Eligibility proposal

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly

I saw it as a loaded question actually. Same as Blanche.

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Well, your response was much appreciated Gather Round.

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The Daily Mirror is just a populist rag. Most I spoke to agree Sammy was MOTM, as was backed up by the Poll on OWC.

As it happens, Craigan or Feeney were most peoples alternative choice.

As for Healy, whilst he tried as hard as ever, he wasn't getting too much change from the big Danish defenders, who were very physical, and certainly wasn't helped by the atrocious conditions, until he produced a typical piece of magic that was quite simply unstoppable.

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Ealing calm down i do agree that Sammy was your best player against Denmark, i was just saying not everyone agreed i.e that rag you mentioned. But you have to agree he should have walked and a penalty given, if the shoe was on the other foot you would be calling for FIFA to change the result.;)

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Originally Posted by janeymac

Its hard to understand you being 100% of two nationalities. Here is a question that might help to figure out how 'Irish' you are? Would you consider that the Irish language is an important part of an Irish person's cultural heritage and should be on an equal footing with the English language by anyone who claims to be 100% Irish? Note: I don't mean that you need to be able to speak Irish to be 100% Irish - just respect those Irish people who feel it is important to Irish culture and not object to signposts in both languages etc. that type of thing.


What do you think the reaction at Windsor if a verse of GSTQ was sung in Irish? (only a verse and could be put up phenetically on a screen - it has been done elsewhere!)

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Originally Posted by janeymac

Well, your response was much appreciated Gather Round.

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

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Havnt gotten involved in this til now but I dont see how your views on the Irish language affect your Irishness in any way.

I know plenty of people, one who posts on here, with no interest(in fact a strong dislike) for he irish language, does not see the point of it being taught etc. He's from Cork, does that mean he's not Irish?

It is your opinion that the language is a key definer of the Irish nation, that doesn't make it a fact.

Personally I went through Gaelscoils, and now teach in one and am fluent. Yet I dont see how your position on the Irish language has any influence whatsoever on your irishness.

I am Irish because I was born on the island of Irish, just as blanchflower and co were. There is no 'cultural test' to define how Irish you are. You simply are.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly

I saw it as a loaded question actually. Same as Blanche.

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LOL!

Well that wasn't reflected in your answer which was an utterly different tone to Blaches.

I think you're both being a touch paranoid tbh, I think it's a legitimate question and not political at all. Why do you consider it loaded? The Irish language is undoubtedly part of what defines Irish culture despite the sparseness of it's use as a first language. Those of the unionist persuasion who would have had difficulties with the language in the past always seemed to me to be more of the 'being born in a stable doesn't make one a horse' persuasion and to also have difficulties around accepting their 'Irishness' which the pair of you don't seem to.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

LOL!
Why do you consider it loaded? The Irish language is undoubtedly part of what defines Irish culture...[past] difficulties around accepting their 'Irishness' which the pair of you don't seem to [share]

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Loaded for the reason Blanche suggested. I'm not at all paranoid about that specifically or the subject on this thread generally, ie some NI players going to play for you. It's a hit, but we'll get over it, and good luck to them.

It's part of Irishness, but not an essential part the absence of which excludes anyone.

Aye, I've no problem being Irish. I quite like it.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Going to Spain, Gather round?

Alas not. But while my effective semi-retirement from watching us coincides with excellent results, I ain't complaining ;)

My representative, Ulster Seamus reports an excellent turnout in Las Palmas where he is currently working on a suntan. The bsatard.

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I'll doubtless bump into him when I arrive tomorrow.:)

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Originally Posted by micls

Havnt gotten involved in this til now but I dont see how your views on the Irish language affect your Irishness in any way.

I know plenty of people, one who posts on here, with no interest(in fact a strong dislike) for he irish language, does not see the point of it being taught etc. He's from Cork, does that mean he's not Irish?

It is your opinion that the language is a key definer of the Irish nation, that doesn't make it a fact.

