Liverpool

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Originally Posted by Mayo Red

Abysmal performance tonight and speaking as a Liverpool fan, Reading certainly deserved it. Shane Long played well when he came on, winning the penalty, taking his goal very well and also tracking back when needed. I knew the minute he scored that the 'Pool were out, terrible terrible stuff from sadly an average team this season!:(

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terrible performance ... only scored with a deflected cross ..
reading should have won game 3-1 had more heart/ passion created more chances .
... summed it up when a journeyman fullback walks round opponent / nutmegs next and sends in a cross for long to win game... interviewer on utv gave benitez some tasty questions in intervew aftermatch... benitiz in fairness refused to bite on questions instead was unhappy with ref's performance and would not even admit reading deserved win saying "we had chances they had chances " must be watching a diferent game rafa .. :ball:

How that man still has a job is beyond me? A very bad manager.

That genuinely has to be the end of the line for him, 4 year deal or not he needs to be shown the door

Not to mention players like N'Gog, Carragher, Riera, and well most of the squad really

They should try and hijack the Hiddink deal, blow off this year as done and dusted and try and rebuild in the summer. If that means selling Torres for 50m so that can be invested in the squad than so be it really

Just been looking at some of the players he has sold and when you compare to them to first team players you really see that the man doesn't have a clue what to look for in the transfer market

Alonso>>>>>Aqualani
Alou Diarra>>>Lucas
Warnock>>>>Insua
Pongolle>>>>N'Gog
Bellamy>>>Kuyt
Crouch>>>>Voronin

then you also have the likes of Keane and Danny Murphy who would add a lot to the current squad

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Originally Posted by old git

terrible performance ... only scored with a deflected cross ..
reading should have won game 3-1 had more heart/ passion created more chances .
... summed it up when a journeyman fullback walks round opponent / nutmegs next and sends in a cross for long to win game... interviewer on utv gave benitez some tasty questions in intervew aftermatch... benitiz in fairness refused to bite on questions instead was unhappy with ref's performance and would not even admit reading deserved win saying "we had chances they had chances " must be watching a diferent game rafa .. :ball:

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Didn't once hear him blame the ref. The interviewer tried to put the words in his mouth i'll give you that but from what i saw of it it he was actually blaming his players for how they defended leading up to the peno. Reading deserved their win.

Long didn't learn to fall like that at City :D
He got a kick, not enough to make him go down but who wouldn't have I guess.
Liverpool were woeful, Benayouns one on one was the chance, when he fluffed it, that was that.
Didn't see any post match stuff but Aquilani was hauled to the ground in extra time, maybe that was what Rafa was talking about but they'd still have lost on pens.

bloody missed the game. Gutted about that. Nothing beats walking in to an office full of Liverpool fans after another defeat :). All but one want Rafa out now.

can you imagine poor old Maxi Rodriguez in the crowd, wondering what the hell have I got myself into here.

I don't understand what diehard Liverpool or pro-Rafa fans see in him.

Apparantly Ronnie Whelan has come out and said Rafa has to go. I amn't a Liverpool fan but I have to agree with Whelan.

Even the much maligned Gerard Houlier won more trophies than Benitez and it was his squad of players who won the European Cup.

Benitez can't blame a lack of funds, he's spent tens of millions already.

I also think Benitez is one of these managers that has to buy success. Surely there comes a time when you have 11 half decent players on the pitch, tell them how to play and keep it tight and all that and get a result.

Ronnie Whelan was part of the legendary 80's team that delivered 6 or 7 league titles, a number of FA cups and doubles, a couple of European Cups. He's more entitled to his opinion than most fans who contributed nothing to Liverpool's succsss.

Anyone who thinks Benitez is going to deliver a league title or another Champions League is deluded. Liverpool don't have the players, they have only one world class striker and when he gets injured they struggle to beat anyone. The reason they don't have the players is Benitez wasted money in the transfer market and failed to find a Torress understudy.

Great club but Benitez has brought it as far as he can.

not seen Reder on here for a while. It would be interesting to hear his take.

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Originally Posted by papa-j

Based on that in order to compete with UTD/Chelsea over a full season we need a top left back, centre back, 2 wingers and a striker about 70 millions worth - no chance of that:o

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How much did Scholes, Beckham, Neville, Giggs, Sharp and co cost Man Utd?

That's right, nothing.

Even Cantona and Ronaldo were bought relatively cheaply.

Is that not the problem with Benitez? He needs to spend tens of millions to achieve success. Has one home grown Liverpool player of note come through under Benitez? Carragher and Gerard were there before Benitez. Since he arrived, no-one from the Liverpool youth team has become a first team regular.

Look at Man Utd on the other hand where Ferguson continues to bring through players like Johny Evans, Obertan, and a couple of others. I know they aren't world class, but they are good enough to beat most teams and challenge for the title.

Benitez even had a chance to get Michael Owen from Newcastle but turned down the chance. Owen is still a good finished and Ferguson saw that.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

Even Cantona and Ronaldo were bought relatively cheaply.

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Cantona cost £1.2m in November 1991. Not much by today's standards but a lot back ten, considering Shearer's £3.3m move to Blackburn a few months later was a English record.

Ronaldo cost £12m when he was 18 years old. That's not cheap at all.

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Originally Posted by superfrank

Cantona cost £1.2m in November 1991. Not much by today's standards but a lot back ten, considering Shearer's £3.3m move to Blackburn a few months later was a English record.

Ronaldo cost £12m when he was 18 years old. That's not cheap at all.

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Both signings were cheap when you way up what they gave back to the club.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

How much did Scholes, Beckham, Neville, Giggs, Sharp and co cost Man Utd?

That's right, nothing.

Even Cantona and Ronaldo were bought relatively cheaply.

Is that not the problem with Benitez? He needs to spend tens of millions to achieve success. Has one home grown Liverpool player of note come through under Benitez? Carragher and Gerard were there before Benitez. Since he arrived, no-one from the Liverpool youth team has become a first team regular.

Look at Man Utd on the other hand where Ferguson continues to bring through players like Johny Evans, Obertan, and a couple of others. I know they aren't world class, but they are good enough to beat most teams and challenge for the title.

Benitez even had a chance to get Michael Owen from Newcastle but turned down the chance. Owen is still a good finished and Ferguson saw that.

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obertan was baught from bordeoux last season

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Originally Posted by Acornvilla

obertan was baught from bordeoux last season

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for how much?

bottom line is he can beat a player and get in a cross.

Let's hope Maxi Rodriguz can do that.

why do ye pick up on how much the player bought cost, why not question why noone has come through the liverpool youth system in the last few years, that should set off alarm bells at any club, how much does this system cost to run,

torres is now out for 6 weeks, benayoun for 4 weeks and gerrard for 2 weeks, 3 players and the team will fall to pieces, wheras you look at UTD who have had ferdinand, vidic, brown, o shea, neville, van der sar, and heargaves, plus others throught the season, with that many player out they are achieveing way above expectations,

liverpool wont have a decent team for the next few years, next decade if they dont get rid of there manager, but the sad fact is they jumped the gun giving him a new contract before he won anything, and now itll cost millions the get rid of him, when would hes previous contract have expired?,

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

for how much?

bottom line is he can beat a player and get in a cross.

Let's hope Maxi Rodriguz can do that.

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3 million plus add ons

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Originally Posted by don ramo

why do ye pick up on how much the player bought cost, why not question why noone has come through the liverpool youth system in the last few years, that should set off alarm bells at any club, how much does this system cost to run.

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I picked up on it.

Granted Utd have spent big over the years, but a lot of their players in the last 20 years have come through the youth system or were bought young for a pittance.

Thinking of John O'Shea, Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Beckham, Wellbeck, Gibson, Evans, Macheda, Foster, Brown, Gillespie and others. They get regular games for Man Utd and when give the squad strength in depth. Some of them aren't world beaters, but Ferguson gets the best out of them.

Arsenal also have a continuous supply of young home grown players coming through who are pushing for first team spots.

Alex Ferguson is also able to get the best out of players supposedly past it, Michael Owen, Sheringham, Giggs, and others.

Benitez chopping and changing hasn't helped and he really p*ssed off one of his best players, Alonso, in his pursuit of Gareth Barry.

At least previous Liverpool managers were able to cultivate young strikers like Fowler, McManaman and Owen as well as Rednapp, Murphy, Gerard in midfield and Carragher in defence.

Benitez has been there five years and hasn't brought through one young player of note. Instead he has to go out and pay big money every time he wants a new player or else get flops for free. Buying success seems to be all he knows.

emmet has a point there. ngog and spearing(very rarely) are the only two that get any game time

The key question is why the turnaround from last season.

A few thoughts:

Gerrard and Torres are not fit and are both playing badly

Both are sicknotes and it is not natural for both to be out so often for so long. Torres has a serious problem and Gerrard approaching the end

Alonso a big loss

Liverpool in many games last year were rubbish but they were good enough in enough games and they were awesome in some, especially madrid, where they were almost unstoppable

However last season they played completely differently to most of the other sides. Man U, Chelse, Arse, all play possession and keep-ball.

