Well, rather than hear your interpretation, I think I'd rather hear a definative statement from FIFA - if it's all the same like.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
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Well, rather than hear your interpretation, I think I'd rather hear a definative statement from FIFA - if it's all the same like.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Another definitive statement :rolleyes::rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I thought you wanted to hear Gspain's interpretation. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
GSpain doesn't know his toe from his fingers when it comes to being confused on FIFA legal arbitration statutes.
So FIFA have said yes to Kane O'Connor Gibson transfers. Every one of them examined in detail.
The same FIFA department that formulated the Statutes in the first place, the same FIFA legal dept that formulated the Annex conditions for Naturalization, the very same FIFA dept that have arbitrated on the rights of dual nationals from all over the world, that arbitrate on all the naturalization issues as well.
The exact same FIFA dept that said yes yet again last October.
The one and only FIFA legal dept that have been a model of consistancy in their decisions since transfers between federation became an issue.
Against that we have a d'ickwit like Howard Wells with his amazing 'eh FIFA have not clarified it for us once and for all'
'I was in the toilet when that last letter from FIFA came and someone threw it into the bin before I got back to my desk so we did not get a letter from FIFA.'
(Todays Daily Mail)
"Republic up ante in Gibson cap row
Steve Staunton is prepared to risk the wrath of FIFA and Northern Ireland by fielding Darron Gibson in the Republic of Ireland's Euro 2008 qualifiers.
Northern Ireland manager Nigel Worthington, who has already persuaded Blackburn defender Tony Kane to switch countries after two friendlies for Republic boss Staunton, is desperate for Londonderry-born Gibson to do the same.
The 19-year-old Manchester United midfielder, who has an Irish passport, played for the Republic at youth levels, captained the Under 21 side and made his senior debut in last month's friendly win over Denmark.
Last night he was in the squad which left Dublin to face Slovakia and the Czech Republic but Worthington claims Staunton would be taking a major risk if he plays him.
Worthington said: "I will do everything in my power to get him into our system. I really can't see them playing him. If he plays and then FIFA deem him ineligible then they could be punished. And they wouldn't risk of losing points."
But Staunton's No 2, Kevin MacDonald, says the Republic are prepared to "take the risk". He added: "If Steve feels he is the right man to play on Saturday then he will pick him."
The FAI are confident that they have a watertight case and say FIFA told them last October they were within their rights to pick players with dual citizenship.
Gibson made his debut in 2003 for the Under 17s but a year later FIFA tightened qualification criteria. The FAI say Gibson's competitive debut preceded that change."
It may just be sloppy or incomplete journalism, but the final sentence of that article (emboldened) is curious. Does this imply that Northern-born players who made their "competitive debut" AFTER the tightening of the criteria in 2004 are not eligible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
No. Players from the 6 counties can choose to play with either north or south depending on their choice.
How many times do you have to be told. You cant be that stupid!!!
has Gibson ever publicly signalled what hed like to do? Would he even want to play for Norn Iron? Hes captained his country at u21 and gladly played a senior game so i would think that he would have no interest in doing so. Why would he, just look at the Neil Lennon situation. Also who the **** does Nigel Worthington think he is?
In this case the formatting of the last 2 paragraphs from the article is out of syncQuote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It is my pleasure to put a dampner on your flicker of hope :)
The only utterings from the FAI recently was in the, already mentioned in this thread, radio interview with Wells.
The FAI just replied in a statement which was read out on air
roughly like this
'The FAI say Gibson's competitive debut preceded that change
The FAI are confident that they have a watertight case and say FIFA told them last October they were within their rights to pick players with dual citizenship.'
It is a no brainer.
I doubt Gibson is going to play anyway but I don't think it'll be a sign that the FAI are worried about his eligibility (as I'm sure it'll be interpreted on OWC). It's just that he has 1 cap and is at the back of the queue for midfield places so I don't see him being thrown into two competitive fixtures away from home.
If that muppet Worthington seriously believes/hopes that FIFA (isn't the docking of points UEFA's responsibilty anyway?) will turn around and dock the Republic points if Gibson partakes in any of the games over the next few days then he's as ignorant, stupid and petty as the average poster on OWC. I wonder if Nigel could tell me who was the last European team to be docked points for fielding players that are and have been legal citizens of a country for many years and who have played for their countries through U19 and U21 level before being promoted to the senior squad even making an appearance in a friendly before their first competitive appearance. All this under the noses of FIFA without any interference thus far.