Personally I went through Gaelscoils, and now teach in one and am fluent. Yet I dont see how your position on the Irish language has any influence whatsoever on your irishness.

I am Irish because I was born on the island of Irish, just as blanchflower and co were. There is no 'cultural test' to define how Irish you are. You simply are.

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Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

I know lots of Irish people who say they hate the Irish language (mostly because of poor teaching imo). None of them object to signposts with place names in both Irish and English in Ireland. Now, in NI you will find some unionists actively objecting to dual signage and that to me is rejecting their 'Irish' cultural heritage, most likely to feel more 'British'. You don't have two 'competing' national identities in Cork.

I consider all people born on the Island of Ireland to be Irish and its good to see that Blanch & Gather Round have no problems with accepting their Irish cultural heritage.

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Originally Posted by janeymac

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

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Do you think Australians or Americans have difficulty in "defining their nationality" because they speak English. Would it be useful for them to be able to speak Aboriginal or Native American languages?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Do you think Australians or Americans have difficulty in "defining their nationality" because they speak English. Would it be useful for them to be able to speak Aboriginal or Native American languages?

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That's an unbelievable statement and a new low. Where did anyone mention anything about you being able to speak Irish? The point was about a recognition of the language not fluency. I assume you're acting the WUM or at least being very facetious.

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?

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Originally Posted by janeymac

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

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Unless a proficiency in Irish is some sort of pre-requisite, as with the Civil Service or Teaching etc, I fail to see what it has to do with Eligibility (or otherwise) for either Irish football team.

Separate thread?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Nonsense. A Scot is no less a Scot because Scotland is in the UK. An Englishman no less an Englishman, etc.

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And a Yorkshireman is no less British aswell.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I believe we were talking about identity before that. I only referred to 'identity crisis' because you - or someone else - had unfairly introduced the idea.

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I think the general argument before you popped in was citizenship as a criteria for playing for Ireland. You brought up the identity crisis to rubbish someone's identity. Yet you want the same respect for an equally mixed bag.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Your comments indicate that you have a problem with anyone who doesn't conform to your simplistic and binary understanding of identity. I think it would be more reasonable to conclude that your limited understanding, and not my identity, is "pathetic".

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As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality. Like being Yorkshireman and British. One's a nationality, the other just the gaff I'm from.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

And? In none of those quotes did I tell anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country! Please stop making things up.

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You didn't need to.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Strange question. The British population is the British population - made up of all who live there.

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Sorry, I meant English (although all four 'countries' have had a dig over the 'grannys' at some time - my favourite being one welsh manager - Mike England? - when his team had about three players with no Welsh connections).

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I don't think NI should pick players with no connection to NI. And, if you accept that you can't have it both ways, then you can't claim a figure of 1/19th of the population.

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I couldn't care less who you choose. Go trawl Bongo Bongo Land for all I care. You might find someone with more Irish connections than some of the players you currently have.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I say? Your behaviour indicates that you are struggling to engage in a rational discussion. I said the NI eligibility was stricter than the Republic's. That is a fact.

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And once you accepted the grannies the Republic's became stricter than yours.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I have never said that we are on the moral high ground.

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Again you don't need to, when you say along the lines of 'we didn't have as many grannies as you'.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

No. When I refer to ROI I only refer to the 26 counties. When I say Ireland, I mean ... well, Ireland (all 32 counties).

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You can call it the 26C. The name of the place is Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

You deny that Great Britain, Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? You deny that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland)?

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Typical British. Claim something that isn't yours as your own. Like the English channel, and Mount Everest. As for that 'greater entity', you mean that 120 year disaster that came about when a sectarian parliament representing maybe 10 -15% of the population still needed to be bribed to join it. You make it sound like it was a partnership. LOL :D

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You win, Lopez. You've dragged me far beyond rational debate, past irrational debate, even past anger, frustration and indeed outrage*.

*By his contention that someone is more "truly" Irish for possessing Nationalist views than someone with, say, Unionist views, or by denying people the right to be both Irish and British, or by gratuitously ascribing an "identity crisis" to such people, I can only conclude that Lopez is desperate to compensate for the nagging fear that his having been born and brought up amongst all these Cockernees means that he is in reality somewhat less of an Irishman than those of us privileged and lucky enough to have been born and brought up in Ireland itself, in circumstances where we were free to choose our own identity, Nationality and politics, entirely as it suited us. Sad.

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I've been missing your horsesh*te. Good that you can spare a piece of your mind as I know there isn't much to it. Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are. ;)

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Originally Posted by antrimgreen

But you have to agree he should have walked and a penalty given, if the shoe was on the other foot you would be calling for FIFA to change the result.;)

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No, I don't agree Sammy should have walked and a penalty given. But I do agree that had it been a Danish player, of course it should have been a Peno and a Red Card.

I'm a football fan, after all...;)

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Originally Posted by Gather round

It's not political views that makes them less Irish. It's relegating Ireland to a region of another country, and opting for citizenship of another country that does

Only part of Ireland is 'relegated' within another country with separate nationality. In no reasonable way does this make us less Irish. I don't really see where you can go with this one, Lopez?

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I'm going along a purely nationality road. No hidden questions about party politics, language, musical tastes etc.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

[you are 100% Irish but consider yourself British

I consider myself 100% both. What's da problem? It's entirely reasonable and logical.

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I thought you considered yourself 100% Northern Irish.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

[People didn't take 'the Charlton team' seriously due to ignorance and jealousy

Broadly agreed, although don't assume all the jealous were ignorant. They played to their strengths, sometimes it wasn't pretty (not entirely different to the current NI team ;) )

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We played the best team available.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

...I even had time for some inane pidgin-Spanish banter with Lopez ;).

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It was basically 'Donde puedo obtener un principe Alberto?' Must admit Spanish in a Northern Irish accent is quite sexy.

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Originally Posted by janeymac

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

I know lots of Irish people who say they hate the Irish language (mostly because of poor teaching imo). None of them object to signposts with place names in both Irish and English in Ireland. Now, in NI you will find some unionists actively objecting to dual signage and that to me is rejecting their 'Irish' cultural heritage, most likely to feel more 'British'. You don't have two 'competing' national identities in Cork.

I consider all people born on the Island of Ireland to be Irish and its good to see that Blanch & Gather Round have no problems with accepting their Irish cultural heritage.

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Whether the Irish state feels its important or not isn't really relevant as agreeing with the Irish state isnt a pre-requisite to being Irish.

This is your quote:

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Originally Posted by janeymac

that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

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I dont see how rejecting Irish in Cork should be seen any differently as rejecting Irish in the North unless that person specifically rejects it on the basis that they dont want to be Irish.

In general I dont think an opinion ir lack of respect for the language or any other aspect of our culture has any affect on whether someone is Irish.

Anyone who is born on this island is Irish, as well as anything else they consider themselves i.e. UK.

What people define as 'Irish culture' has no effect on that.

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co? No, not at all. None of those things affect whether you are Irish are not. They are aspects of our past/culture people can choose to relate with and respect.

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Originally Posted by micls

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co?

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if you have red hair, freckles and eat tons of spuds I'd say you were the most Irish person ever...

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?

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Plenty people like that here with British passports. :D Always cussed. Never mind the English that move to Spain and don't learn the lingo. Unlike GR here: 'Aye, aye, aye! Me duele mi pija. Creia que Principe Alberto era el marido de Reina Vitoria de Inglaterra?'

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

That's an unbelievable statement and a new low.

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My goodness.:eek: Why is it unbelievable and why is it "a new low"?

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Where did anyone mention anything about you being able to speak Irish?

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What do you mean? I don't think anyone has mentioned anything to me about being able to speak Irish.:confused:

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

The point was about a recognition of the language not fluency.

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And? So what? My question remains valid - would it be helpful to an American or Australian to be able to recognise Native American or Aboriginal languages?

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

I assume you're acting the WUM or at least being very facetious.

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Neither - I'm just curious about the implied point that it is difficult for an English-speaker to explain that they are not English and that being able to speak Irish (in the case of an Irish person) is helpful in explaining that one is not English. In my experience, I have never had such difficulty, hence my curiosity.

Since Australians and Americans, by and large, also speak English but are not English, I'm asking if janeymac thinks it would be helpful for them to be able to speak (sorry, recognise) Aboriginal or Native American languages.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?

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Sadly, some racists might never accept them as English, no matter how many generations they've been resident but I don't think that, generally speaking, there would be any difficulty in them being accepted as English. Indeed, I think it would be taken for granted.

Why do you ask, because I don't see how this is relevant - Janeymac was talking about people who aren't English and don't want to be thought of as English.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are. ;)

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Can't make Las Palmas, but if I there, it would still say citizen of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (quite appropriate, since I would be there to follow Northern Ireland). As such, it may fairly be described as an "Irish Passport", since it is issued by the Government of one part of
Ireland, to an Irishman from that same part of Ireland.

Which, since it is a mere document, used primarily by me for travel purposes, does not change or affect my status as an Irishman, born and bred. Which is why if I ever decided to apply for an Irish Passport issued by the Government of the other part of Ireland, my status as an Irishman born and bred would remain equally unchanged and unaffected.

Then again, possessing two Passports should not be a problem for anyone who is entirely comfortable with his own identity, as I am. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dodge

if you have red hair,

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No

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Originally Posted by Dodge

freckles

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Some

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Originally Posted by Dodge

and eat tons of spuds

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Yes :D

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Originally Posted by lopez

And a Yorkshireman is no less British aswell.

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Did someone say that he was?

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Originally Posted by lopez

I think the general argument before you popped in was citizenship as a criteria for playing for Ireland. You brought up the identity crisis to rubbish someone's identity..

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I didn't - I was responding to others making allegations of identity crises.

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Originally Posted by lopez

As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality.

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And presumably you think somene who is Irish and British is somehow "less" Irish than someone who is Irish only. That is the chauvinistic, ugly exclusivist attitude to which I object. I do not accept you as an authority to tell me or anyone else that I am "less" Irish because I am also British.

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Originally Posted by lopez

You didn't need to.

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Of course. I didn't "need" to because I don't "need" to say things I don't believe. I never [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]told anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country. To do so would be nonsensical, given that passports are only available to citizens.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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Originally Posted by lopez

Sorry, I meant English (although all four 'countries' have had a dig over the 'grannys' at some time - my favourite being one welsh manager - Mike England? - when his team had about three players with no Welsh connections).

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Still don't understand - the English population is the English population, made up of those who live there.

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Originally Posted by lopez

I couldn't care less who you choose.

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Maybe you don't, but that doesn't alter the fact that, in my view, NI shouldn't pick players with no connection to NI, and, therefore, it is not inconsistent for me to have the same opinion about ROI.

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Originally Posted by lopez

And once you accepted the grannies the Republic's became stricter than yours.

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Again, that doesn't alter the fact that in the 80s and 90s the NI criteria were stricter. It seems that you now accept this point, which previously you have been arguing against.

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Originally Posted by lopez

You can call it the 26C. The name of the place is Ireland.

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If, by "Ireland" you mean the 26C, then its name is a misnomer, as I've pointed out.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Typical British. Claim something that isn't yours as your own. Like the English channel, and Mount Everest. As for that 'greater entity', you mean that 120 year disaster that came about when a sectarian parliament representing maybe 10 -15% of the population still needed to be bribed to join it. You make it sound like it was a partnership. LOL

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I'll take that as a "no": you don't deny that Great Britain[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana], Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? Nor that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland).[/FONT][/COLOR]

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Originally Posted by lopez

Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are.

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Ironically, when Ealing does that he will read: "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"! :D

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Originally Posted by micls

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co? No, not at all. None of those things affect whether you are Irish are not. They are aspects of our past/culture people can choose to relate with and respect.

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At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

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Irishwoman.....that clears it up :D

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

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In fairness Blanchflower I think many on this forum would agree with her views but we've all abandoned this particular thread long ago for the sake of sanity.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

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Now thats chauvinism...

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Originally Posted by micls

Irishwoman.....that clears it up :D

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Oops, many apologies!:(

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Originally Posted by youngirish

In fairness Blanchflower I think many on this forum would agree with her views but we've all abandoned this particular thread long ago for the sake of sanity.

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Fair enough. I'm glad if that's the case.

So... eligibility,eh?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

My goodness.:eek: Why is it unbelievable and why is it "a new low"?


What do you mean? I don't think anyone has mentioned anything to me about being able to speak Irish.:confused:


And? So what? My question remains valid - would it be helpful to an American or Australian to be able to recognise Native American or Aboriginal languages?


Neither - I'm just curious about the implied point that it is difficult for an English-speaker to explain that they are not English and that being able to speak Irish (in the case of an Irish person) is helpful in explaining that one is not English. In my experience, I have never had such difficulty, hence my curiosity.

Since Australians and Americans, by and large, also speak English but are not English, I'm asking if janeymac thinks it would be helpful for them to be able to speak (sorry, recognise) Aboriginal or Native American languages.


Sadly, some racists might never accept them as English, no matter how many generations they've been resident but I don't think that, generally speaking, there would be any difficulty in them being accepted as English. Indeed, I think it would be taken for granted.

Why do you ask, because I don't see how this is relevant - Janeymac was talking about people who aren't English and don't want to be thought of as English.

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Comparing the Aboriginal and Native American scenarios where the indigenous populations we pretty much wiped out with the situation in Ireland where the majority of the population of the island still feel that the language is an important cultural reference point is frankly laughable as you well know. Despite our invaders best efforts we're still thriving. ;)

Your post as to whether it would be of any help to an American or Australian person to speak an Aboriginal or Native American language would imply that you thought Janeymac was saying it would be a help for you to speak Irish. this obviously wasn't the case. As a matter of interest Aboriginal culture is now finally being acknowledged in Australia as the country comes to terms with the more shameful aspects of it's colonial past.

And I'd argue that a huge amount of people in the UK would have major issues and indeed currently do with people coming there and refusing to learn the language. It may not be right but I think it's likely.The point is that where a language exists (and within Ireland that language is Irish whether you want to deny it or not) it is an important cultural reference point for that country. The fact that major steps have been made in recognising this North of the border in recent years shows this.

Fact also is that it was the language spoken by the vast majority of the population of the island of Ireland for thousands of years before being nearly stamped out in the 18th/19th century and therefore it's cultural link can't simply be ignored or looked upon as a footnote. To be so offended that someone asking your thoughts on it (as an Irishman) seems repugnant to you beggars belief.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Comparing the Aboriginal and Native American scenarios where the indigenous populations we pretty much wiped out with the situation in Ireland where the majority of the population of the island still feel that the language is an important cultural reference point is frankly laughable as you well know. .

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It's not laughable in the least in the context of the comparison being made, i.e. English-speakers who are not English from Ireland and from Australia and/or America and.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Your post as to whether it would be of any help to an American or Australian person to speak an Aboriginal or Native American language would imply that you thought Janeymac was saying it would be a help for you to speak Irish. this obviously wasn't the case.

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Well, that wasn't what I said nor what I implied.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

As a matter of interest Aboriginal culture is now finally being acknowledged in Australia as the country comes to terms with the more shameful aspects of it's colonial past.

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And I should hope so, too.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

And I'd argue that a huge amount of people in the UK would have major issues and indeed currently do with people coming there and refusing to learn the language. It may not be right but I think it's likely.

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I wouldn't disagree. What point are you trying to make?

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

The point is that where a language exists (and within Ireland that language is Irish whether you want to deny it or not) it is an important cultural reference point for that country. The fact that major steps have been made in recognising this North of the border in recent years shows this.

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Why would I want to deny that Irish is a language that exists in Ireland?
When did I ever say that it wasn't an important cultural reference point? What on earth point are you trying to make?

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Fact also is that it was the language spoken by the vast majority of the population of the island of Ireland for thousands of years before being nearly stamped out in the 18th/19th century and therefore it's cultural link can't simply be ignored or looked upon as a footnote.

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And? Has someone said that it should be ignored or looked upon as a footnote?

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

To be so offended that someone asking your thoughts on it (as an Irishman) seems repugnant to you beggars belief.

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I wasn't offended that someone asked my thoughts on the language. It was quite clear that my offence was at the suggestion that my views on the language were a determinant of whether or not (or to what degree) I was Irish. As I already said, it was the premise of the question to which I objected.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.:o Perhaps you should give consideration to withdrawing your comments about my comments being a "new low". Or maybe you should also chastise those, like micls and Gather round who agree with me.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I am not suggesting that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. That is what you have done,.

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Despite your best gymnastic efforts to twist whatever I wrote to fit your prejudiced stereotypes and drag me into a ("blood") debate away from the thread you will not find one example where I deviated away from the established constitutional criteria and FIFA interpretation of such when it comes to a scale of interpretating the strength of a link to the Irish state.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Despite your best gymnastic efforts to twist whatever I wrote to fit your prejudiced stereotypes and drag me into a ("blood") debate away from the thread you will not find one example where I deviated away from the established constitutional criteria and FIFA interpretation of such when it comes to a scale of interpretating the strength of a link to the Irish state.

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Sorry pal, mistook you for lopez.

You didn't suggest that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. But I was responding to others who did and it is certainly not "cheap and nasty" to object to that - it is the attitude behind the suggestions being objected to which are "cheap and nasty".

You should be attacking those who make such suggestions, not those who object to them.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Sorry pal, mistook you for lopez.

You didn't suggest that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. But I was responding to others who did and it is certainly not "cheap and nasty" to object to that - it is the attitude behind the suggestions being objected to which are "cheap and nasty".

You should be attacking those who make such suggestions, not those who object to them.

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As I have a soft touch for Lopez I won't be too insulted.
People have their own questions which often don't relate to what other posters are debating.
And the question was asked to another poster
I still consider that you jumped the gun, reacting what you thought was being alluded to. In the context of what was being debated, Jayneymac's questions were fair game, they were cultural not political and was missing just one word to make that crystal clear.

"Here is a question that might help (me)to figure out how 'Irish' you are?"
in the post
http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=819133&postcount=657

do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else

No- this is a contrived example exaggerated unreasonably, I think. Even allowing for particular religious/ cultural/ educational attitudes within the Pakistani community, there can't be significant numbers of third generation immigrants who can't or won't speak English. However, since you mention it, Urdu is a common language in Pakistan (and very similar to Hindi), but I think a majority in the country speak other languages, led by Punjabi, as their 'morr tongue'

As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality. Like being Yorkshireman and British. One's a nationality, the other just the gaff I'm from

I'm entirely relaxed about what you see as a relegation- although I'd advise you against developing the theory in a Leeds or Sheffield pub. You simply haven't demonstrated that any of us (on the thread and beyond) is any more or less Irish than any other

You might find someone with more Irish connections than some of the players you currently have

Perhaps. I stand to be corrected that apart from Herr Torhuter Schneider* (heh, I knew that Michel Thomas course would come in handy), we've had no other players in reccent years who haven't had a parent from NI if not growing up there themselves.

I thought you considered yourself 100% Northern Irish

I do. That doesn't contradict me being 100% British** and 100% Irish

Must admit Spanish in a Northern Irish accent is quite sexy

Get yer coat, amigo. Ye've pulled ;)

'Aye, aye, aye! Me duele mi pija. Creia que Principe Alberto era el marido de
Reina Vitoria de Inglaterra?'

La Empresa Victoria, por favor!

As I have a soft touch for Lopez I won't be too insulted

For your sake, I hope your Spanish is even worse than mine. Giving some of the kinkiness Lopez is detailing above...

* goalkeeper, Taylor
** OK, any pedants reading. 'British' here means shorthand for the larger country, including NI, as I never refer the UK. I'm no monarchist.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

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The word "camogie" should have made that clear Blanch :rolleyes:
Boys play hurling Girls play camogie just in case you were wondering.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

You didn't suggest that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. But I was responding to others who did and it is certainly not "cheap and nasty" to object to that - it is the attitude behind the suggestions being objected to which are "cheap and nasty".

You should be attacking those who make such suggestions, not those who object to them.

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That's your preception of what was suggested, myself and others on here (including the original poster) think that your perception of the question is wrong and that you over reacted in a 'cheap and nasty' way. I see notinhg in any of your responses to suggest that you're not still over reacting to some imagined slur. You agree that the the language is an important cultural reference point so why can't you see that culture and politics are totally different issues. The arguement had degenerated into farce at this stage iny case.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

That's your preception of what was suggested, myself and others on here (including the original poster) think that your perception of the question is wrong and that you over reacted in a 'cheap and nasty' way. I see notinhg in any of your responses to suggest that you're not still over reacting to some imagined slur. You agree that the the language is an important cultural reference point so why can't you see that culture and politics are totally different issues. The arguement had degenerated into farce at this stage iny case.

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If I may quote Sam McAughtry '' My political affiliation may be British, but culturally I am Irish. There is no such thing as British culture, only English, Scottish and Welsh cultures.'' I think that sums up the position of Blanchflower and many of his brethern in the Wee North. They are both British and Irish. If I may quote another example. The Channel Islands.
Part of the Agreement between France and England regarding the territories is, any Channel Islander who wishes to do so , may claim French citizenship.

So in that sense Channel Islanders are both French and English. Vive Les Iles De Manches :D

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Originally Posted by Gather round

do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else

No- this is a contrived example exaggerated unreasonably, I think. Even allowing for particular religious/ cultural/ educational attitudes within the Pakistani community, there can't be significant numbers of third generation immigrants who can't or won't speak English. However, since you mention it, Urdu is a common language in Pakistan (and very similar to Hindi), but I think a majority in the country speak other languages, led by Punjabi, as their 'morr tongue'

.

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Correct, it was a contrived exagerrated example to highlight how ludoucris this discussion had got and no more unreasonable then using the Native American and Aboriginal example that it was in response to. Glad you could see that! :D

And you're also correct in saying that many people in Pakistan speak other languages (over 80 I believe) Urdu is the officially recognised language of the state (along with English) hence why I used that as an example.

should this thread be renamed "The Irish Question"?! ;)

or even "The Irish Question: Part Deux"

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I didn't - I was responding to others making allegations of identity crises.

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You're lying again! You brought up the 'identity crisis' (post # 538) remark in response to someone saying that they knew 2G and 3G people born in England who consider themselves Irish. The poster (Drumcondra 69er) never mentioned that these people didn't have Irish citizenship and never mentioned that they only had one grandparent. You brought up the Identity crisis issue. I think we should look at the identity crisis you clearly have then, if you are going to start insulting us.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

And presumably you think somene who is Irish and British is somehow "less" Irish than someone who is Irish only.

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This is exactly what you stated in (post # 538). To remind you: 'I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.'

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

That is the chauvinistic, ugly exclusivist attitude to which I object. I do not accept you as an authority to tell me or anyone else that I am "less" Irish because I am also British.

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I don't accept you as an authority on who is or who isn't Irish. If you are going to hold such views then so will I. And it helps my case that so many of your fellow 'countrymen' feel the same way.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Of course. I didn't "need" to because I don't "need" to say things I don't believe. I never [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]told anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country. To do so would be nonsensical, given that passports are only available to citizens.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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You insinuated as much in post #538.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Still don't understand - the English population is the English population, made up of those who live there.

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If you are going to add the foreign born children and grandchildren of Ireland in the Irish population, then what about the foreign born children and grandchildren of the English. How did Owen Hargreaves qualify to play for England? How did Zola Budd run for Britain?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Maybe you don't, but that doesn't alter the fact that, in my view, NI shouldn't pick players with no connection to NI, and, therefore, it is not inconsistent for me to have the same opinion about ROI.

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I still don't care who you pick. Just don't stop Irish nationalists playing for their country.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Again, that doesn't alter the fact that in the 80s and 90s the NI criteria were stricter. It seems that you now accept this point, which previously you have been arguing against.

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It doesn't alter the fact that you picked players with no connection to the territory of the IFA before we did.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

If, by "Ireland" you mean the 26C, then its name is a misnomer, as I've pointed out.

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You've pointed out a lot of things that have been b*locks.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I'll take that as a "no": you don't deny that Great Britain[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana], Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? Nor that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland).[/FONT][/COLOR]

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Ironically, when Ealing does that he will read: "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"!

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Ironically it is known as a British passport even to the people that issue it. I rest my case. :D (BTW, my passport says 'Ireland', not 'Republic of Ireland' :p)

http://www.ukpassportsadvice.com/index4.html

This page is for British citizens and provides information only on British passports, as well as some helpful advice on the application processes.

http://www.britishembassy.ie/textonl...qualifynew.htm

Do I qualify for a British Passport?

In most cases, a person born before 1 January 1983 in the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) is eligible to hold a British passport.

ALL FIRST TIME CLAIMS TO BRITISH NATIONALITY MUST BE BACKED UP WITH SUITABLE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE IN THE FORM OF ORIGINAL BIRTH, MARRIAGE AND REGISTRATION CERTIFICATES (OR CERTIFIED COPIES FROM THE ISSUING OFFICE CONCERNED).

Blanchflower and EG: Please post anything referring to Northern Irish citizenship. I'd be interested in reading it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gather round

do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else

No- this is a contrived example exaggerated unreasonably, I think. Even allowing for particular religious/ cultural/ educational attitudes within the Pakistani community, there can't be significant numbers of third generation immigrants who can't or won't speak English. However, since you mention it, Urdu is a common language in Pakistan (and very similar to Hindi), but I think a majority in the country speak other languages, led by Punjabi, as their 'morr tongue'

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You could change this to Somalian, although the lack of English after three generations would be hard to comprehend unless the kids never went to school or went to school in their own language (not unreasonable seeing there are Spanish and Japanese schools I know of, plus I could just about imagine three generations of English in Benidorm not learning Spanish).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gather round

As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality. Like being Yorkshireman and British. One's a nationality, the other just the gaff I'm from

I'm entirely relaxed about what you see as a relegation- although I'd advise you against developing the theory in a Leeds or Sheffield pub. You simply haven't demonstrated that any of us (on the thread and beyond) is any more or less Irish than any other

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I'd probably think twice about claiming you're Irish in certain pubs on the Shankill Road too. So you are fine about the relegation of Irish to a 'regionalism'? That's fine with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gather round

You might find someone with more Irish connections than some of the players you currently have

Perhaps. I stand to be corrected that apart from Herr Torhuter Schneider* (heh, I knew that Michel Thomas course would come in handy), we've had no other players in reccent years who haven't had a parent from NI if not growing up there themselves.

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Why Torhuter Schneider?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gather round

'Aye, aye, aye! Me duele mi pija. Creia que Principe Alberto era el marido de
Reina Vitoria de Inglaterra?'

La Empresa Victoria, por favor!

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Apologies. Although, I always thought of you as a (British) Republican.