Mark Noble is a decent player. Himself and McCarthy could be a good midfield pairing. I presume Noble will now be the first of many ex-England U21's to switch.
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Mark Noble is a decent player. Himself and McCarthy could be a good midfield pairing. I presume Noble will now be the first of many ex-England U21's to switch.
The ultimate sloppy seconds. Welcome aboard.
Someone who doesn't feel Irish in the slightest, who never had any interest in playing for Ireland, who spent 3 Qualifying campaigns neglecting to declare for Ireland amid strong interest, someone who was said to have wanted guarantees of playing time, someone who is a quite mediocre West Ham player ready to declare.
Who next, Jamie O'Hara?
Well, Stutts, does he pass your gut test?
Presumably Noble won't have to earn his place in team at all so he will jump ahead of one of Gibson, Hendrick, Meyler, Hoolahan or Reid. Does that sound fair? Again, what kind of message does this send to young players when their passage to the first team is going to be blocked by a crap 27 year old English player who spent 3 qualifying campaigns turning down call ups?
If English born players come up through the youth teams, declare at a young age, have the right attitude, are of a decent standard and will improve the team and won't cause friction within the squad then fair enough but this is a ****take from O'Neill and Keane; just like the Given call up to be completely honest.
Majorly disappointed if this is true.
West Ham player of the season last year. He ain't crap, he'll be a good addition.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Is he better than Gibson or McCarthy though? Centre mids aren't exactly what's required in the Ireland team at the minute.
How can you say Noble will be first choice? O'Neill nor Keane would never make such a guarantee. Noble would start as a squad player at best and would have to earn his spot like anyone else. What he is is another midfield option which increases our options and depth.When I watched Algeria in the WC, I enjoyed their honesty and endeavour, their background was a secondary issue. The same applies to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
He is not better than McCarthy but Gibson is very injury prone. Would be very useful to have someone like Noble in the squad IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Anything's better than Glenn Whelan FFS.
If he wants to play and is eligible, who cares...
Im just glad that the subject of the thread now makes sense ;)
I'm a bit torn. The idea of a 27-year-old player - who has repeatedly turned down the chance to represent us before - suddenly coming on board, now that he knows he'll never get an England call-up, doesn't sit well with me. I'm excited to see how the likes of Hendrick, Gibson, Meyler and Reid can do in this campaign, and someone like Noble coming in and possibly jumping the queue seems a bit distasteful.
Jack Charlton's squad, however, did have a few English-born players with tenous lineage, who declared late in their careers. Our success under Charlton inspired a whole generation of young Irish-born players - including Duff, Robbie Keane, Dunne, O'Shea and Andy Reid - to play football, win tournaments at underage level and become full internationals. If we qualify for tournaments, it generates interest, which is good for the game. To qualify, we need to play the best available players (while also laying adequate foundations to ensure that the next crop of young Irish talent is managed properly). I dont like exploiting the granny rule to this extent, but it may be a necessary evil.
This is what happens when you base the economic model of a country on mass emigration.
That is nonsense. The vast majority of people who emigrate have/had jobs over here when they leave. A significant amount of Irish people who emigrate go to America and Australia without any guarantees of work. A lot remain there when their visa's expire.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
If people don't want to remain in Ireland for whatever reason, that's their prerogative, but let's not pretend they are forced into it.
Edit: OK modern context.
As for Noble, he doesn't deserve to be in the starting 11 on merit so how is he going to be the difference in us qualifying and not qualifying? It's an oxymoron. If he does get regular playing time straight away, does this effect squad harmony? It's the same thing with Given.
Harry Kane's ruled himself out: http://www.tottenhamjournal.co.uk/to...cter_1_3749558
We really are beginning to look like beggars.
This isn't anything new. In fairness, at least he isn't messing around.
I'm sure Noble would have categorically said the same thing when he was Kane's age so no point completely ruling it out.
Noble getting a good bit of stick across all forums now. Part of me thinks the Mail 'source' could have been part-constructed by Noble himself to measure how Irish fans would react to him. If he's paying attention, he'll probably think it's more hassle than it's worth.
Just out of interest, how would people react if it were an uncapped Spanish or German player, lets say Illarremendi, Arteta or Lasogga, who just discovered a long-lost Irish granny? I'd imagine we'd be slightly more welcoming!
Where? On the West Ham forum nobody has said anything. On ybig it's just the same old 'Little Irelanders' but apart from that where is he getting stick? If you look at the poll from independent.ie so far 81% of people are in favour of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Something isn't right. Presumably, if Noble is declaring, he would have been one of the players O'Neill vaguely referred to as "close to declaring" weeks and months ago.
Yet.....
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foot...m-9668659.html
Just two weeks ago, Noble said he would never give up on his England dream.