Yeah I can see them docking us points for playing him. What a clown I can't believe he's serious. I see this silly attitude that we don't inhabit or have to operate within the real world applications of universal logic that EG obviously persists with has unfortunately filtered it's way into the higher reaches of the IFA.
Docked points me arse. I think you should put some money down in the bookies on that happening Nigel if you really think its possible. You'd be a rich man if it happened. I'd say the 10000/1 UFOs landing on the Whitehouse lawn bet before Bush's presidency expires is more of a surefire thing.
Gibson must now be dying to work with this man and sing GSTQ with his hand on his heart under the St George's cross at Windsor Park.
Gibson has made his views very clear which really adds to the disdain I feel for Worthington on this issue.
This has gone on so long I've lost track a bit. Remind me concisely what the issues are again.
In our (ROI & NI / FAI & IFA) case FIFA has carved out a separate ruling & in written form to each association, allowing players born in NI to play for ROI. So this is the essential point, pre-2004 or whenever is a red-herring. Yes / no?
Regardless of this then, from memory:
- A player who plays an "A" international (i.e., a full international, friendly or otherwise) is tied.
- A player who plays a friendly underage international is not tied.
- A player who plays a competitive underage international is tied. However, such a player, if this is the highest level he has played internationally, can change to another association he's eligible to represent as long as he does so only once and before he is 21.
Correct or incorrect?
You deserve a reply from Ealing for that.
What was the tightening of eligibility the quote from the FAI bloke refers to?
Is it the bit about:
Must be born in the association's jurisdiction
Must have a parent or grandparent born in the associations jurisdiction.
Must have lived in the association's jurisdiction for 2 years
So prior to the "tightening" Gibson was only eligible because of his passport, but post the tightening he wouldn't be eligible to play for ROI.
However, the exception carved out by FIFA regarding FAI & IFA overrides this. So the FAI guy was saying that even if the FIFA carve out was never made, Gibson is still eligible to represent FAI.
I'm not asserting this, just querying my own understanding.
"Querying"? But don't you know, Stuttgart, there is no room for question on this topic? Otherwise, why would so many posters here be so absolutely certain that it is black and white, open and shut, over and out etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Tut, Tut, Stutt. Write out 100 hundred times:
"Darron Gibson is Irish and he's eligible to play for Ireland, because it's in the Good Friday Agreement and the Universal Charter of Human Rights" :cool:
It is the conditions of the Annex introduced 2004Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...%5fen%5f90.pdf
a simple easy to read doc.
No.Quote:
So prior to the tightening Gibson was only eligible because of his passport, but post the tightening he isn't eligible to play for ROI.
He was always eligible to play for Ireland. It´s just that he is still eligible after the Annex because he is a dual citizen. The Annex conditions only apply to players assuming a new nationality - naturalization.
No exception is made for Ireland, just the regular rules are applied rationally. The FAI guy was saying EVEN IF THE IFA THOUGHT THEY HAD A CASE, GIBSONS TRANSFER PRECEDES THE ANNEX. in a sort of way.Quote:
However, the exception carved out by FIFA regarding FAI & IFA overrides this. So the FAI guy was saying that even if the FIFA carve out was never made, Gibson is still eligible to represent FAI.
Okay in that case you can walk away from the wall.Quote:
I'm not asserting this, just querying my own understanding.
When Howard Wells was on NewsTalk during the week, they asked him about the possible points deduction should Gibson play, his answer was something along the lines of "that is for FIFA to decide, I couldn't possibly comment". When pressed that Worthington had made that statement, again he replied "that is for FIFA for decide".
From that, I took it to mean he hadn't a dog's notion if the points would be deducted or not.
Which I'm not allowed to download at work. Mentioned back around page 2 of this thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
The Annex conditions are in this thread but that Document I have linked to is not printed out on this thread.
It is a FIFA legal department document on the ANNEX
It is by far the best page and a half document for understanding the Annex.
I can´t copy and paste this pdf document but I won´t admit to not knowing how to.
Where was that said?.... Again another attempt to trivialise the counter arguments of others by attributing statements like that to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Apparently too easy and hypocritical of you to attempt to coin the counter arguments of others in three lines yet you bury your own sentiments in post after post of non commital shpeil....
FIFA regulatory issues... Jamie Carragher... Qatar... Northen Ireland is a unique situation... Anarchy in international football... I respect his decision BUT... ... Every other persons sentiment on this board are politicaly driven... You are all crazy fenians... :rolleyes:
Okey Dokey!!
It's Friday afternoon, my reply to Stuttgart was light-hearted (hence the smilie)Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
Or are you still smarting from my previous reply to you the other day, Dr P? Or maybe you are suffering from PMT? (Pre-Match Tension, before you go off on another one)
Anyhow, calm down, prescribe yourself a chill pill, open a cold one, or whatever... :cool:
Adobe have a service to convert pdf documents to HTML here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
http://www.adobe.com/products/acroba...linetools.html
Should do the job nicely for you
Its a pity the IFA weren't more concerned in offering protection to players like Neil Lennon that DID declare for his "country" of birth only to be harrassed firstly by moronic booing from his own fans before it elevated or was allowed to elevate to death threats and intimidation.
This one is certainly dragging on.
The FAI and IFA have been summoned to Zurich today, to get this sorted out.
IFA winning Gibbo war
Man U star's Republic career in the balance
Sunday, October 14, 2007
By Jim Gracey
Northern Ireland and Republic football chiefs have been summoned to a top level FIFA showdown in Zurich tomorrow for an expected ruling on the Darren Gibson tug-of-war between the two countries.
And indications are that the IFA will win their battle to have the Derry-born Manchester United starlet declared ineligible for the Republic who have already played him in a Euro 2008 qualifier.
That could open up another can of worms for the Republic and have serious repercussions for the young player whose senior international career would effectively be over before it really got off the ground.
Steve Staunton's side, who faced Germany in Dublin last night, could have points deducted for including Gibbo in their Group D 2-2 draw in Slovakia earlier this year.
They could even be booted out of the European Championship 2008 although their chances of qualifying for next summer's finals are slim anyway.
It would also be a bitter personal blow to 21-year-old rising star Gibson whose preference was always for the Republic and having achieved his dream, cannot now play for Northern Ireland, even if he wanted to.
His only hope, if the decision goes against him, would be for the ruling to cover future selections, allowing him to carry on representing the Republic.
IFA Chief Executive Howard Wells was at pains to point out last night:" There is nothing personal in all of this. It is about establishing a point of principle and preventing the Republic from selecting players from Northern Ireland who are not eligible for them.
"It is just unfortunate Darron Gibson has become the focus."
The wrangle has also become a political hot potato, hastening FIFA's determination to come to a resolution.
Republic chiefs and Government figures cited the right of Northern Ireland people, under the Good Friday Agreement, to consider themselves Irish citizens.
The IFA in turn recruited a top London QC and author of a book on the Agreement, Austin Morgan, who argued that the treaty was never intended to cut across sporting statutes.
Now it seems a FIFA ruling is imminent with IFA chiefs confident it will go in their favour. Either way, it will not bolster relations between the two associations.
An IFA insider hinted last night: "We expect the talks to put an end to the poaching wrangle. It has been going on for far too long.
"FIFA wanted us to get round a table and talk with the FAI but we rejected that and insisted on face-to-face talks with them, hence the summons to Zurich.
"We believe it is time to grasp the nettle otherwise we will continue to develop young players at under age level then run the risk of losing out when a special one emerges.
"It's not good enough and we want to put an end to it.
"Darron Gibson is an example of that. He played for Northern Ireland at Under 16 and Under 17 level yet was capped recently by the Republic against Slovakia.
"It's simply not good enough and it is time FIFA implemented the rules governing eligibility which are quite clear and which make young Gibson ineligible to play for the Republic.
"But this is not about young Gibson. The IFA's attitude is that the Gibson case is over but FIFA must act now to clarify the situation once and for all."
The Republic have already been told not to include players born in Northern Ireland until the wrangle has been sorted.
Journalistic licence (to scare) is what they call most of that.
From the Sunday Times Sept 9
Fifa spokesman Andreas Herren said on Friday (Sept 7): “The Fifa Legal Committee reviewed the whole issue at its meeting in mid-August. Subsequently a letter was sent to the FAI for their position on this by mid-September. As the matter is in progress, Legal have not given me further details, apart from stating that there is no specific Gibson case but rather the generic review of the entire situation.”
You just know you're dealing with a wannabee tabloid-writer bullsh1tter when they say things like "an ____ insider hinted"
Translation: I'm making it up as I'm going along and this is my opinion and/or preferred option.Quote:
....An IFA insider hinted last night: "We expect the talks to put an end to the poaching wrangle. It has been going on for far too long
Richie, thats exactly it. I always think that. ITs journalistic licence to talk sh1te. THey shouldn't be allowed do this anymore, cos there are lots of stupid people out there who would think it true!!!v:Dv:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
The IFA have now issued a, somewhat brief, statement on today's meeting.
