Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

Any chance of the two or three junior clubs in Navan merging to form a new club?

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I don't think it would be necessary to merge the clubs. A town of that size needs more than 1 club, especially at senior level anyway.
It's been mentioned above that Parkvilla are the main club in the town, and really, they should have got their finger out a long time ago and developed soccer in the town much more than they did. I remember in the early noughties they were still missing teams at multiple underage age groups. I'm not sure if it was down to a lack of volunteers, facilities or just teenagers dropping out. Either way, it's poor.
Hopefully they've come on a bit more now but I always got the impression they weren't v well liked in the region. Relations were generally decent between Trim-Athboy-Kells though. Maybe that's a natural consequence of them being the big town in the area so the small towns were always trying to prove they were just as good as Navan.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Isn't it "putting the cart before the horse" to look at a town/district/county/region to see if they could rustle up a club to join the senior set-up, esp if that club is amateur, or even "generously expensed", never mind semi-pro?

Surely you need to start with already established clubs which have the potential to step up at some stage, of which there must be many throughout the country?

Which means giving them a proper structure within which to operate, so that the best of them (playing standard, stadium, facilities, structure, finances, support etc) can then make the step-up sustainably and organically.

I mean, if anyone had suggested a generation ago that eg Ballinamallard (fFounded 1975) or Warrenpoint Town (1987) would ever achieve senior status in NI as semi-pro teams, they'd have been laughed at. Or Dungannon Swifts (1949) a generation before that.

Yet all three (and others) made their way up from the bottom of the pyramid to the top, where they've all proven a welcome addition.

Of course, to set up a structure to facilitate that sort of evolution in ROI could take a decade (minimum) or two (more likely). But that is surely an argument for starting now, rather than grasping at some other process, no matter how unsuitable, simply because it gives a veneer of quick "progress"

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Whilst I agree with the general gist of what you're saying here, it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone like the FAI to analyse which large population centres (i.e. places with the key basic ingredient of potential support) don't currently have an LOI club, and speak to existing clubs thetre to encourage them to aspire to senior status in the future.

I think the examples you've given from the north are flawed. Warrenpoint got relegated last month after a fairly poor season in which I think they didn't register a win until after the split in the table? They were clearly out of their depth in the top division, and will b einteretsing to see if they make it back again. I doubt Ballinamallard will be troubling the top division in NI again any time soon either, and if they do will not be there for long. Even Dungannon, who've made a cup final, Europe etc over the last decade or so, tend to be near the lower end of the table and get poor crowds. If clubs with bigger potential like Ards ever get their act together again, you could see the likes of Dungannon fall out of the top tier to make way for them. So I don't think relatively brief flourishes with the big boys for the likes of Warrenpoint and Ballinamallard proves much to be honest. If anything, it shows the IL's lack of strength within the IL that very small clubs like them can rise to the top table.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Whilst I agree with the general gist of what you're saying here, it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone like the FAI to analyse which large population centres (i.e. places with the key basic ingredient of potential support) don't currently have an LOI club, and speak to existing clubs thetre to encourage them to aspire to senior status in the future.

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Nothing unreasonable at all about "encouraging them to aspire etc", in fact it should be a key responsibility for the FAI to grow the game.

But that is a whole lot different from suddenly elevating a club which had never showed much sign of long-term sustainability at their new level (eg Cabinteely), or from magically conjuring up a new club entirely and expecting it to survive (eg Kilkenny).

Rather the FAI should instead be implementing and supporting a structure within which the best and most ambitious clubs should be able to find their level, whether top, second or third tier.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

I think the examples you've given from the north are flawed. Warrenpoint got relegated last month after a fairly poor season in which I think they didn't register a win until after the split in the table? They were clearly out of their depth in the top division, and will b einteretsing to see if they make it back again. I doubt Ballinamallard will be troubling the top division in NI again any time soon either, and if they do will not be there for long. Even Dungannon, who've made a cup final, Europe etc over the last decade or so, tend to be near the lower end of the table and get poor crowds. If clubs with bigger potential like Ards ever get their act together again, you could see the likes of Dungannon fall out of the top tier to make way for them. So I don't think relatively brief flourishes with the big boys for the likes of Warrenpoint and Ballinamallard proves much to be honest. If anything, it shows the IL's lack of strength within the IL that very small clubs like them can rise to the top table.

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Are you saying that any team which is unlikely ever to win the title should not be allowed into the top tier? In that case, you can eg reduce the EPL to half a dozen teams. And how many wqould you allow iinto the LOI PD?

Instead, all those three offer semi-professional football at senior level, while attracting sufficient support locally to live modestly within their means.

Now I can't see that Swifts will ever threaten the big IL teams from Belfast etc, but instead have to settle for permanent mid-to-low table status but so what? Would you tell eg Motherwell they shouldn't be in the SPL, Crystal Palace in the EPL or Finn Harps in the PD?

Simply put, they and the other two have successfully and sustainably brought senior football to a new region, and if Ballinamallard and Warrenpoint's natural level is the second, or even third tier, so what? Would you deride eg Cheltenham Town, Peterhead or Longford similarly?

As it happens, Mallards were pretty competitive in the Championship last season, before falling away in the last couple of months, so may come again. While Warrenpoint will be replaced, ironically*, by near neighbours Newry City AFC. Either way, both should be alright at that level for another bit and even if they're not, there is still a third tier for them to play in, alongside eg former top tier clubs like Bangor and Distillery, or newer arrivals like Ballymacash and Dollingstown.

Which i thought was the whole point of a pyramid: teams may rise up and down according to their ability, means, ambition and (semi-)professionalism.


* - I say "ironically", since when the original NCFC folded for financial reasons, most of their players went to the Point, before Newry's fans, who had held onto the Showgrounds, formed a Phoenix Club and climbed the NIFL pyramid back to the top level.

Killkenny were not magically conjured up. They were founded as EMFA in 1966. They changed their name to improve their catchment area as did Galway United (Claddagh Rovers) and Dundalk (Great Northern Railway).

I think we need to build actual regional intermediate leagues and bring back the A-Championship at the same time. The new A-Championship should consist of the current LOI youth teams like Kildare & Mayo and reserve sides, while the regional leagues should actually reflect the counties in each province whilst relegating to/promoting from the district leagues. That'll give the current FA franchises a chance, if they fail they'll be replaced by clubs from the regional leagues.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen;2114624[B

]Isn't it "putting the cart before the horse" to look at a town/district/county/region to see if they could rustle up a club to join the senior set-up[/B], esp if that club is amateur, or even "generously expensed", never mind semi-pro?

Surely you need to start with already established clubs which have the potential to step up at some stage, of which there must be many throughout the country?

Which means giving them a proper structure within which to operate, so that the best of them (playing standard, stadium, facilities, structure, finances, support etc)


I mean, if anyone had suggested a generation ago that eg Ballinamallard (fFounded 1975) or Warrenpoint Town (1987) would ever achieve senior status in NI as semi-pro teams, they'd have been laughed at. Or Dungannon Swifts (1949) a generation before that.

Yet all three (and others) made their way up from the bottom of the pyramid to the top, where they've all proven a welcome addition.

Of course, to set up a structure to facilitate that sort of evolution in ROI could take a decade (minimum) or two (more likely). But that is surely an argument for starting now, rather than grasping at some other process, no matter how unsuitable, simply because it gives a veneer of quick "progress"

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I doubt there would be too many that would argue against what yer saying. It would help solve the little rivalries, obstructionism, little Englander types, if there is a meritocracy pyramid. There would still be hurdles within such a structure when clubs are denied promotion due to inadequate facilities for example. Within this development I dont think we should rule out expediting clubs to higher levels if they show that meet criteria. Both organic growth and fast track can be done. Getting to the point where the whole footballing community is on the same page is what takes up time, the carrot and the stick will be needed, In the mean time the LoI/FAI et al need to show that it is better to be included in the process than be isolationist and left behinds

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

Killkenny were not magically conjured up. They were founded as EMFA in 1966. They changed their name to improve their catchment area as did Galway United (Claddagh Rovers) and Dundalk (Great Northern Railway).

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You're quite right, I should have cited Sporting Fingal. (A mistake made more inexcusable since I was always tickled by EMFA and the moniker "Every Man a Football Artist"!).

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

I think we need to build actual regional intermediate leagues and bring back the A-Championship at the same time... ... while the regional leagues should actually reflect the counties in each province whilst relegating to/promoting from the district leagues. That'll give the current FA franchises a chance, if they fail they'll be replaced by clubs from the regional leagues.