The rte.ie article, the most 'up-voted' comments are slating him. Not a great reaction on Football365 either. Like it or not, it is a polarising issue, and you don't need to be a 'Little Irelander' or 'Armchair Nationalist' to have misgivings about it - same as people would have misgivings about Diego Costa's 'transfer' from Brazil to Spain. It's a rather demeaning element in the international game, and I'd have more respect for people like Dave Kitson who turned down an Irish call up because, in his own words, he didn't 'feel Irish', and didn't want to take a spot from a player who would value it more.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
I've already said that I'd accept it as a necessary evil, but with a certain degree of distaste.
Brilliantly said, Supreme feet.
Squad harmony? These blokes are in squads week in, week out where players are dropped, injured or have peed the manager off and lose their place. They are professionals who don't have to cry on a tricolour to find motivation. You seem to have a very idealistic view of these players. Ultimately, they live in a world of survival of the fittest and that includes international football. Earlier, you mentioned if players like Noble play for Ireland, it will affect the motivations of younger players. The reality is, if they play well enough, they will play for Ireland. If not, they won't. This is the reality of professional sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
You honestly think a 27 year old who has previously expressed zero interest in playing for Ireland declaring literally days before a qualifying campaign won't cause a little resentment? You honestly think Hendrick, Meyler, Reid, Gibson and Hoolahan wouldn't be a little ****ed off if Noble was playing at their expense? You honestly think younger players would be happy to have their path to playing for their country being restricted because of near 30 year olds declaring because they give up on playing for England?
The player isn't good enough to improve Ireland - bottom line. People said Paul Green would be the answer to our problems after he concussed the ball into the net against Algeria!
A few things worth considering. He has been eligible for over three qualifying campaigns without declaring. He was said to want a place in the first team as a condition of declaring for this country. What kind of attitude will he have if he doesn't play?
Is it so much to ask for for us to have a little self-respect and pride in the jersey?
That's all I have to say. There are no quotes from the player and just two weeks ago he said he wanted to play for England. We have been down this road before so I'm not going to get any more passionate over an average, average player.
He doesn't improve the quality of the squad, just adds another body. And if true, he'll stand in the way of the development of a future star for us, thinking Jeff Hendrick. Seeing this as another step towards the all too familar stage of a manager blaming his own inadequacies on not having the players to hand .....
At the end of the day if Noble does in fact make himself available O'Neill will pick him.
Have you a quote from him to back up that ridiculous assertion?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
If he declares for us - he is, apart from McCarthy, our best midfielder. People who think Gibson is better are ridiculous - maybe just maybe Gibson is more talented than Noble but Noble is a regular in a Permiership - something that can't be said for Gibson.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
And while I have certain misgivings about him declaring - at the end of the day if the Diego Costas of this world are doing it - who are we to turn down Noble. He's as Irish as Townsend, Houghton or any of them. If you don't cast your net as wide as you can you run the risk of falling behind - especially as the FAI couldn't give a toss about youth development.
He didn't say it, but back when Trapattoni was talking to the agents of players like Noble and O'Hara, he made a comment about how agents were telling him their player would only declare if they were guaranteed to play. He didn't specify who it was but people seem to have concluded it was Noble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
Because he's missed an entire year with injury and months before that. Anytime he's been fit, he's been first choice for his club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
That's a bit of a daft assertion, it's as much to do with cultural & social factors as economic rationale.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Except you have to have the talent to develop in the first place...you could invest billions in domestic soccer at a youth level, but there's no guarantee it's going to develop lots of quality international players!Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
Our pool is spread quite thinly, given soccer is not our national sport so it's always going to be a problem IMO.
Otherwise a good post, though don't share those misgivings. If anyone improves the Irish team and they're eligible (>1% DNA will do for me) and the other players accept them, who cares...
Saying Noble is better than the rest is very subjective, and nothing I'd agree with. We're not comparing Diego Costa with Conor Sammon here, no disrespect to Diego Costa intended. The assumption is Noble will apply himself to the best of his abilities but he's been sitting on the fence for countless years so why entertain Noble's whim and devalue our team this way?
I'm not all that gone on this, to be honest. However, we'd be in denial if we thought that there weren't numerous England-born Irish players down through the years (who we've happily supported in idealistic manner) that would have chosen to play for England if they'd ever been offered the opportunity. Noble's case has just been a bit more discernible as he, until now obviously, has perceived his chance of an England call-up to be a bit more realistic than that of some other England-born players who might have declared for us at a younger age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Out of interest, does anyone know who the oldest player to declare for us/switch has been to date?
If Noble does indeed decide to switch, he'll need to prove his commitment and worth to the team.
Well, Martin does have IFA roots. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Kane doesn't quite rule a switch out as the article's deceptive paraphrasing suggests. He just states that there has been no decision to switch allegiance, or even that there is no decision, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of there being some decision in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tottenham Journal
Noble hasn't just discovered his eligibility though. He's known about it for years and has had plenty of opportunity to declare, so the analogy doesn't quite fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Well, the aforementioned list of players will have nothing to worry about then if Nobel's not good enough to add anything... What you say is somewhat contradictory, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
He'll surely add competition and depth at the very least. It will, or should, motivate others to try harder; not offer them an excuse for self-pity if they miss out at his expense. He'll win me over if he fights for his position in the team along with the other eligible players vying for places in midfield and appears to be deserving of it.
