in the obtuse terms it was proposed pretty pointlessly by its originator. Though I am surprised you have chosen to speak for him. Surely he's capable of repeating the same tedious point for infinity?

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If you find simple straightforward ideas, succinctly expressed in short and snappy single line sentences, confusing...then I can't say I'm surprised.

(look at that alliteration!)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Clarified my confusion here. An inter-associational agreement would fall foul of FIFA's rules as it would impinge upon the right of players not party to such an agreement to switch association once. I wouldn't envisage an internal, informal declaration like NB seeks to have any problems in relation to the statutes, however.

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This may need further discussion.
If an association was to suddenly request players at the age of 18 to take an oath of allegiance, then shouldn't that oath of allegiance also state that this in no way impinges upon the player's rights to change his mind according to the FIFA statutes, which kinda defeats the purpose of the oath.
I'm swaying towards an Ardee Bhoy type position and my world hasn't collapsed :)

If 2 associations were permitted by FIFA to make an agreement, then that agreement would have to be included in the statutes to make it CAS proof.
And if it were included in the statutes then would the terms not have to apply to all similar situations, just like article 6?

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Originally Posted by The Fly

Sadly however, I doubt that he provides an insight into the mindset of your typical NI fan. Perhaps NB can gives us an update on that?

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I'm not so sure there is such a thing as 'your typical NI fan' The Fly.

Such terminology is born from typical stereotyping.

Northern Ireland fans, like Republic Of Ireland fans, come from a variety of backgrounds and have a huge array and diversity of opinions.

The thing all Northern Ireland fans have in common is that they are very patriotic.

How that patriotism is expressed is at the core of change.

I sense a growing number of our fans becoming mature and confident enough to understand that expressing 'Northern Irishness' at a Northern Ireland match does not dilute one's Britishness.

I have met many Northern Ireland fans on my travels - they range from being total arseholes to lifelong friends.

The Anthem will change - not to appease our detractors.

Will that make a difference in support from the nationalist/republican community? - I don't think so.

The very nature of nationalism/republicanism is that it wants to see Northern Ireland no longer exist - it would therefore seem to me that no matter what changes are made by the IFA it would be difficult for a nationalist/ republican to support Northern Ireland - especially as they can support the Republic Of Ireland.

That certainly doesn't exercise me - in fact, I find it perfectly logical.

Many Northern Ireland fans, and indeed the IFA, got it all wrong on the eligibility issue.

The challenge now is to make the best of a bad job - and prosper.

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Originally Posted by geysir

If an association was to suddenly request players at the age of 18 to take an oath of allegiance, then shouldn't that oath of allegiance also state that this in no way impinges upon the player's rights to change his mind according to the FIFA statutes, which kinda defeats the purpose of the oath.

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No one has suggested an 'oath of allegiance'.

Nothing I have proposed impinges on any player rights under the FIFA Statutes.

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Originally Posted by geysir

This may need further discussion.
If an association was to suddenly request players at the age of 18 to take an oath of allegiance, then shouldn't that oath of allegiance also state that this in no way impinges upon the player's rights to change his mind according to the FIFA statutes, which kinda defeats the purpose of the oath.
I'm swaying towards an Ardee Bhoy type position and my world hasn't collapsed :)

If 2 associations were permitted by FIFA to make an agreement, then that agreement would have to be included in the statutes to make it CAS proof.
And if it were included in the statutes then would the terms not have to apply to all similar situations, just like article 6?

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A player would still be entitled to switch from the IFA to the FAI if he liked. (And from the FAI to the IFA if he liked; I don't think NB has any issue with players switching to the IFA after having first represented their association of preference, except for when that player is Alex Bruce.) NB wishes to put his faith in the honesty of players. They're asked to declare where their allegiance ultimately lies, they declare and, from there, the IFA decides if they're interested in selecting them. (Isn't that more or less what Bruce did though?) No need for any formal oath with quasi-legal/contractual obligations or anything. Of course, such a system would be vulnerable to bad faith, but NB is clearly prepared to accept that in the hope that most, or at least some, players will be honest rather than see the IFA do nothing and continue to select under-age players who might harbour hopes of ultimately playing for the FAI. There are merely practical issues, but that's the IFA's business. I've no issue with it in principle and don't see how it would fall foul of the rules.

I'm just thinking of the furore last year over the FFF potentially introducing racial quotas; certainly, they'd have defied the spirit of the game and maybe FIFA/UEFA would have persuaded the FFF to drop the idea on that basis if it ever looked like taking off, but I'm wondering would they specifically have fallen foul of the eligibility rules/articles 5 to 8? Associations aren't under any obligation to select/train anyone they don't want to select, after all.

'The very nature of nationalism/republicanism is that it wants to see Northern Ireland no longer exist - it would therefore seem to me that no matter what changes are made by the IFA it would be difficult for a nationalist/ republican to support Northern Ireland - especially as they can support the Republic Of Ireland'. Not Brazil

NB, Taking your point, people from republicans come from a variety of backgrounds ranging from the extremists who advocate violence, to those who are realistic enough to realise that a united Ireland will never occur. It could certainly be argued that it is the political aspect of the IFA as well as the extreme nature of many of its fans that continues to alienate Nationalists.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Such terminology is born from typical stereotyping.
.... The very nature of nationalism/republicanism is that it wants to see Northern Ireland no longer exist

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No - you're wrong. Do you actually know any nationalists? Most who identify themselves as such don't give a flying f*ck about the status of the northern irish state (or soccer team). It is utterly inconsequential to them.

Can you back-up your statement? How many nationalists have personally told you they want to see northen ireland no longer exist?

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Originally Posted by gastric

It could certainly be argued that it is the political aspect of the IFA as well as the extreme nature of many of its fans that continues to alienate Nationalists.

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What exactly do you mean by 'the political aspect of the IFA'?

What exactly do you mean by 'the extreme nature of many of it's fans?

I don't think that Northern Ireland fans are any more 'extreme' than anybody else's fans - whatever extreme means.

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Originally Posted by rellik

No - you're wrong. Do you actually know any nationalists? Most who identify themselves as such don't give a flying f*ck about the status of the northern irish state (or soccer team). It is utterly inconsequential to them.

Can you back-up your statement? How many nationalists have personally told you they want to see northen ireland no longer exist?

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Really?

I know lots and lots of Nationalists and Republicans - I work with, and socialise with, many Nationalists and Republicans.

All of them, who are proudly Nationalist or Republican, would like to see a 'United' 32 County Irish State - that means there would be no Northern Ireland.

Read the manifestos of the SDLP and PSF - then look at the numbers who vote for them.

Your ludicrous post is akin to saying that Unionists don't care about the Union.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Now, where are the player eligibility rules for schools teams? :)

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That's a very good question.

The Northern Ireland Schools' Football Association Rules state:

"A pupil may represent the Association in International matches in accordance with the rules of the Schools' Association Football International Board"

However, the Schools' Association Football International Board website does not provide details of said rules.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What exactly do you mean by 'the political aspect of the IFA'?

What exactly do you mean by 'the extreme nature of many of it's fans?

I don't think that Northern Ireland fans are any more 'extreme' than anybody else's fans - whatever extreme means.

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I don't want to get dragged into an argument with you, but the extremity of comment on OWC is an example of what alienates many Nationalists. On the political aspect of the IFA, I think this has been commented on many times on this thread.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

If you find simple straightforward ideas, succinctly expressed in short and snappy single line sentences, confusing...then I can't say I'm surprised.

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Really?
Where and when were these?

Clearly your memory doesn't stretch back as far as two days ago...