Last season Liverpool were extremely high tempo high pressure and it is very difficult to maintain that - and significantly, it is easy to counter with some basic planning and with some problems in personnel

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

Didn't once hear him blame the ref. The interviewer tried to put the words in his mouth i'll give you that but from what i saw of it it he was actually blaming his players for how they defended leading up to the peno. Reading deserved their win.

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yes interviewer was doing his best to put words in his mouth.. but he did after 2-3 attempts by interviewer asking was he unhappy about refs performance say yes ... but in fairness interviewer was really giving him a hard time and really asked him some other awkward questions about team & players that he was never going to answer on live t.v. ..

Liverpool are team made up of confidence players, Gerrard, Reina and Torres apart they dont have natural leaders on the pitch. Last season with a bit more quality and experience in the team confidence was high and the players played with a degree of freedom. This season that confidence has totally gone and when you take out the likes of those three you dont have much leadership or conviction in the team and you have a squad of merely average players. Insua, Lucas, Kuyt, Benayoun, Ngog, El Zahar, this could be a Bolton or a Spurs squad.

I do wonder about letting Hyypia go - his pace wasnt great but he could have done a job every now and then, even in central midfield perhaps. Anyone care to tell me who is top of the Bundesliga at the moment? And who has conceeded the fewest goals - I'll give you a clue a Finnish defender has played 17 times for them. He had a good mentality and was a leader.

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Originally Posted by old git

yes interviewer was doing his best to put words in his mouth.. but he did after 2-3 attempts by interviewer asking was he unhappy about refs performance say yes ... but in fairness interviewer was really giving him a hard time and really asked him some other awkward questions about team & players that he was never going to answer on live t.v. ..

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All very true.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I do wonder about letting Hyypia go -

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Well wonder no more, he wanted to go, end of story

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Originally Posted by Angus

Gerrard and Torres are not fit and are both playing badly

Both are sicknotes and it is not natural for both to be out so often for so long. Torres has a serious problem and Gerrard approaching the end

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Torres has always been a bit of a sicknote - that's arguably he ended up there rather than other "bigger" clubs. Devasting when fit, but not fit often enough.

Personally I think Benitez has taken the team as far as he can. The politics at boardroom level certainly haven't helped but I think with the turnover of players that he has overseen during his time, he has signed far too many average players. Even with the big 2 out of the team, the rest of the side should be more than capable of sustaining a high level.
Against Reading, he fielded a side full of international players against a side battling relegation in the division below....and they were outplayed.
That says it all to me now. The players don't want to fight for the club or the manager and the tactics when the big 2 are out are often negative. Time for wholescale change IMO.

Just looking at the Liverpool squad and who I would keep if I took over and it's a pretty small list tbf

Riena, Johnson, Agger, Aquilani (if a decent offer came in I'd be tempted though), Benayoun, Maxi, Kuyt, Insua, Mascherano (same as Aquilani though), Torres and Gerrard (though bids of 50m and 25m would get them from me too)

It's a pretty shocking squad in fairness

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Originally Posted by jebus

Just looking at the Liverpool squad and who I would keep if I took over and it's a pretty small list tbf

Riena, Johnson, Agger, Aquilani (if a decent offer came in I'd be tempted though), Benayoun, Maxi, Kuyt, Insua, Mascherano (same as Aquilani though), Torres and Gerrard (though bids of 50m and 25m would get them from me too)

It's a pretty shocking squad in fairness

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it wasn't that long ago that folk on here (well Liverpool fans) were saying they had a stronger squad than United!!! :D

I'd sell Gerrard. Past his best and if Inter/Man City came in with silly money for him he'd be straight out the door.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

not seen Reder on here for a while. It would be interesting to hear his take.

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He is keeping fine afaik. As a former regular match going red i'd be interested to hear what he has to say. Always good to hear fellow match goers opinions.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Torres has always been a bit of a sicknote - that's arguably he ended up there rather than other "bigger" clubs. Devasting when fit, but not fit often enough.

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Its hard for him not to be injured when you see the kicking he takes week in week out, some savage treatment at times.
I think, if offered cheaply, Fergie or Wenger would bite the hand off you for Torres.

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Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse

Against Reading, he fielded a side full of international players against a side battling relegation in the division below....and they were outplayed.

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All bar the keeper but as they say its not the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog.

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Originally Posted by razor

Its hard for him not to be injured when you see the kicking he takes week in week out, some savage treatment at times.

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Any good player takes more, but we're hardly talking 70's or 80's, and anyway my perception would be it's niggly muscle strains rather than injuries you'd "recieve".

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Originally Posted by razor

I think, if offered cheaply, Fergie or Wenger would bite the hand off you for Torres.

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Probably even if relatively expensive, point is they wouldn't pay the money that Liverpool did, and you wouldn't expect them to build all hopes around one player.

On the general squad, at this stage that's totally Rafa's doing - he can't be hiding behind it. Personally, I hope the match going Liverpool fans stay behind him (as it appears they are) and that he sees out his recent contract.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Any good player takes more,

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Theres very few better than Torres.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Probably even if relatively expensive, point is they wouldn't pay the money that Liverpool did,

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Fergie spent £30M on Berbatov, Torres cost £20M.

I agree that there are very few better than Torres but he doesn't take that much of a 'kicking' in fairness. Players are overly protected now, especially the top ones. He might be fouled a lot, as are Messi and Ronaldo to an even greater extent I would think. It's hardly the reason he is out so often. As suggested above he'd never have survived the 70's if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

He might be fouled a lot, as are Messi and Ronaldo to an even greater extent I would think. It's hardly the reason he is out so often

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Would agree about Messi but the other fella is on the floor as soon as he's breathed upon.

I think Torres hasn't had the chance to fully recover from the injuries he has sustained and these can lead to possible weaknesses in other areas.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

As suggested above he'd never have survived the 70's if that's the case.

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To be fair to the lad, he wasn't born til 1984

Its going to be a tough couple of years for Liverpool. They simply cannot afford, financially,to sack Benitez. Every penny that comes into the club, goes off servicing the debt the yanks have heaped onto the club. The only 2 ways money comes into the club is, 1- Selling players and 2- Winning trophies. If Liverpool sell their top players, they won't win anything. They wouldn't even get into the top 4. They won't win anything either with their current squad. Catch 22. Their only hope is for a take-over of the club, which doesn't even look like a runner at the moment.

Badly needed win last night just need to keep it going now. Thought Nick the Greek did well last night and against Stoke. Got his head to everything and gets stuck in. Tore the jersey off Crouch all the same!

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

Badly needed win last night just need to keep it going now. Thought Nick the Greek did well last night and against Stoke. Got his head to everything and gets stuck in. Tore the jersey off Crouch all the same!

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Yeah this is the key part. I thought Spurs missed Huddlestone and Lennon hugely. Huddlestone in particular as he is the brains of their midfield and Jenas wouldn't lace his boots. Even Assou-Ekotto was a fairly big loss as I'd rate him much higher than Bale. I'm not ignoring Liverpool's obvious absentees by the way but with the match at Anfield I think Spurs really needed to be at full strength. The disallowed goal looked very questionable and obviously the penalty was blatent, that said Liverpool were the more dangerous team overall and deserved their win, Kuyt could have had 4 or 5 in fairness. Completely agree about Kyriakos as well, they were tough games to come into and he has been more than solid, thought he was immense against Stoke.

Wolves away, then Bolton and Everton at home - Liverpool will have to pick up at least 7 points from those games to give them a margin for error with the Arsenal and City away games in the middle of Feb.

I thought they got a good result last night, but the performance wasn't great and the brittle nature of the defence could have been exposed by a better team. Spurs were a bit one-dimensional upfront. Maxi Rodriguez could turn out to be a decent player for Liverpool, he might give them that cutting edge they lack with Torres and Gerrard spending so much time in the treatment room, but they need to get him involved and up to speed soon.

Liverpool have watched the spurs home games with Stoke, Hull & Wolves, 10 men behind the ball, Spurs (especially without Lennon) lack the pace to get in behind and the creativity of Modric can be stiffled with numbers.
That said Liverpool had the better chances but Spurs had a cast iron penalty, Crouch could have sued for assault and I'm still confused about why Defoe's goal was ruled out, offside...foul....away team at a skyball big 4 club....
Liverpool need to be a lot better to haul in City imo, I'll be surprised if they get 4th.

What's Torres worth when fit?

80 million? If Ibrahimovich is worth that, Torres is definitely worth it.

Would any Liverpool fan not be tempted to accept that money if offered for Torres? Good bit of business I would say.

Then use the money to build a balanced team. Buy two or three good strikers, buy a couple of midfielders and a couple of centre backs.

You'd build a good team for 80 million.

City have spent a lot more than that and aren't title contenders.

The only thing that sets Liverpool apart form the terry try hards like Spurs & Villa etc.. is Torres & Gerrard, they're the 2 who can win games single handed, for Arsenal see Fabergas & Arshavin, Chelsea Lampard, Drogba, Utd Rooney and... well Rooney really.
Spurs, Villa even City really have good players even really good players but no one of that calibre, once you start to sell those type of players you're in trouble imo.
Utd's gamble with Ronaldo looks like backfiring, 80m might buy 5 or 6 Valencia's but it won't but Ronaldo's 20+ goals a season back.