I don't disagree with your first point but who exactly has feared playing us in the past ten years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
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I don't disagree with your first point but who exactly has feared playing us in the past ten years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
Kenny appears to have a lot of friends in the media who are coming out to defend him. The excuses being used would not have washed with previous managers. It was all about our negative managers not giving our players a chance to play attacking football and criticising our players before this, now the line is that the players aren't good enough.
Our players aren't of the highest quality but from the team that started on Saturday, the 3 central defenders are all premier league players, our wing backs are premier league players, central midfield consisted of 2 championship regulars and a regular in a decent Belgium club team. Robbinson is a sub at a premier league team and Collins and Bazunu are lower English league players for now. Compare that with what Luxembourg have! The excuses don't wash.
Luxembourg won because they are better coached and better organised. They have worse players than us. Kenny is in the job a year now. We've barely scored any goals, we haven't won a game, he failed to qualify us for the European championships despite playing a weakened Slovakia, failed to beat an awful Bulgarian team, had a miserable nations league overall, our world ranking points are dwindling which will make it harder to qualify for future tournaments and now he has overseen the worst start to a world cup qualifying campaign in 60 years for Ireland.
I really wanted Kenny to succeed but I'm sorry, his record cannot be defended and he has to go before he does more damage. We don't have great players but we have some with potential coming through. We need a competent manager to integrate them into the squad and build for the future. This world cup campaign is already over. We need to get someone new in over the summer and let them build for the next campaign. It won't be easy to find a top level manager with our finances but 500,000 will get you a better manager than Kenny.
Or as I saw elsewhere the game was decided when a Dynamo Kiev striker beat a Rochdale goalkeeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
In reality, we are paying the price for decades of neglect at underage level, and that's not something that can be fixed quickly. Expectations of what the national team will have achieve have to be lowered, but there is still a bottom limit and losing to Luxembourg is well below what's acceptable.
I can see the argument for switching to a better style of play and that these things take time, but I don't see any evidence of progress whatsoever under Kenny.
I can see the argument for giving up on a campaign or two and just focusing on bringing through as many young players as possible...but I'm not sure why Kenny is the man for that job though.
No matter what direction we want to go in for the next few years, I'd guess there are better options than Kenny available for the same money.
It was decided when a team of mostly European lower league players outplayed a team of mostly higher level players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
The key creative players in the game were the Thillo brothers and Rodriguez. All of them looked like they'd happily walk into our team. I think the level some of our guys play at flatters them. I think Coleman is top notch. Clark more or less holds his own. Stevens did very well last season and can look comfortable at PL level. Doherty has looked excellent at PL level and Lord knows why he looks so laboured in green.
It's long time since Brady has looked like a PL player. Robinson is hardly a standout at PL level. Connolly frustrates whenever he's picked for BHA. You can't argue that these guys are more than decent Championship standard right now.
I think watching these games across the international week gives a good insight into how the rest of the continent is leaving us behind. England U21s are getting tonked yet more than half of their starting XI would get into our senior team!
Luxembourg got 10 points from Nations League section 3. Do you think we'd get that?
These are the excuses rolled out all across the media. Talking up Luxembourg as if they're not a low ranking team. It reminds me of when Staunton claimed that Cyprus would cause a lot of teams trouble after that embarrassing defeat. These excuses weren't rolled out for previous managers, why not? McCarthy got huge criticism and I believe rightfully so but his results were far better than Kenny's with basically the same standard of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
And I don't think we'd get 10 points from section 3 with Kenny in charge. We can't say he's new to the job now. Hes had a year, a nation's league campaign, a European championship play off and the start of this world cup campaign. There are no signs that we are improving. I thought there were some v serbia but when you look back, we scored 2 from 3 shots we had and Serbia were resting a few players for their Portugal game! How much worse than losing to Luxembourg at home do we have to go before we stop making excuses for Kenny?
It was San Marino after an embarrassing win actually. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
This loss was a long time coming, we truly have reaped what we have sown from a coaching point of view over the past 20 years. Look at the small number of a-license and pro license holders in Ireland relative to similar sized nations.
Too many people who were underperforming in coaching roles at underage international level were allowed to continue even though results were abysmal.
Of course the buck stops with the former CEO and his utter mismanagement of all levels of the game here but he was aided and abetted by a number of henchmen over the years.
Also, if you can get a look at the article by Miguel Delaney some years back on the attitude at Schoolboy level to some badly needed common sense reforms, it is jaw dropping stuff.
The scary thing is how quickly the level of player available to us is dropping down the leagues across the water. We now are relying on League 1 and Championship players in the main.
Getting rid of SK and appointing someone new is like performing cosmetic surgery on a critically ill patient!
At no point have I said Luxembourg aren't a low ranking team. I'm saying we aren't a high ranking team and if the results / performances since Euro 2016 are anything to go by we are struggling to be considered a mid ranking team! Two NL campaigns show we have no right to be considered a league B team anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Were Serbia really resting a few players? I could be wrong but I think 9 of 11 also started v Portugal (need to check that!).
They left Jovic and Mitrovic out of the starting line-up against us anyway. They were two of their higher-profile players, so maybe they just stand out more. Mitrovic came on as a sub and scored twice of course.
Curiosity based question? is there anyone who currently wants Kenny to stay, but would change their mind is Qatar beat us tomorrow?
:D Oh right. That's probably worse! In fairness, Staunton had far better players but the Kenny reign is going the same direction. I can't see how it can be turned around but stranger things have happened I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Beaten by a team in the middle of their project on the up. We're at the very start of our journey as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Yes, I have to agree that Serbia beat us in second gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Yeah we played OK, but they easily deserved their three points.
What annoys me more than losing to Luxembourg is hearing the management go on about our "brilliant performance in Serbia". We lost.
I wasnt referring to yourself sorry. The media defence of Kenny was what I was talking about. No doubt that we aren't in a healthy place but we have far better players than Luxembourg. Serbia kept some of their best players on the bench against us, they changed the match when they came on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
We nearly qualified for the euros. We have mostly premier league players available to us. It's been painted as if we're a minnow. Why weren't these excuses rolled out for previous managers?Quote:
Originally Posted by lofty9
Michael O’Neill managed to turn it around with Northern Ireland but he did go to Knock and say some very good prayers.
Well, it was an expanded Euros, and we won only three matches: Gibraltar home and away, and Georgia at home. That we nearly qualified tells you how farcical the expanded format is.
I would say the last time Ireland had a decent win was Wales away in 2017.
That said, we should be beating Luxembourg at home handily.
Kenny the king or as our man Bielsa would say el rey... going nowhere. The Boss stays.
I'm expecting Qatar to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
I want Kenny to stay but won't lose any sleep if a better candidate came in. I just don't see who that might be tbh, and I don't think changing manager will change anything. The project has to continue though. And before anyone comes back with trite answers like "we'll never play like Barcelona", the last few years of watching international football shows me that all the Pot 3 and most Pot 4/5 teams can do what Kenny is trying to get our players to do.
From the games I watched of Northern Ireland, their style was very similar to O Neill, Trappatoni and McCarthy for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Yep, similar without the ball but much better with it though. They kept good teams scoreless or limited to 1 goal but often won games against decent teams by 2 goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
I actually think NI benefit from a small ground & tight pitch. I hate watching us at the Aviva.
Anyone see Albania's ground yesterday? Lovely thing on 3 sides. A bit ugly and functional on the other but something like that is what we need.
It's hosting the Europa Conference League final next year actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
That's fair but we drew with Denmark at home on the last day of the group when a win would have got us through. We dominated that game and it was a better performance than anything served up since.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
I have a feeling that a performance similar to that Denmark game would be lauded by many if it came under Kenny. I fail to understand the special treatment he is receiving. Yes he wants to play in a style that would be attractive to most of us and given his background, we'd all love him to succeed but there has been nothing to indicate any progress has been made under his guidance. In fact we've gone backwards and that's saying a lot considering where we're coming from.