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Intermediate grade football being an essential element of any pyramid (obv), then I agree that it should be organised on a regional basis.

However, I don't understand why you cleave to a County set-up as the basis. A county set-up may suit GAA, just as a Provincial set-up suits rugby, but football is different, in several respects. For example, Co.Louth (population 128k, area 826km sq) supports two senoir LOI clubs, while neighbouring Co.Meath (195k, 2342km sq) has never done so. Ditto eg Cork and (ahem) Kerry. There must be a reason why this is so, and until that changes somehow, you must work round it.

Which all comes back to my long held opinion that it is clubs, not towns, cities, counties,provinces etc which matter, and which must be the building blocks of any pyramid, regardless of what theoretical "catchment" or geographical designation thay're located in.

In particular, you need clubs established in what I would call "proper" football towns eg Sligo Rovers, Finn Harps or Derry City.

Meaning I would suggest splitting ROI into, say, half a dozen roughly equal Regional Associations, plus maybe Dublin, or even Dublin North and South, each to adminsiter the game at a local level, with Junior leagues providing approximately equal standards of play, resources and facilities et.

From there you could promote the top clubs to participate in Intermediate grade football, with correspondingly higher standards. These might be divided eg into Intermediate North, Intermediate Midlands and Intermediate South, each supporting its own divisional set-up

And once you've estabished those, each would promote a single club to the third tier of Senior football, and so on.

Meaning that every single club has (in theory) the opportunity of getting promoted from bottom to top on a performance basis, providing they meet the minimum standards of stadium, facilities, finance and administration required for each level along the way.

As Ive said before, if little old Norn Iron could achieve this from its own much more modest resource base, then there is absolutely no reason why the ROI couldnt also.

Which is why I cannot understand why the FAI doesn't simply look north for a template which they could then adapt to suit their own particular requirements:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe..._league_system

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Nothing unreasonable at all about "encouraging them to aspire etc", in fact it should be a key responsibility for the FAI to grow the game.

But that is a whole lot different from suddenly elevating a club which had never showed much sign of long-term sustainability at their new level (eg Cabinteely), or from magically conjuring up a new club entirely and expecting it to survive (eg Kilkenny).

Rather the FAI should instead be implementing and supporting a structure within which the best and most ambitious clubs should be able to find their level, whether top, second or third tier.

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I agree. I didn't say clubs should be magicked up. I don't support franchise football. Kilkenny City were an established club before they joined the LOi in 1985 as EMFA btw. Kildare is probably the example you were looking for (?)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Are you saying that any team which is unlikely ever to win the title should not be allowed into the top tier? In that case, you can eg reduce the EPL to half a dozen teams. And how many wqould you allow iinto the LOI PD?

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No I was just pointing out that if those clubs are poster children for progress up a pyramid, then IMO it's flawed.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Instead, all those three offer semi-professional football at senior level, while attracting sufficient support locally to live modestly within their means. n

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Warrenpoint certainly don't attract enough interest locally for anything. Aren't they kept going by a benefactor ? They get literally a few dozen home fans at games - so once you exculde family and friends of players, they essentially have damn-as-near-to no fans. That's not sustainable for any club.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Simply put, they and the other two have successfully and sustainably brought senior football to a new region

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Warrenpoint is essentially a commuter town for/adjunct to Newry. I therefore don't think it's fair to claim they've evangelised senior football into virgin territory. The Mallards definitely have. Dungannon less so, as Armagh and Portadown are both less than 15 miles away (so it's hardly an area uncatered for in the game).

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

No I was just pointing out that if those clubs are poster children for progress up a pyramid, then IMO it's flawed.

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Really?

Ballinamallard came from nowhere first in Junior football, then to Intermediate level and finally to senior level in a little over 30 years, in a small county which had never hosted Senior football before. True they needed a rich local benefactor to provide the seed corn, but by the time this was discontinued, they had sufficient support within the community to be self-sustaining, including owning a ground and training facilities which are at least as good as those at a few LOI FD clubs.

While Warrenpoint equally came from nowhere and maintained Senior football in an otherwise GAA-dominated area while the established local club in Newry was out of contention. True, they needed a benefactor - nothing wrong with that so long as he's reliable - and they might fall back eg to the 3rd tier or below, but so what? I mean, who has been damaged by any of that?

As for Swifts, if they took longer, that was only because there was no pyramid for the first 40-odd years, but since then they've gone on to become firmly established at Senior level, with a ground I'd guess is better than several FD clubs. And while they may be geographically close to Armagh or Portadown to the East, their catchment is actually Tyrone and further West.

All three have provided an outlet for locals to become attached to football at all levels (fans, administraors, coaches, etc), while providing a modest p-t wage for players, many of whom have gone on to bigger IL clubs, or even further eg internationals Little, Carroll and McGinn, at Rangers, Man U and Celtic.

I guarantee you none of this would have happened without a pyramid; instead theyd likely be tootling along in the Fermanagh & Western, Mid-Ulster or Newry & Districts Leagues etc.

And more pertinently to this thread, I have no doubt whatever that there must be loads of clubs* in the LOI who could make similar progress, but for the want of a comparable pyramid, it simply isn't happening.


* - Athboy has twice the population of Ballinamallard, for instance.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Warrenpoint certainly don't attract enough interest locally for anything. Aren't they kept going by a benefactor ? They get literally a few dozen home fans at games - so once you exculde family and friends of players, they essentially have damn-as-near-to no fans. That's not sustainable for any club.

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Yes, they have a benefactor, but even after he left for Cliftonville for a period, they still got by. And last season, when results were terrible, they still averaged nearly 500 paying spectators a game. Of course that was boosted by away support for the Blues and Glens etc, but even then they got 500-odd eg for Larne and Glenavon. Maybe their players all have extraordinarily big families?
But as I said, even if they fall away now, what will have been the harm?:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...-41584303.html

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Warrenpoint is essentially a commuter town for/adjunct to Newry. I therefore don't think it's fair to claim they've evangelised senior football into virgin territory. The Mallards definitely have. Dungannon less so, as Armagh and Portadown are both less than 15 miles away (so it's hardly an area uncatered for in the game).

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See above.

I thought Kildare essentially started out as a Newbridge Town project, and adopted the name to broaden their appeal?

There's plenty of clubs outside of NI that show that the pyramid set-up isn't flawed at all. Cove Rangers and Kelty Hearts winning the third and fourth tiers in Scotland last season. Wimbledon and Wigan in England (technically elected to the league, but from what ordinarily would have been promotion spots, not randomly selected by the FA or elected because they happened to have asked). Hoffenheim and Red Bull Leipzig in Germany.

Give clubs a means and reason to progress, and the problem of where best to look for new clubs will sort itself. And as we saw in the discussion on the comparison between the LoI and the Conference in England, there'll be a beneficial trickle-down effect too.

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Originally Posted by culloty82

I thought Kildare essentially started out as a Newbridge Town project, and adopted the name to broaden their appeal?

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I think also Newbridge were worried about losing their place in the LSL if the jump didn't work out (like what happened Tralee Dynamoes in Kerry) so needed to set up a new club for the LoI.

Ross County and Inverness would be less controversial Scottish examples, as Cove and Kelty are both widely regarded as new Gretnas, who would collapse whenever the owner pulls the plug, likewise Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig are both deeply unpopular in Germany for being bankrolled by billionaires. Eibar and Villarreal are excellent examples of small-town clubs who climbed a pyramid in a sustainable manner, as indeed are Italy's Sassuolo.

There is another indirect advantage to a pyramid which i think is pertinent to the LOI. That is, whenever a club gets into financial difficulties, something hardly unkown in the LOI, there is enormous pressure on the FAI to keep them going since there are no obvious alternatives ready to step up in their place.

And if the club should go bust, there is similar pressure to parachute back in whatever replacement club emerges from the remains. Whereas if you had a proper pyramid to supply a replacement, ok the replacement might not be of a similar status, but this should prove a disincentive to owners to bugger about with their finances in the first place.

While dodgy owners of a "phoenix club" might think twice if thy had to start again at a lower level and work their way up.

A good example from the IL is Bangor (founded 1918):
"Bangor enjoyed the most successful period in its history during the 1990s when the club qualified for Europe for the first time in its history after finishing second in the Irish League. This success was followed by winning the Irish Cup in 1993 after two replays against bitter rivals, Ards. Paul Byrne, who scored the winning goal with the last kick of the game, moved on to Celtic.

In October 2007, the club announced that a deal had been struck with property developers to sell land at the rear of the ground and use this to clear all debts. On 13 May 2008, it was announced that Bangor had secured a place in the new 12-team IFA Premiership for the 2008/09, season despite only having finished third in the IFA Intermediate League First Division in 2007/08.

Unfortunately, their stay in the Premiership only lasted a season as midway through the campaign the Club decided not to re-apply for the Domestic Licence that was required to compete at this level. On 1 February 2009, the club announced that it would not be renewing its domestic licence for 2009–10 and would therefore resign from the IFA Premiership at the end of the season due to financial reasons and low attendances at matches."

The point being that with a pyramid, there was at least somewhere for them to go to maintain football in the town.

Meanwhile, they look finally to have got their act together in the 3rd tier, and are redeveloping their ground, as they aim to get back into the Premiership again:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...ht-bid-3262754

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Whereas if you had a proper pyramid to supply a replacement,...
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That's an argument for the third tier as well. Cobh Ramblers had a few years in the A Championship. An LoI club might have to step down. One would hope that a third tier over 5 years or so would have 2 or 3 clubs qualifying for a First Division licence.

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Originally Posted by legendz

That's an argument for the third tier as well. Cobh Ramblers had a few years in the A Championship. An LoI club might have to step down. One would hope that a third tier over 5 years or so would have 2 or 3 clubs qualifying for a First Division licence.

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Agree, but you cannot stop there - you need an Intermediate grade beneath the 3 Senior Divisions, and a further Junior structure beneath that, to keep the higher clubs "honest", via Promotion & Relegation etc, as well as providing an incentive to the lower clubs.

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Originally Posted by legendz

That's an argument for the third tier as well. Cobh Ramblers had a few years in the A Championship. An LoI club might have to step down. One would hope that a third tier over 5 years or so would have 2 or 3 clubs qualifying for a First Division licence.

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Werent Galway Utd in the A Championship during the 5 yr spell away from LOI?

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

Werent Galway Utd in the A Championship during the 5 yr spell away from LOI?

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Nope! During United's absence Salthill & Mervue were the only show in town. I recall United briefly fielding an underage squad that seriously flopped. Salthill briefly rebranded as SD Galway in an attempt to win former United fans, that also failed miserably.

My father, from rural Galway, worked in Mervue at the time. He recalls a friend telling him he should obviously start supporting Mervue now. He told him he'd rather watch his local junior club in the third tier of the Galway district league, his friend was quite bemused at that statement but I think it speaks to why clubs like Kerry FC have a chance.

I lost interest in the LOI and football in general during that whole ****show. I only came back to it during covid. I suppose it would have been avoided if Mervue & Salthill were relegated like they should have been, but a lot of people in Galway are still skeptical of a pyramid for this very reason. For them, Galway United is essentially the county board. I think there should be room for counties that want to all row in behind the one club and towns that want to go it alone.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

I think there should be room for counties that want to all row in behind the one club and towns that want to go it alone.

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There is room. If the local district league are rowing behind one club, the club is off to a good start. There are standout regions without LoI representation. Is there a standout town?

Mullingar, as mentioned above, would seem one, and Clonmel is arguably another candidate, only for the rivalry between Clonmel Celtic and St Michael's halving its potential.

A businessman imported a team in 2001 to try and gain entry for Mullingar to the Eircom League! Neither Mullingar nor Clonmel joined the A Championship 08-11 era. They haven't stepped up to the youth leagues either.
Tipperary South had reasonable representation success in the old Oscar Traynor Cup. If Tipperary South have any appetite for LoI football, a representative team in the youth leagues would be the route to take.
Will Westmeath benefit from an Athlone v Mullingar rivalry? If anyone in Mullingar can match the appetite of 20 years ago, the youth leagues again are the place to build a team. Do Clonmel and Mullingar have a football ground acceptable for the First Division?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

There is another indirect advantage to a pyramid which i think is pertinent to the LOI. That is, whenever a club gets into financial difficulties, something hardly unkown in the LOI, there is enormous pressure on the FAI to keep them going since there are no obvious alternatives ready to step up in their place.

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I'm not sure this is true tbh. You only need to look at the many clubs that have dropped out of the league to see it.

Can you give examples of clubs where the FAI has been under enormous presure to keep them going, and has acted as a result? Beyond stepping in to save the stadium for future football use, the FAI seems generally happy to NOT bail out LOI clbs. There are plenty of examples where it has watched as clubs have gone bankrupt (even big ones like Cork).