Celtic Cup thread

Player selection isn't the real problem issue for me. My concern is how predictable we are. When Trapattoni came in the focus was on organisation and retention of possession. This was evident in the friendly away to Norway. However we have progressively become one-dimensional since the start of Trapattoni's tenure to the extent that our tactics can be summarised as simply long balls to Doyle. If Trapattoni wants to go the long ball that's his choice as manager but for that tactic to be effective the two central midfielder need to press forward. Currently our central midfielders' instructions are to sit in front of the back for and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by TrapAPony

The rest : Wes Hoolahan, Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran.....and Rory Delap, Steven Reid, Stephen Carr, Stephen Ireland.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Should have left them down, at this stage, even some of the oldies could add to the pool in the short-term. But people, well Trap mainly, are too blinkered to see that.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Hardly. And surely 'blinkered' to ignore all your potential playing pool....

Only a fool would make such a generalisation.

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Oh right so when you said 'oldies' you meant long-in-the-tooth footballers such as Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran and Wes Hoolahan? No need for fool - you're the one who referred to TrapAPony's list in particular...

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

While Trapp hasn't been averse to introducing new players - its been in fits and starts and his retention of certain players are creating a feeling of inertia eg, many feel Kilbane is past it, questions over McShane's ability at International level etc etc.

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True, and as Tets and others have pointed out Trap has made new introductions and in the cases of St Ledger, Andrews, Best and Green, has promoted to first team action after only one or two looks. It's also worth pointimg out that, off the top of my head, McShane hasn't figured on the pitch since Brazil 12 months ago, and right now Kilbane remains in the no. 3 shirt because nobody currently fit has made any proper claim to that position. That's not Trap's fault. Would people here really prefer Ward over KK against Macedonia? I wouldn't.

There are many reasons to be frustrated by Trap's inertia - Foley, the lingering McCarthy issue, his view on Coleman - but it has barely been mentioned that Stokes' good form has been rewarded with a call up. He was criticised for leaving him out when he was playing less well.

My current concerns about Trap are:
He hasn't been creative enough with regard to plugging certain holes
We haven't made any progress cutting out the sloppy goals that cost us points last time out. In fact it's worse.
We're too cagey and it has now been shown that our "two banks of four" / catenaccio attempts at sitting off isn't working. We have executed this very badly in friendlies like Australia, Norway and Poland and at least once competitively - Russia. We used to be hard to score against, now it's pretty easy to score against us.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

(Fwiw, as an NI fan I'd be happy for him to miss out against us in May, as well.

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That has to be taken as a complement.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Oh right so when you said 'oldies' you meant long-in-the-tooth footballers such as Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran and Wes Hoolahan? No need for fool - you're the one who referred to TrapAPony's list in particular...

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Actually I didn't mean them specifically. But then guess you never bothered to read the original post I was responding to??

Sigh. Don't know why I'm bothering but maybe you'd care to review the 'original post' that you maintained TrapAPony should leave intact...(paraphrasing in the middle for clarity)

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Originally Posted by TrapAPony

The rest : Wes Hoolahan, Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran.....and Rory Delap, Steven Reid, Stephen Carr, Stephen Ireland.

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Originally Posted by TrapAPony

Got rid of ''The rest''

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Should have left them down, at this stage, even some of the oldies could add to the pool in the short-term.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

But Reid, Carr and Ireland arn't available for selection...

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Naw don't mean them. Fool.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Oh right so.. you meant long-in-the-tooth footballers such as Barry Maguire, Stephen O'Halloran and Wes Hoolahan?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Actually I didn't mean them specifically. But then guess you never bothered to read the original post I was responding to??

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So you were either referring to Rory Delap from TrapAPony's 'the rest' or you didn't mean them at all and were misleadingly referring to something totally different when you said 'should have left them down'.