I must point out though, I don't flatly disagree with everything you're saying on the matter. :)
I'm not flat-out against his prospective declaration (if he proves his worth), but I'd be reticent to celebrate it just yet. It's a bit like the Pennant case, and, if I recall correctly, that story sparked a few unfavourable comments from established squad players at the time in relation to johnny-come-lately types.
Noble fails my gut test. Badly.
Not sure, but Jon Macken must be up there? A month short of his 27th birthday when he played for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Has anyone ever failed the gut test and proved you wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Terry Mancini was in his 30s I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Bernie Slaven was 29 when he made his debut.
Tbf you could say much the same about a certain RMK, S.Ireland & probably at least a few others, on occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
my gut composition has changed over the years!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I'm a lot more fussy than I was at the time of Charlton and Hand. I was pleased as punch when Townsend declared but he'd probably fail now, but prove me wrong. Back then, of course, the FA was asleep at the wheel so there were fewer players then who were very clearly England holdouts who switched late. Townsend wasn't a holdout, nor was Aldridge, they were just overlooked. That's a bit different.
It's been argued above that our players are grown men and professionals so shouldn't be too miffed if a latecomer comes in and nicks their place. Maybe so, but O'Neill's insistence that we haven't the players really annoys me. We have plenty of good players. I'd prefer to put my faith in Hendrick, Gibson, McCarthy, Meyler, Quinn, Reid and Hoolahan. If Noble was to replace Whelan then maybe I'd be more inclined to see this as a progressive move :)
As SF says maybe this'll be a necessary evil.
Thinking about it from a purely footballing perspective I'd be happy to have him in the squad. He is a very accomplished midfielder, he marks well, he wins the ball and he is good at keeping possession, I would say he is the sort of high-tempo central midfielder akin to the likes of Andrews and Kavanagh (possibly a step up from both) that we are missing in our squad at the moment. In an emergency he could also play out wide, especially on the right, so again he brings a degree of versatility to the squad. If we play a 4-5-1 he could be in central midfield, on the right or at a push just behind the striker (at a push but Hoolahan would be better there), if we stuck with 4-4-2 he could be one of the central ones and if we did 4-3-3 he could be a centrally defensive player, McCarthy's shield so to speak. 21 goals and 30 odd assists in almost 200 premier league games suggests he would carry an attacking threat. I think he would compliment James McCarthy very well, and Gibson's situation at Everton is looking a bit bleaker than a year or so ago (his injuries and the additions of Barry and Besic might have caused him to slip down the pecking order). Aside from the other week he's very good at set pieces (esp penalties) and, if in the starting 11 would probably be the default taker (especially if Robbie isnt playing)
All of that is from a footballing persepective, I have mixed feelings about him playing for us in terms of desire. It does feel a little bit like we are his back up plan now he thinks the England ship has sailed, a lot of the signs in terms of timing point to this, but we don't really know either way. There can be a whole host of reasons for this sort of thing, Kevin Gallen wanted to play for us but was more or less prevented from doing so by his club (QPR), didn't McCarthy himself say his grandad's dying wish was for him to play for Ireland and that was a big factor in him playing for us? It could be he made a decision at under 21 level with a degree of duress or under undue influence and the situation has just drifted from that decision - who knows how much contact the FAI had with him in the last few years, it could be that he feels like he has a genuine split sense of nationality - did Houghton and Townsend say they both felt very Scottish/Irish, maybe there is a situation like that? If Noble does declare for us and if says his motivation for doing it is honorable (for want of a better word) then I wouldnt have a major problem with it.
if noble comes on board and plays a key role in a successful qualifying campaign, most of these concerns will fade away.
personally i don't mind if one or two squad members have questionable motives as long as the team on the pitch does the job.
It's a curious management technique both Trap and O'Neill have adopted - motivate your players by publicly talking them down on a regular basis. I don't know what coaches of other sides of our level do to get their players to play above their level, but I'm guessing it doesn't involve that. If I was being cynical, I'd say there was a bit of management going on of their own reputations.
Honestly? Do you watch West Ham? They are probably one of the worst footballing sides in the Premier League. He went down to the Championship with them a few years ago. There is no way he should be shifting McCarthy, Hoolahan, Reid, Hendrick, Gibson, Meyler or even Whelan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
It's as well to give Eunan O'Kane a reward for his form at Bournemouth, a good footballing side. If Noble is much better - I sincerely, sincerely doubt it - any benefits are negated by his reticence to actually play for Ireland and any attitude problems stemming from a lack of playing time.
I haven't even mentioned Stephen Quinn. Start the season on fire for Hull and get the shaft while someone literally declares less than a week before the campaign starts and jumps ahead of him in the pecking order. It's shameful.
Think you're underestimating Noble a bit. He's a very solid player at a poor team. And even if he does declare, it will take a few months, probably into 2015, before he is cleared to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks