Eligibility Rules, Okay

You should have read my post before sending the tweet hit squad out against O'Donnell :)
It was obvious that the original article was the Indo's

Fair play to king what a spanner Michael o Neill is. I know slot of lads don't want Noel king involved in the underage setup but I would gladly contribute to a fund to keep him on building bridges for our northern brothers who have lived under British rule

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/sta...88587467399169

His response on Twitter above.

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He blames the mention of the Good Friday Agreement in the Belfast Telegraph article on it being a re-write of his original, but he mentions the Agreement in the original Indo piece too, so that explanation doesn't quite stack up. From the original piece in the Indo:

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Originally Posted by Dan McDonnell

The IFA have been frustrated by a knock-on consequence of the Good Friday Agreement which means any player born north of the border can opt to throw in his lot with the FAI. James McClean, Darron Gibson and Shane Duffy are high-profile examples.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Interesting to learn his aul man is a Dub. Had assumed McEneff was a northern name (which it still probably is but via Dublin in this case).

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It's derived from Mac Conduibh and is a variation of other Anglicised surnames like McAnuff, McEniff (as you can probably guess) and even McEndoo. It's a Connacht surname although I think variants would be more common in the north (especially around Leitrim and Sligo) rather than in the south of the country.

Bonus trivia: The Donegal GAA manager who won the All-Ireland in 1992 was a Brian McEniff.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

He blames the mention of the Good Friday Agreement in the Belfast Telegraph article on it being a re-write of his original, but he mentions the Agreement in the original Indo piece too, so that explanation doesn't quite stack up. From the original piece in the Indo:

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Send him a tweet saying that it was a knock on consequences of free state irredentism? :D

For the most part players switching from one side to another is a knock on consequence of the GFA,
but not as O'Donnell may think. He may think the GFA gave the legitimacy to the FIFA dual eligibility, one that did not exist before and of course that's an erroneous belief.
Nevertheless, the cease fire followed by the GFA and the referendum changed much in the way people thought about their national identity and this had a knock on effect on northern nationalist footballers, a growing awareness came about that yes players who wanted this to happen could make it happen and the timeline of player declarations supports that contention.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Send him a tweet saying that it was a knock on consequences of free state irredentism? :D

For the most part players switching from one side to another is a knock on consequence of the GFA,
but not as O'Donnell may think. He may think the GFA gave the legitimacy to the FIFA dual eligibility, one that did not exist before and of course that's an erroneous belief.
Nevertheless, the cease fire followed by the GFA and the referendum changed much in the way people thought about their national identity and this had a knock on effect on northern nationalist footballers, a growing awareness came about that yes players who wanted this to happen could make it happen and the timeline of player declarations supports that contention.

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It's bound to have been a psychological factor, certainly, although I still think the primary motivator behind the increased number of northern declarations for the FAI in latter times was FIFA's introduction of an allowance to switch association once since 2004. In effect, players who had represented the IFA at youth level were thereafter no longer cap-tied for life. The overwhelming majority of northern declarations for the FAI have been post-2004.

And I've been on hiatus from tweeting since October; I plan on keeping it that way for another while yet. :)

Although I do see Stutts has been in touch with McDonnell for correctional purposes: https://twitter.com/Stuttgart1988/st...92308536479745

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

It's bound to have been a psychological factor, certainly, although I still think the primary motivator behind the increased number of northern declarations for the FAI in latter times was FIFA's introduction of an allowance to switch association once since 2004. In effect, players who had represented the IFA at youth level were thereafter no longer cap-tied for life. The overwhelming majority of northern declarations for the FAI have been post-2004.

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I take your point.
Even if it was Gibson and Wilson who switched to the FAI before the 2004 rule change, who were the main pioneers and led the way for others in regards for choice, the 2004 rule change meant many more young ni born players were not bound to the IFA by being capped at underage competitive level.

Another effect of the GFA was that it delivered the political argument of irredentism to the dustbin and it could not be used with any legitimacy in any negotiations with FIFA. Although the IFA had recognised and accepted pre-GFA, the possibility and the reality that ni born players could declare for the FAI, I'd be pretty confident come 2007 they would have been loudly bleating about the injustice that one bigger country could dish out citizenship willy nilly to another smaller territory and grab their best footballers.
And in subsequent years the fact of the GFA referendum approval, took a good bit of steam out argument re NI born's right to automatic dual citizenship and exercise their right to avail of FIFA rules. All we are left with these days is Michael O'Neill doing a Roy Keane bad hangover impression.

Belfast's Rory Hale expresses his delight at receiving his clearance and call-up to the under-21s: https://twitter.com/Roryh96/status/841990612429733889

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Originally Posted by Rory Hale

After a long frustrating 18 months I'm finally cleared and im over the moon to receive my first call up for my country.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

It's derived from Mac Conduibh and is a variation of other Anglicised surnames like McAnuff, McEniff (as you can probably guess) and even McEndoo. It's a Connacht surname although I think variants would be more common in the north (especially around Leitrim and Sligo) rather than in the south of the country.

Bonus trivia: The Donegal GAA manager who won the All-Ireland in 1992 was a Brian McEniff.

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You've caught me. My inference was completely based on Brian McEniff.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I take your point.
Even if it was Gibson and Wilson who switched to the FAI before the 2004 rule change, who were the main pioneers and led the way for others in regards for choice, the 2004 rule change meant many more young ni born players were not bound to the IFA by being capped at underage competitive level.

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I thought Wilson was post-2004, no? And Gibson was 2003. The liberalising regulation officially entered the rule-book from the 1st of January of 2004, but switches have happened since 2003.

See:

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Here are some general figures on switches that Yann has presented/published as part of a talk ("Blurred nationalities: who gets to play for whom at the 2014 FIFA World Cup?" A critical analysis of the current FIFA Regulations on national team representation): http://www.academia.edu/7264909/_Blu...representation

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...pslzbbkolw.png

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The regulation concerned was ratified in Doha on the 19th of October of 2003, but somebody at FIFA must have been treating it as effective from then (considering switch requests were being granted) even if a FIFA circular (n° 877) dated the 21st of November, 2003 stated that the rule-change would only come into force on the 1st of January, 2004.

See:

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

This is Circular n° 877 dated the 21st of November, 2003, which outlines all the documents required to switch association: http://resources.fifa.com/mm/documen..._877_en_89.pdf

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...psrpw5lfyu.png
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...ps5rdfberi.png

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I presume they regarded the period after ratification as transitional or something.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Another effect of the GFA was that it delivered the political argument of irredentism to the dustbin and it could not be used with any legitimacy in any negotiations with FIFA. Although the IFA had recognised and accepted pre-GFA, the possibility and the reality that ni born players could declare for the FAI, I'd be pretty confident come 2007 they would have been loudly bleating about the injustice that one bigger country could dish out citizenship willy nilly to another smaller territory and grab their best footballers.

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Maybe it helped in such a way - in the sense that all was deemed completely above board, as far as international relations were concerned - although FIFA have always resisted clamping down on the extension of Turkish citizenship to Cypriots in the northern half of Cyprus, despite the fact the broader international community have never recognised the self-declared Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. As far as the international community are concerned, the northern half of Cyprus is under Turkish occupation and is legitimately a part of the Republic of Cyprus. Nevertheless, Muzzy Izzet and Colin Kazim-Richards qualified to play for Turkey in official FIFA competition via their (Turkish) Cypriot ancestry.

Brendan Crossan of the Irish News on: Brian Kerr's purported objection to the FAI's selection of northern-born players; the IFA's heads-in-the-sand approach; and Rory Hale's reasons for declaring for the FAI: http://www.irishnews.com/sport/opini...ble-on-966797/

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Originally Posted by Brendan Crossan

I met Brian Kerr at Donegal Celtic Football Club in August 2011. His Faroe Islands team were using the Suffolk Road facilities as preparation for their Euro 2012 Qualifier with Northern Ireland at Windsor Park.

Around that time, James McClean had declared for the Republic of Ireland after representing the north at underage level.

It was yet another eligibility row in a long list of familiar IFA-FAI spats.

Kerr, a former Republic of Ireland manager, actually sided with the northern association.

He said: "I know some of the northern players have an identity with the Republic because of the communities they're living in. I think over time that can change.

"But I don't think the Republic should be taking advantage of the Belfast Agreement to the extent they're using it in football as a way of recruiting players.

"I've always been someone who's fought for the small man and tried to see things in a fair-minded way," said the Drimnagh native.

"Even when I was manager of the Republic's teams, we weren't busy in that way in terms of selecting players from outside.

"We did, in fact, tell some players that they would be better off not playing for us because they were unlikely to get to the top level. So I think that was only fair.”

Kerr duly incurred the wrath of northern nationalism for sticking up for the IFA.

Every now and then a northern player declares for the south; somebody complains and the media dusts off old headlines.

Last week, it was Northern Ireland senior international manager Michael O’Neill who let rip.

He hit a raw nerve by calling the FAI “morally poor” after another couple of Derry natives – Jordan McAneff and Josh Daniels - opted to play for the Republic of Ireland.

Jordan’s elder brother Aaron did likewise last year with still two U21 European qualification games still to play.

You can understand O’Neill’s frustration at losing talented young players to the south after IFA coaches have invested in them.

But stamping your feet in frustration hasn’t got the IFA anywhere.

To use a football analogy, it’s like playing long ball tactics and being frustrated by the outcome.

Put simply, the IFA need better tactics.

They should be asking themselves why so many young Catholic players don’t want to play for the north.

Indeed, the IFA would be better served if they carried out in-depth surveys/interviews with all the so-called ‘defectors’ to find out where they, as an association, are going wrong.

Moreover, blaming the FAI for 'poaching' northern-born players is not a fair analysis of the situation.

Take Rory Hale as a case-study. Rory is close to making a first team breakthrough at Aston Villa and has represented Northern Ireland at underage level from U16.

In September 2015 he rejected any further call-ups to the north’s U21 squad because he wanted to play for the Republic.

On Wednesday, he earned his first call-up to the Republic’s U21s for their upcoming Euro qualifier against Kosovo.

Rory wasn’t ‘poached’ by the FAI. He contacted the FAI about switching his allegiance.

Speaking to the Irish News this week, Rory said: “I made this decision myself. I grew up in north Belfast, I’m Irish, my family is Irish and I want to play for Ireland.”

With parental guidance, Rory represented the north for several years until, he said: “I was old enough to make my own decision - and I made it.”

He made roughly 15 competitive appearances for the north but started only “four or five games”.

He felt he deserved more game-time, but Rory's heart always lay with the south.

In his broadside last weekend, O’Neill scoffed at players who insisted it was always their “dream” to play for the Republic.

Rory said: “I’ve always been a Republic fan. My father took me to all the games when I was a kid. Friendly matches as well, we went to watch all the games.

“I still watch them now. I get my Ireland top on and watch them. I was on holiday during the Euros and I had my top on to watch their games.”

Rory’s younger brother Ronan Hale has been cutting a dash at Birmingham City for the last couple of seasons.

You should see this kid play. Google him and watch this incredible goal-scoring talent.

Despite hitting over 40 goals for Birmingham City’s youth team in his first season, he was never called up for the north to play in a competitive game.

It begs questions of the IFA's scouting network that a prolific goalscoring talent like Ronan Hale wasn't utilised.

Being put on stand-by at U19 level was the closest the striker got to featuring in a competitive game for Northern Ireland.

Now he's flourishing for the Republic.

“Ronan was over in Birmingham and scoring goals and Irish League players were getting called up ahead of him. That baffles me,” said Rory.

Rory had to wait for over a year before receiving international clearance from the IFA to play for the south.

Rather than delaying his move to the Republic, it would have been perhaps more prudent of the IFA to listen to the reasons why Rory and Ronan Hale – two hugely talented young footballers from Belfast - are not playing for the north.

The IFA must ask itself is it doing enough to encourage young catholic/nationalist players to remain with the north because throwing insults southwards is a waste of time.

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Just on Kerr, we know he advised Michael McGovern to stick with the IFA, but he was also happy to select Ger Crossley, so there's certainly an element of hypocrisy to his latter-day complaints.

As for Hale, he confirms that he was the one who initiated contact with the FAI.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-35522480.html

As a small country Northern Ireland obviously have a grievance about developing players only to see them subsequently declare for another country.

And it's one thing if you feel Irish and always wanted to play for Ireland but several lads have played all through the underage groups for NI before declaring for Ireland as soon as we batted our eyelids at them.

A few lads (Eunan O'Kane) have said their nationalist background had nothing to do with their decision to switch, but sporting reasons did.

And it doesn't help relations when you have lads like James McClean saying he used Northern Ireland as a "stepping stone" towards playing for Ireland, something he prefaced by saying "it's probably the wrong thing to say".

Now I know it's no picnic for a person from a nationalist background to play for Northern Ireland, but lads like Niall McGinn and Paddy McCourt have became fan favorites for them, and several lads who've declared for us have had no problem accumulating caps for them before switching to us after seeing their stock rise - which some may decry as opportunistic.

I suppose you have to see it from their POV. Some Ireland fans complain about England trying to pinch Grealish or Crowley from us and these are lads born and bred in England, so it would be a bit hypocritical to fob off NI fans concerns about this.

It is pretty ironic that Michael O'Neill comes out with stuff like this and then tries to poach Sean Scannell and Alex Bruce from us; though they're probably left with no recourse but to look for players in Great Britain when talented players keep leaving their grasp to play with their southern counterparts.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

though they're probably left with no recourse but to look for players in Great Britain when talented players keep leaving their grasp to play with their southern counterparts.

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Why this apologist nonsense toward them ? If they want to apply a principle to it, let them. But according to you they can also circumnavigate it in certain circumstances when it suits them.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Why this apologist nonsense toward them ? If they want to apply a principle to it, let them. But according to you they can also circumnavigate it in certain circumstances when it suits them.

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We're a small country with a population of <5m. Northern Ireland is a tiny country with a population of <2m.

It would be a hammer blow to us if considerable segments of our population started declaring for another country.

Imagine how much of a blow it is to them and their, already small, talent pool.

I'm simply trying to provide a bit of scope.

F*ck them. These people are Irish.

Particularly f*uk them while they display such a one eyed attitude toward it. They cant have it both ways.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

We're a small country with a population of <5m. Northern Ireland is a tiny country with a population of <2m.

It would be a hammer blow to us if considerable segments of our population started declaring for another country.

Imagine how much of a blow it is to them and their, already small, talent pool.

I'm simply trying to provide a bit of scope.

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Are you really trying to draw Danny on you? You completely miss the point with "declaring for another country." Read Hale's comments.

You shouldn't be quoting the comments if you're worried about that.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

You completely miss the point with "declaring for another country." Read Hale's comments.

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Another country?

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These people are Irish.

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Nobody forced them to play for Northern Ireland at underage level.

There have been several players who switched back to NI after it didn't work out for us, but perhaps that narrative doesn't fit?

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Nobody forced them to play for Northern Ireland at underage level.

There have been several players who switched back to NI after it didn't work out for us, but perhaps that narrative doesn't fit?

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They were perfectly entitled to play for Northern Ireland at underage level. They exercised their right to do so, experience it, learn from it, benefit from it and ultimately when and if they decide they'd rather play for the team down the road -that's their right too.

Also, I have great time for Brian Kerr but he's somewhat forked tongued on this issue and possibly selective in his memory too -he described the FAI (of whom I'm scarcely a fan) as 'predatory' in their pursuit of McClean when it transpires McClean initiated contact with the FAI via Niall Quinn and Sunderland. Yet, and perhaps one of the Northern Ireland lads on here can add to, confirm or rebuff this, - there were more than one or two on OWC a few years back asserting that Kerr -acting on what information or initiative I don't know, telephoned the as yet uncapped Chris Baird to invite him to join up with our squad only for Baird to say 'No thanks, I'm happy where I am'.

I'm not accusing Kerr of anything other than hypocracy there. As the Ireland manager his primary duty was to maximise the player pool available to the FAI. He broke no rule I know of by calling Baird -if indeed he did contact him.

I'm just saying I completely understand why Northern Ireland fans would be annoyed about the situation.

I'm delighted that players the caliber of Duffy and McClean declared for us but if the shoe was on the other foot..

You have to see both sides of the story.

I can't imagine how annoyed I would be if I was a NI fan when McClean made his "stepping stone" comment.

The closest thing you could compare it to is Grealish using ROI as a stepping stone, which he obviously did.

But at least Grealish was English born and bred, and had the common sense and PR savvy not to make such questionable comments in a public arena.

At the end of the day, it's up to the footballers I suppose. They're well within their right to do what they want to do. NI have just got to keep on keeping on. Produce them; develop them; make them feel wanted; inculcate them. They have a strong set up and record of working with young players up there. If we benefit, hooray for us.

I'm sure they can take players from us also. There were whispers several years ago that a couple of Southern players were thinking of switching but nothing came to fruition.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

But at least Grealish was English born and bred.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I'm sure they can take players from us also. There were whispers several years ago that a couple of Southern players were thinking of switching but nothing came to fruition.

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Alright Towk, very funny. I'll give you credit for the effort but you can drop the act now, nobody is that ignorant.

:confused:

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

:confused:

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I stand corrected.

It might be worth reading through the thread before diving in with both feet.

The English born and bred comments sounds like you're suggested McClean is not Irish born and bred which is hugely insulting to a huge number of Irish people, including a lot of posters on here.

The second one about southern players switching. Again, read the thread, Irish players are not eligible for Northern Ireland unless they are dual nationals and that's too simple an explanation.
.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

They were perfectly entitled to play for Northern Ireland at underage level. They exercised their right to do so, experience it, learn from it, benefit from it and ultimately when and if they decide they'd rather play for the team down the road -that's their right too.

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It's also worth remembering that the IFA have been more than happy to continue training and selecting players who have already made it explicitly clear to them that their ultimate ambition is to represent the FAI: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligib...=1#post1563742

The IFA are happy to continue training and selecting such players because they stand to benefit from these players' participation in their teams and may even end up with these players opting to commit to the association down the line as that desired call from the FAI may never emerge for the player. So, it's not a case of "all take" by the players concerned. The IFA benefit from these "transactions" too.

Besides, who's funding the IFA, their coaching and the facilities they use? A significant portion of their funding is public money; a considerable amount of that comes from the nationalist community who support Ireland and who regard players like Duffy and McClean as local/community heroes.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Also, I have great time for Brian Kerr but he's somewhat forked tongued on this issue and possibly selective in his memory too -he described the FAI (of whom I'm scarcely a fan) as 'predatory' in their pursuit of McClean when it transpires McClean initiated contact with the FAI via Niall Quinn and Sunderland. Yet, and perhaps one of the Northern Ireland lads on here can add to, confirm or rebuff this, - there were more than one or two on OWC a few years back asserting that Kerr -acting on what information or initiative I don't know, telephoned the as yet uncapped Chris Baird to invite him to join up with our squad only for Baird to say 'No thanks, I'm happy where I am'.

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I read that story myself about Baird. EalingGreen used to bring it up. I only ever read about it on this forum and on OWC; never saw it published anywhere else. That's not necessarily to say it wasn't true.

For what it's worth, Kerr also selected northerners Henry McStay and Ger Crossley in his under-age teams. He also had early discussions with Darron Gibson about switching.

He did turn Michael McGovern away, mind, and advised him to stick with the IFA as Shay, Dean Kiely, Wayne Henderson, Brian Murphy and Joe Murphy would all have been ahead of McGovern in the goalkeeping pecking order at the time, according to Kerr.

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Originally Posted by Brian Kerr

I first came across Michael McGovern 14 years ago, long before he was a European Championship hero for Northern Ireland, back in the day when I was managing the Irish youth team.

He was selected for an underage squad, had showed some promise, and seemed interested in declaring for us.

Yet, at the time, there were plenty of goalkeepers ahead of him in the queue.

Shay Given was still young and was our No 1. Dean Kiely was playing Premier League football with Charlton and our youth set-up had produced some fine goalkeepers around that era - Brian Murphy, Wayne Henderson, Joe Murphy.

So I felt I had to be honest, and even though Michael was a smiley, pleasant fella, the sort I loved having around the squad, I thought it was right to tell him that if he harboured ambitions to play international football, the reality was that he would stand a better chance with Northern Ireland than us.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

I'm not accusing Kerr of anything other than hypocracy there. As the Ireland manager his primary duty was to maximise the player pool available to the FAI. He broke no rule I know of by calling Baird -if indeed he did contact him.

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I like Kerr myself and have a great deal of respect for him, but his denunciations in recent years of the FAI's facilitation of northerners are totally hypocritical considering his own managerial actions back in the day. I'm not saying Kerr was wrong in selecting northern players either - he wasn't - just that he's a hypocrite if he's going to use it as a stick with which to beat the FAI now.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

I stand corrected.

It might be worth reading through the thread before diving in with both feet.

The English born and bred comments sounds like you're suggested McClean is not Irish born and bred which is hugely insulting to a huge number of Irish people, including a lot of posters on here.

The second one about southern players switching. Again, read the thread, Irish players are not eligible for Northern Ireland unless they are dual nationals and that's too simple an explanation.
.

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I never said they weren't baseless rumours. Could a person from the South of Ireland with Northern Irish grandparentage not be eligible for the Northern Ireland national team, joedenilson?

I respect James McClean's reasons for declaring for us and anyone can see some in NI's camp are wilfully ignorant of them, but he undermines his own cause when he says he used them as a stepping stone in his own career and suggests that he waited until his stock was high to switch to ROI.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I never said they weren't baseless rumours. Could a person from the South of Ireland with Northern Irish grandparentage not be eligible for the Northern Ireland national team, joedenilson?

I respect James McClean's reasons for declaring for us and anyone can see some in NI's camp are wilfully ignorant of them, but he undermines his own cause when he says he used them as a stepping stone in his own career and suggests that he waited until his stock was high to switch to ROI.

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Nice dodge. If you can't see the distinction between born and bred Irishmen like McClean playing for Ireland and someone from the 26 counties with a Northern Irish grandparent, I'll just leave it, I thought you were on a deliberate wind up. I never mentioned anything about McClean being a PR nightmare, that fact is well known.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I never said they weren't baseless rumours. Could a person from the South of Ireland with Northern Irish grandparentage not be eligible for the Northern Ireland national team, joedenilson?

I respect James McClean's reasons for declaring for us and anyone can see some in NI's camp are wilfully ignorant of them, but he undermines his own cause when he says he used them as a stepping stone in his own career and suggests that he waited until his stock was high to switch to ROI.

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McClean pulled out of the Northern Ireland squad to play the Faroes in July 2011, when he was still with Derry City.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

Nice dodge. If you can't see the distinction between born and bred Irishmen like McClean playing for Ireland and someone from the 26 counties with a Northern Irish grandparent, I'll just leave it, I thought you were on a deliberate wind up. I never mentioned anything about McClean being a PR nightmare, that fact is well known.

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So it is possible for someone from ROI to declare for NI and I wasn't imagining things? Okay.

I'm not on a wind up. Of course I can see the distinction between someone like McClean and Grealish. It's night and day. I'm simply trying to understand things from their (NI) perspective. It isn't a black and white issue. There are grey areas. That is all.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

Nice dodge. If you can't see the distinction between born and bred Irishmen like McClean playing for Ireland and someone from the 26 counties with a Northern Irish grandparent, I'll just leave it

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What is the distinction?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

What is the distinction?

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McClean is eligible for both NI and ROI from birth.
A person from 26 counties with NI grandparent is eligible for ROI from birth. They can apply for British Citizenship in order to play for NI but it's complicated. They are not automatically dual nationals in respect of FIFA.

Anyway, that wasn't my main issue. I was triggered by the born and bred comment but TOWK has since cleared up that it wasn't his intention to imply McClean wasn't born and bred.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I'm just saying I completely understand why Northern Ireland fans would be annoyed about the situation.

I'm delighted that players the caliber of Duffy and McClean declared for us but if the shoe was on the other foot..

You have to see both sides of the story.

I can't imagine how annoyed I would be if I was a NI fan when McClean made his "stepping stone" comment.

The closest thing you could compare it to is Grealish using ROI as a stepping stone, which he obviously did.

But at least Grealish was English born and bred, and had the common sense and PR savvy not to make such questionable comments in a public arena.

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We don't have to see both sides of the story the way you seem to think. Are you aware of how hypocritical the IFA have been in there attitudes towards Irish-born players who choose to declare for their country over the decades? This debate has gone on and on and it's always the IFA, their manager, the OWC or their supporters clubs having a moan about our "poaching".

It's a corollary of Unionism and its inherent defensiveness and hypocrisy. And your consistent "let's all get along" approach is profoundly irritating and patronising.

There are 1.8m people living in Fermanagh, Antrim, Tyrone, Derry, Armagh and Down, and only about 900,000 really have any real cultural attachment to the IFA's team. These players that we "poach" generally have little cultural interest in playing for the IFA and should they line out for them like say Niall McGinn did, it has been pragmatic and there's no need to over-egg the decision. The IFA manager doesn't have to pick them if he feels that their commitment isn't 100%.

The same cultural faults you could level at Northern Irish unionists are ones inherent in us.

Irishness the way someone like James McClean sees it as different to the way someone like Alan Maybury, Richard Sadlier or Brian Kerr would see it.

Alan Maybury has given interviews about the abuse he got for wearing a Rangers tracksuit growing up in Dublin and so did Richard Sadlier. Less than 20 years ago baboons in Lansdowne Road were booing players who played for Rangers. Bill O'Herlihy had to be reprimanded for making embarrassing comments about badminton "being a Protestant sport" to the entire country on our national broadcaster after Chloe Magee won a match several years ago.

The tricolour is green, white and orange for a reason.

The bottom line is McClean and Hale deserve to be left alone after making their reasons for switching vehemently clear, even lads like O'Kane for whom nationalistic background didn't play a part, but again, I can see their (NI)'s perspective.

They're a small nation and they've spent time and resources developing players only to see them switch.

And I'm open to correction, Bonnie, but haven't several players switched back to NI from ROI which would undermine things a little bit from our perspective?

Anyway, I'm glad the Hale's switched and hope they make an impact even marginally close to a Robbie Keane.

Was Kerrs father of an Orange disposition ?

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

The same cultural faults you could level at Northern Irish unionists are ones inherent in us.

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Such as?

I lay on my "inherent bigotry" really thickly. It's so bloody obvious for all to see. :rolleyes:

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Irishness the way someone like James McClean sees it as different to the way someone like Alan Maybury, Richard Sadlier or Brian Kerr would see it.

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What are you on about?

I have no issue with anyone's expression of their Irishness (no matter how that may be demonstrated) and if you had even the most cursory knowledge of me or my discussions in here you would know not to even attempt to drive down this road.

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Alan Maybury has given interviews about the abuse he got for wearing a Rangers tracksuit growing up in Dublin and so did Richard Sadlier.

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Supporting Rangers or wearing their gear is nothing to do with cultural expression in this context I would bet... and I hardly think it made much of a difference to him when it came to playing for Ireland. It wasn't like Alan Kernaghan making a decision...

I knew a lad in my class like Sadlier who "supported" Rangers. AND tbh he was mostly on a WUM. I grew up despising Celtic for the sectarian crap that followed them around. Does that equate to the same thing?
I honestly can't believe you are equating to Dublin-born Rangers "supporting" guys with anything remotely concerning the IFA attitude and their well trodden issue with Irish-born players wanting to play for their national team, ie the FAI representative team.

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Less than 20 years ago baboons in Lansdowne Road were booing players who played for Rangers.

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So? They also played for the opposition. Those days are so long ago and so unbelievably in the past it's beyond belief you are bringing it up as an example of nationalist attitudes to Unionists/IFA.

Less than 20 years ago Omagh happened? 21 since Manchester? So?

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Bill O'Herlihy had to be reprimanded for making embarrassing comments about badminton "being a Protestant sport" to the entire country on our national broadcaster after Chloe Magee won a match several years ago.

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Come off it. Are ya serious? I still refer to garrison games. AS do many others mostly in jest and mostly in recognising the historical nature of sport on this island and how it grew and ebbed and flowed. Badminton and cricket were Protestant sports in my view when I was growing up... didn't stop me playing them mind as a teen and adult. You're a touch sensitive I feel.

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The tricolour is green, white and orange for a reason.

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Aye, it is. And?

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The bottom line is McClean and Hale deserve to be left alone after making their reasons for switching vehemently clear

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They do indeed deserve to be left alone. Who's arguing to the contrary here? The fact is the issues with their choice to play for their team of choice, for whatever reason is not with us on here!

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even lads like O'Kane for whom nationalistic background didn't play a part

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But if it did play a part you would have to concede that perhaps it was wrong then? I don't understand your point here.

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but again, I can see their (NI)'s perspective.

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Your sympathy for the IFA is rather big of you. TBH, I have zero. And I never will.

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They're a small nation

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A what now?

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and they've spent time and resources developing players only to see them switch.

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My heart is bleeding. Oh poor wee angels of Donegall Avenue.

You do realise that schoolkids dotted around the Six Counties who may identify with our team might find it difficult to get to play for us at an early age given the logistics of the situation and the fact that we lack jurisdiction for them to train and play with us. I'm sure if we could let them join earlier we would.

Also, playing for NI Schools means nahim!

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And I'm open to correction, Bonnie, but haven't several players switched back to NI from ROI which would undermine things a little bit from our perspective?

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How does it undermine anything? The FAI have never openly courted players. And always stress that the player makes the first contact given the sensitive nature of the issue at hand.

No one in the IFA or OWC etc should ever complain about the situation yet they constantly cry poor mouth.

I don't agree with our approach as I believe our playing pool is small enough without needlessly limiting ourselves. But we are where we are.

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Anyway, I'm glad the Hale's switched and hope they make an impact even marginally close to a Robbie Keane.

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Here, here.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Alan Maybury has given interviews about the abuse he got for wearing a Rangers tracksuit growing up in Dublin and so did Richard Sadlier.

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Go back and read that Richard Sadlier article about being a Rangers "fan", its pure drivel. The first paragraph is like an Alan Partridge cold open.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-26726387.html

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Was Kerrs father of an Orange disposition ?

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Kerr's father, Frank (or Frankie), was a Belfast Catholic who was son of an officer in the British army, although it seems some believed he was a Protestant because he ran the Trinity College boxing club. There's further information here in a 2004 biographical-style piece by Dion Fanning: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-26216814.html

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Originally Posted by Dion Fanning

As far as the Kerr family know, Frankie Kerr's father was a high-ranking officer in the British Army. Ulick [O'Connor] has heard he was a captain, but the Kerrs have seen the pictures, noted the servants crowding around in the background and think he was higher. "A captain in the Raj would have had plenty of servants," Ulick says.

A newspaper cutting records the fact that Frankie Kerr fought his first fight in Baghdad. The army took his father to Egypt and India as well as Mesopotamia. It was there, as a child, that Frankie befriended the future prince. The family developed a love of cricket and hockey too - Frankie would later play for Three Rock Rovers in the Leinster League.

Davey, one of Frankie's brothers, used to tell a story. There was a big parade in the barracks in Egypt. It was the British Empire at its most resplendent. The Governor-General may have been there, Generals were certainly in attendance. All was set for a splendid display when a donkey came charging through the barracks, on its back Frankie Kerr. The youngster was ordered to stop by the sergeant-major with the words "Who goes there?" With a swagger detectable in pictures taken more than 60 years ago, the child saluted and said "Frankie Kerr, sir!" before trotting off on his donkey.

The Kerrs returned to England, moving from the Isle of Wight to Aldershot and then back to Belfast. "As far as we know, his father was a Belfast man," Brian says. "Someone came from Scotland before that, and there was a change of religion in the family as well."

"What religion was Frankie?" Ulick asks.

"We were all Catholics."

"I know you were, but was he a Catholic too?"

"He was, yeah. There was a change. I think Mrs Kerr, the grandmother of the father changed and she was from a wealthy family. After that, they didn't want to know about her. He never talked much to us about the past but I knew he was never happy. He didn't want to go back to Belfast. He came here as a young man and I think he was annoyed about the whole business and the madness that went on. My eldest brother Frankie says they went up for his own father's funeral and they came back the same night."

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Was Kerrs father of an Orange disposition ?

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http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...gers-1-1292555

He has connections to Northern Ireland through family.

Responding to the bigotry against Arveladze 14 years ago:

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Kerr is doing his best to make sure it doesn’t happen on Tuesday week. "I hope that stuff fades away, I really do. I’d like there to be none of that. It’s something that ****es me off. My father and mother were from Belfast and they would have socialised in a mixed environment."

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He was open to managing Northern Ireland a few years ago but an offer never materialised.

In case anyone missed Paddy McEleney's latest wonder-goal against St. Pat's last weekend, here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6l5MGE83ZU

Majestic.

Danny won't like Danny for this: F365

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Cop out

On Tuesday morning, TalkSPORT asked famously sensitive cultural expert Danny Mills to pass comment on Wilfried Zaha’s decision to play for Ivory Coast, his country of birth, over England.

Firstly, here is what Zaha said when making his decision:

“It is rewarding first because I am proud to play for my country, then because the Ivoirian selection has quality players and it has always been a pool of talent. I left for England as a child and I did not return. So I did all my classes in my adopted country and it was the most normal thing in the world that I played for the English youth selections. But for the past four years, I have had ample time to analyse the situation and to take into account the offers of the Ivorian federation. So I made the right choice and I do not regret it.”

Now to Mills for his typically nuanced take. He knows all about the difficulties and deliberations of Zaha’s decision you see, because he was born in Norwich and played for England:

“Ultimately he’s taken the easier option and thought ‘Well, I might get a few more caps and I might get to play in a few more tournaments because my chances with England are probably going to be limited. I probably done 30-odd squads and never got any game time; sat in the stands, sat on the bench. But you still turned up every single time in the hope that you might get a chance and take it.”

‘Ultimately’, Danny, you haven’t got a clue what Zaha was thinking or his reasons for choosing his country of birth, and thus projecting your opinion onto him is, at best, mildly offensive.

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