Ah in fairness the Denmark performance was lauded by most anyway. Mick did get credit for that. But Mick did also serve up two horror shows v Gibraltar. In all 3 games we had better players to pick from too.
But look, should we have done better on Saturday, no doubt whatsoever. And that's regardless of whose players play at what level. Our players just played shyte. And the substitutions made no sense either. So Kenny has to take flak for that.
I still think a lot could be different if Hourihane hadn't missed an open goal and Randolph hadn't thrown the ball straight to Pukki in Finland. Randolph pulls out a worldie to save us going 1 down in Gibraltar, he virtually scores for Finland in Helsinki. That's sport for you.
At one point - I'd say up to Wales away (England was pointless) there were some good signs. Some good bits in Belgrade too. But when it really mattered it was as rubbish as anything his predecessors threw up. Remember Iceland at home too under O 'Neill. This wasn't the first rubbish performance in the last few years.
There were some awful displays under McCarthy but why weren't people saying that our players are not good enough to do any better? Saying that we should give McCarthy time to build something, he has proven he could do it before yet there was very few lining up the excuses that have been rolled out for Kenny. I don't see where the better players argument is coming from, do you mean David McGoldrick? He's the only one as it's basically the same group of players apart from him except Kenny has the option of a few other youngsters who've gained some experience since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'm not a huge McCarthy fan but with basically the same players he did a far better job than Kenny is doing. McCarthy only had 10 matches in charge, he won 5, drew 4 and only lost 1. His last game was an excellent performance against Denmark where we actually had more possession, had 15 shots on goal compared with Denmark's 3, we deserved to win that match and qualify for the euros. On the other hand, Kenny has had 10 matches in charge, won 0, drew 4 and lost 6. The last match losing at home to Luxembourg, leaving us bottom of our group, the worst start to a qualifying campaign in 60 years and out of the world cup after only 2 matches after already losing a play off and guiding us through a miserable nations league.
Anyone neutral looking at those facts alone would assume all the calls would be for McCarthy to come back and for Kenny to be given the boot. But what we have is people calling for Kenny to be left in charge for 4 more years while McCarthy and managers before him were slaughtered. I really can't get my head around it. What the hell is going on?
I can only speak for myself here but I gave Kenny the benefit of the doubt up to Saturday because we were good against Slovakia in playoff and he had to deal with ridiculous situations with play pull outs for most of the other games due to covid. He did lose me with his subs in particular on Saturday but I havent got to the point where Im calling for his head because I really dont know who else I would go for at this point. I hated the McCarthy 2nd era. We were lucky to win away to Gibraltar and were disgraceful wasting time 15 minutes into the game away to Georgia.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
We have always played down to the level of the opposition since Ive started watching Ireland. We never are great against shyte teams, but we usually get away with it. Saturday we didnt but Im not convinced it was any worse a performance than the Gibraltar away was.
Agreed, we could lose 2-0 tomorrow and no one will say boo to him
McGoldrick isn't nothing in a team this stuck for forwards. I think it's notable that Mick was still using Glen Whelan. He also had a much better version of Duffy, and he still had Keogh starting ahead of many of the current lot. The core group of 29-34 year olds (Henrick, Hourihane, Doherty, Coleman, Long, Randolph, Stevens, McClean, Brady, McCarthy) were also two years younger, which matters. They're all at least a little past their peaks now. All the same, I'd agree, Mick didn't have a much better squad, just a little better. I've also reached the end of my patience with Kenny. If the FAI were flush, I think he'd be gone.
I don't think the players are doing it for him. We haven't got a great group of players, and SKs ideas on paper are fine, but modern footballers I suspect look for a big name to be over them. They are so rich delusions of grandeur set in at an early age. I'm sure many of them are thinking 'who's this guy?? Who did he play for, what has he won?'
I'm not sure what the answer is. I can see merit in keeping SK and the philosophy in situ until at least the end of the WC campaign, but the results situation is untenable. It really is. Freefall. Maybe suck up the loses for the rest of this group, play youth only and try and hand it over for the euro 2024 groups to someone who is interested in the SK path/philosophy yet is that bit more pragmatic results wise and has a profile the players would respect to boot?
Plenty of people have been consistently saying it for a decade. They certainly were under Trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
He had eight games in charge: won 3, drew 4 and lost 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Plenty of people were criticising Trap and others for putting down our players, strangely, from those I know, it's the same people who were criticising previous managers who are now putting down our players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
McCarthy won 2 friendlies against Bulgaria and New Zealand. No spectacular wins for sure but do you think you would have forgotten those wins if Kenny had been in charge?
I see your point, everyone does. There were 2-3 good performance in Mick's second term and 2-3 abject ones too. You need to look at it in the whole. The Swiss and Denmark home games were in full stadia with a very noisy crowd. The last ten mins of the Swiss game was amazingly atmospheric. Same against Denmark. That helps and you can't deny it.
The reason people aren't calling for Kenny's head is not because people aren't disappointed in what they have seen. A fair bit of it can be put down to bad luck: the injuries and the COVID withdrawals. Hourihane missing a sitter on 86 mins in Slovakia, Randolph throwing the ball to Pukki minutes after we hit the bar, a (now) clear penalty not given in Belgrade, a clear red card not awarded at 0-0 vs Lux. But Kenny has also made some big gaffs too. His game management has been poor, especially so on Saturday. His reluctance to trust Byrne in some friendlies was a mistake imho, same with Cullen too. The team were brutal on Saturday and were shown up by Luxembourg.
I think he should stay for now because he was given the job as part of a longer term project. To see the transition from an ageing side to a younger side. That transition has barely started. To change the mentality of the national senior team. The FAI hasn't a pot to **** in and can't afford a manager of any real pedigree. The FAI itself is a mess and in turmoil. Tearing it all up now could just make it worse. Kenny was hired as part of a strategy and I think needs to be given time to develop it further. I might think differently if I felt we weren't already out of the reckoning for WC qualification but I think we are facing a real uphill battle now.
I was advocating getting rid of SK in the immediate aftermath of the Luxembourg game because I was angry and frustrated. I realise now there's no point in trying to replace him - at least he will give game time to younger players, and with results now irrelevant he may aswell crack on with whatever it is he is trying to do.
Inevitably by law of averages and experience of playing the same style we'll win one or two games.
Lets say we decide to give up on the campaign (and maybe the following one) to continue the process of allowing a load of young players to be blooded and to change to a more passing approach...is Kenny the best man we could get for that job?
Even if we decide to forget about results and just get on with that process, that process is still something that can be done well or badly, and I don't have much faith at all in Kenny and his backroom staff to do it well. I believe that for half a million a year we could find somebody who could do it better.
Just reading the article below, about his start at Longford Town, well, that has given me hope. He’s definitely achieved success when allowed to rebuild things. He’s not the mug our ex pros think he is. Massive job for him, and I’d say he’s capable of convincing individual’s at the FAI of sticking with him for now. I know how he moulded a team of big personalities/ leaders at Dundalk and Derry and gained their respects, including future internationals like Forde, McCourt and McClean at Derry. Also, reading his about his communications with John Joe Patrick Finn and mother gives me hope for the future. I think we need him about in some role for the future of football here, may that be head of development, but cant see him taking that if getting removed in his current position. Maybe the job was too soon, but its probably better for us long term that we stick with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
https://foot.ie/threads/238442-RTE-O...-going-nowhere
I agree, but unless he resigns, that money is spent. We don't have an extra half million lying around to pay someone new.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
An aside that may be worth noting, the Luxembourg manager is eleven years in the role. Not advocating an extension to Kenny's contract just yet, but long-termism can have rewards.
results are not irrelevant. the last thing we need is to drop to 4th seeds. It would take a few good qualification campaigns to recover from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
We also need an international team that inspires kids to take up and stick with the game