Maybe cyber-hearing my Nordie accent has enraged you past the ability to comprehend...:confused:
(Edit - for fear of starting this again let me clarify I DON'T mean your anti-north, just you seem to get a little frayed about it's existence.)

No, it's just you being a pedant. And the only annoying thing remotely 'Nordie' is yet another example of a closed mind, on this issue. But to be fair, it's not just exclusive to that geographical area!
;)

[QUOTE=Stuttgart88;1445331]True, and as Tets and others have pointed out Trap has made new introductions and in the cases of St Ledger, Andrews, Best and Green, has promoted to first team action after only one or two looks. It's also worth pointimg out that, off the top of my head, McShane hasn't figured on the pitch since Brazil 12 months ago, and right now Kilbane remains in the no. 3 shirt because nobody currently fit has made any proper claim to that position. That's not Trap's fault. Would people here really prefer Ward over KK against Macedonia? I wouldn't.

There are many reasons to be frustrated by Trap's inertia - Foley, the lingering McCarthy issue, his view on Coleman - but it has barely been mentioned that Stokes' good form has been rewarded with a call up. He was criticised for leaving him out when he was playing less well.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

My current concerns about Trap are:
He hasn't been creative enough with regard to plugging certain holes
We haven't made any progress cutting out the sloppy goals that cost us points last time out. In fact it's worse.
We're too cagey and it has now been shown that our "two banks of four" / catenaccio attempts at sitting off isn't working. We have executed this very badly in friendlies like Australia, Norway and Poland and at least once competitively - Russia. We used to be hard to score against, now it's pretty easy to score against us.

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Spot on. But can he change his tactics? Johnny Giles' last year in charge of the Irish team reminds me a lot of what is happening now under Trap. The team began to suffocate under Giles' system. And Giles simply could not change his tactics. He persisted with the slow build up play and Givens up front when it was clear to everyone other than Johnny that this style of play did not suit us and Givens was years past his best. I really hope I'm wrong but if Trap persists with the Green, Whelan, Andrews 2of 3 in midfield and Kilbane at LB then we won't beat Macedonia let alone qualify. I'll bet players like Dunne, O'Shea and others are questioning the tactics and selections after the last two competitive games.

Welsh Squad to play us.
No Bale or Bellamy, isnt a great squad.
We're far better on paper anyway

J Brown (Blackburn), W Hennessey (Wolves), B Myhill (West Brom); D Collins (Stoke), J Collins (Aston Villa), N Eardley (Blackpool), D Gabbidon (West Ham), C Gunter (Nottingham Forest), C Morgan (Preston), S Ricketts (Bolton), A Williams (Swansea); A Crofts (Norwich), D Edwards (Wolves), A King (Leicester), J Ledley (Celtic), A Ramsey (Cardiff), D Vaughan (Blackpool); S Church (Reading), R Earnshaw (Nottingham Forest), C Evans (Sheffield United), F Eastwood (Coventry), S Morison (Millwall), H Robson-Kanu (Reading).

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Originally Posted by cornflakes

Welsh Squad to play us.
No Bale or Bellamy, isnt a great squad.
We're far better on paper anyway

J Brown (Blackburn), W Hennessey (Wolves), B Myhill (West Brom); D Collins (Stoke), J Collins (Aston Villa), N Eardley (Blackpool), D Gabbidon (West Ham), C Gunter (Nottingham Forest), C Morgan (Preston), S Ricketts (Bolton), A Williams (Swansea); A Crofts (Norwich), D Edwards (Wolves), A King (Leicester), J Ledley (Celtic), A Ramsey (Cardiff), D Vaughan (Blackpool); S Church (Reading), R Earnshaw (Nottingham Forest), C Evans (Sheffield United), F Eastwood (Coventry), S Morison (Millwall), H Robson-Kanu (Reading).

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Never noticed before but their midfield of King, Ledley, Ramsey and Vaughan are potentially very, very good. Ramsey's fitness an issue obviously, and Ledley's not set the world on fire in Scotland, but would be a more creative CM than us.

We'd have similar potential with McCarthy and Meyler involved I suppose...

Think Bellamy requested to only be involved with competitive games?

No. Gary Speed said earlier it's an issue with a chronic knee problem which restricts the number of games he can play.

Scotland squad announced: http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish...=6&newsID=7132

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Charlie Adam (Blackpool)
Barry Bannan (Aston Villa)
Phil Bardsley (Sunderland)
Cameron Bell (Kilmarnock)
Christophe Berra (Wolves)
Scott Brown (Celtic)
Gary Caldwell (Wigan Athletic)
Kris Commons (Celtic)
Graham Dorrans (West Bromwich Albion)
Darren Fletcher (Manchester United)
Craig Gordon (Sunderland)
Grant Hanley (Blackburn Rovers)
Alan Hutton (Tottenham Hotspur)
Chris Maguire (Aberdeen)
Lee McCulloch (Rangers)
Allan McGregor (Rangers)
Kenny Miller (Bursaspor)
James Morrison (West Bromwich Albion)
Steven Naismith (Rangers)
Robert Snodgrass (Leeds United)
Danny Wilson (Liverpool)
Mark Wilson (Celtic)

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The Norway friendly game was instructive. I thought at times we looked a shambles compared to an average but efficient international team that has embraced belief, organisation and discipline.
When Norway needed to, after a shaky start, they found the space down the left, other times they passed their way around Fahey and Whelan.

McCarthy apart, this is the squad. I'll wait and see what team and subs are played and how we perform against Wales.

Whatever about embracing belief (what that is I do not know), we are not lacking in organisation and discipline as defined byTrapattoni.

We have shown it in some games of course but not against Norway, they outdid us in those departments and they did with a team of ordinary enough talent.

We were the better team for the first 15-20 mins of that game. Norway were able to adapt to our gameplan at this point and were the better team from then on.

Organisation and discipline isn't something we lack. The ability to adapt, in terms of flexibility and creativity is where we come second best.

What's noteworthy about the Norwegian game is that it once again showed that teams playing with a fluid/ flexible formation can "easily" overcome our rigid, unimaginative shape.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Organisation and discipline isn't something we lack. The ability to adapt, in terms of flexibility and creativity is where we come second best.

What's noteworthy about the Norwegian game is that it once again showed that teams playing with a fluid/ flexible formation can "easily" overcome our rigid, unimaginative shape.

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Mostly right, imho, but our organisation has also been found wanting. Slovakia's equaliser? Most of the first hour against Russia?

I'm not so sure it's a matter of shape as any shape is fluid and dynamic if the players move about intelligently. I think we have failed to execute the "well organised without the ball" tactic just too often now to want to depend on it.

Against Norway we just sat back and gave away the initiative when in total control. After 20 minutes I was sure we were heading for 3-0. Moral courage, negative tactics, instructions. Whatever. We should never have conceded the initiative in that game.

Trap is just too negative full stop.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Mostly right, imho, but our organisation has also been found wanting. Slovakia's equaliser? Most of the first hour against Russia?

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I'm not sure I'd put it down to a lack of organisation as they are organised to Trapattoni's instructions. The lack of adaptability, creativity and flexibility in how Trapattoni organises the team is proving to be problematic.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm not so sure it's a matter of shape as any shape is fluid and dynamic if the players move about intelligently. I think we have failed to execute the "well organised without the ball" tactic just too often now to want to depend on it.

Against Norway we just sat back and gave away the initiative when in total control. After 20 minutes I was sure we were heading for 3-0. Moral courage, negative tactics, instructions. Whatever. We should never have conceded the initiative in that game.

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I agree but for the want of trying to avoid repetition, the players are organised and disciplined to how Trapattoni wants us to play the game. Sitting back and giving away the initiative is something we have seen many a time under Trapattoni. Cyprus for example had 60-70% of the ball the last time they played against us in Dublin.