"IFA Officials met today with FIFA in Zurich to discuss player eligibility.
The IFA reaffirms its commitment to the independence of football internationally and looks forward to FIFA resolving the issue satisfactorily.
There will be no further comment from the IFA on the matter at this stage"
If the FAI lose I would expect this to end up in the courts, but it seems pretty open and shut. FIFA & UEFA didn't know better than to try to undermine freedom of movement and trade legislation when Bosman took them on, i doubt they will make the sme mistake with the GFA
Bosman and EU legislation are utterly irrelevant, since that case concerned a dispute between an Employee (Bosman) and his Employer (club). FIFA had no view on the matter, since it was nothing to do with them what terms a Belgian football club, sanctioned by the Belgian League, sought to impose on their employees.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Footballers do not earn their living by playing international football, nor are they employed by any National Association, therefore the Bosman Rules, as redefined to comply with EU Employment Law, do not apply to Gibson, the IFA or FAI.
As for the GFA, how many times does it need to be pointed out that Gibson (and all other people born anywhere in Ireland) were entitled to an Irish Passport and Citizenship long before the GFA was even dreamed of, these facts appearing to be the foundation of the FAI's case for Gibson's eligibility?
In so far as the GFA has any bearing on this case (which it doesn't, imo), it actually harms the FAI's case. This is because part of the process which led to the GFA required the Irish Government to drop its constitutional claim to NI, which it had previously pursued right from the very founding of the Irish Free State...:rolleyes:
I haven't been keeping track of this thread but I'm sure I'm just repeating what others have said. It's only common sense for FIFA to rule in favour of the FAI. 3 years ago this would not have been an issue. That's obviously because 3 years ago once you had a passport you could play for that country. FIFA were forced to do something when countries decided to give passports out to any player that'd improve their team. We're in a unique situation in this country and FIFA wouldn't have thought of that when they changed the rules. They'll have to alter the rules now so that Irishmen up north can represent us. Common sense. Wishful thinking from Jim Gracey.
I believe John Delaney is in Switzerland today to receive the ruling on Gibson.
Anyone hear how it went?
They cant go against the FAI, it could and will get very nasty if they do. I think they will draw a line under Gibson, let him stick to the Republic, and close the door on it happening in the future. How they do this with what is stated in the Good Friday agreement I dont know.
Also i dont know if anyone has mentioned the case of Maik Taylor. There is not one iota of Northern irish blood in him. He was born in Germany to an English father and German mother and only qualifies for Northern ireland through his British passport. If Gibson is deemed ineligable for the Republic then the FAI can argue the same case for Taylor
There's a such thing as Northern Irish blood?
Presumably that would stop any British passport holder from just declaring for whoever he likes such is the case now?Quote:
Originally Posted by carloz
Quote:
Originally Posted by blobbyblob
I believe he was just making our case today. The IFA were there last Monday.
I'd expect a ruling before th end of the month.
Maik Taylor wouldn't qualify under the new rules in place since 2004. I think DG will be OK as he declared for us in 2003. The general case is a tough call imo.
The so called "home nations" have their own rules on this that are endorsed by FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 7
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2007/1022/gibsond.html
looks like good news, actually they have changed the wording to "retrospectively", which sounds like they will be making a change from now on.
The Darron Gibson case was never on the FIFA agenda for review. Everything at the time of Darron's transfer was done by the book. There was not a snowballs chance that FIFA would even consider a change to Darron's registration with Ireland.
Mixed news for FAI in Gibson dispute
October 23, 2007
The Football Association of Ireland has been informed that Derry-born Manchester United midfielder Darron Gibson can remain a Republic of Ireland player, but no other players with no close family links to the Republic can be drafted into squads in the future.
Gibson represented Northern Ireland at under-16 level before defecting to the Republic.
The decision was said to have been backed up by the Good Friday Agreement, which decreed that anyone born north of the border could hold an Irish passport.
In future, though, the political treaty will hold no sway in deciding the nationality of footballers in relation to the Republic of Ireland side.
Instead, Fifa rules will effectively override the Good Friday Agreement, meaning players must either be born in the Republic, or have a parent or grandparent born in the Republic, to qualify to represent teams within the FAI jurisdiction.
While Northern officials will be unhappy to lose out on Gibson, they will no doubt be celebrating a landmark ruling which ends a period of serious uncertainty within football circles north of the border.
All those points we got deducted eh EalingGreen?
Well in fairness, he was half right/half wrong. The word "retrospectively" says it all really.....
Btw can the FAI appeal it at all?