Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by geysir

Did anything known happen in order to awaken the IFA's curiosity in 1994 about the eligibility of northern Irish nationals to play for the FAI or was it just a sudden onset of paranoia and they tried to get FIFA to take action to preempt the possible flood of talent to the FAI?
in the modern era, was Gerry Crossley the first northern born irish national to opt for the FAI in 1996?

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I know he wasn't northern-born, but it may have been related to Alan Kernaghan? He first lined out for us in 1992. Complete speculation, mind. Not aware of anything else.

Or as Paul suggests, maybe our up-turn in fortunes led to a thinking that we would pose a threat or more attractive option? May 1994, when the meeting occurred, was just before we set off the USA '94.

Edit: Just remembering that the British associations met in 1993 to come to an agreement over internal eligibility to play for their teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_e...1993_agreement

Maybe that sparked a thought-process somewhere within the IFA about the possible import of FIFA's eligibility rules?

This is what the minutes for that 1994 meeting of the Players' Status Committee stated:

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Originally Posted by FIFA

The Committee considered [the IFA]’s statement that almost any player can obtain a Republic of Ireland passport in order to secure eligibility to play for this country.

The Committee discussed this very serious matter at length and had to come to the unfortunate conclusion that FIFA cannot interfere with the decisions taken by any
country in the question of granting passports.

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That's outlined at paragraph 58 of Kearns: http://web.archive.org/web/201107210...ard%202071.pdf

I do think the IFA exaggerated it a bit. Any country can bestow citizenship upon anyone they wish, be it honourary or whatever, but for them to have given the impression that "almost any player" could just obtain Irish citizenship for the purpose of securing eligibility to play for the FAI was stretching it a bit. It's not as if the FAI were petitioning the Irish government to grant passports to Brazilians (like what later happened in Qatar).

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I do think the IFA exaggerated it a bit. Any country can bestow citizenship upon anyone they wish, be it honourary or whatever, but for them to have given the impression that "almost any player" could just obtain Irish citizenship for the purpose of securing eligibility to play for the FAI was stretching it a bit. It's not as if the FAI were petitioning the Irish government to grant passports to Brazilians (like what later happened in Qatar).

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In all likelihood the IFA were referring to all players north and south, not every player in the universe.
Perhaps you do not credit the IFA with having one tiny morsel of common sense? :) (the failsafe assumption).
Then again, who can really tell what they were intending.

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Originally Posted by geysir

In all likelihood the IFA were referring to all players north and south, not every player in the universe.
Perhaps you do not credit the IFA with having one tiny morsel of common sense? :) (the failsafe assumption).
Then again, who can really tell what they were intending.

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I did realise the likelihood and considered it, but, as you say, you just couldn't know for sure!

Possibly the success of Ireland from 1988 onwards and our participation at the 94 World Cup, might have worried the IFA that players might consider us over them. Tommy Coyne's background and role in this WC might have also been a minor factor in their thinking.

What was Tommy Coyne's background? He's from Govan, but did he qualify through northern ancestry?

Didn't Jason McAteer qualify through northern roots as well? Was his grandfather from the Newry/Armagh/Down area or have I imagined that? Pretty sure I read that somewhere.

In other news, Eamon Donoghue of the Irish Times appears to think James McClean and Shane Duffy, two Irish nationals by virtue of their births in Ireland, are "foreign-born": http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...land-1.2671633

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Originally Posted by Eamon Donoghue

Ireland have selected the second most amount of foreign-born players of any of the nations competing in the upcoming European Championships.

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Ireland’s eight players are Jonathan Walters, Ciaran Clark, Cyrus Christie and Richard Keogh - all born in England. Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy are both Scottish-born, while Shane Duffy and James McClean both qualify for the list as they were born in Northern Ireland.

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To say they "qualify for the list" of "foreign-born" players is just legally inaccurate, not to mention completely ignorant and insulting. Irish nationality law treats the island as a unit for the purpose of determining nationality. Irish nationals born in the north are not deemed foreign-born under Irish law; their status is the exact same as Irish nationals born anywhere else on the island. Their non-foreign status is further evidenced by the fact that the Foreign Births Register applies only to births external to the island; births in the north are not and cannot be included in the register.

His list isn't even correct otherwise anyway. He forgot about Manchester-born Westwood.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

In other news, Eamon Donoghue of the Irish Times appears to think James McClean and Shane Duffy, two Irish nationals by virtue of their births in Ireland, are "foreign-born": http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...land-1.2671633



To say they "qualify for the list" of "foreign-born" players is just legally inaccurate, not to mention completely ignorant and insulting. Irish nationality law treats the island as a unit for the purpose of determining nationality. Irish nationals born in the north are not deemed foreign-born under Irish law; their status is the exact same as Irish nationals born anywhere else on the island. Their non-foreign status is further evidenced by the fact that the Foreign Births Register applies only to births external to the island; births in the north are not and cannot be included in the register.

His list isn't even correct otherwise anyway. He forgot about Manchester-born Westwood.

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I wonder if he wrote it before the squad was selected, expecting Forde to make the cut, then forgot to change it.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

What was Tommy Coyne's background? He's from Govan, but did he qualify through northern ancestry?

Didn't Jason McAteer qualify through northern roots as well? Was his grandfather from the Newry/Armagh/Down area or have I imagined that? Pretty sure I read that somewhere.

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I probably didn't explain myself properly. I was more thinking along the lines that while Houghton was Scottish born, he played in England, while Coyne was Scottish based, and this was possibly a wake up call to the IFA that this trend had the possibility to happen in their own backyard, as it had just across the ditch. Just on Coyne's background like many Scottish born Irish players, his ancestors seem to be from Donegal!

https://medium.com/@KCsixtyseven/don...c1c#.wzggcaopb

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I wonder if he wrote it before the squad was selected, expecting Forde to make the cut, then forgot to change it.

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Ah, that is a possibility.

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Originally Posted by gastric

I probably didn't explain myself properly. I was more thinking along the lines that while Houghton was Scottish born, he played in England, while Coyne was Scottish based, and this was possibly a wake up call to the IFA that this trend had the possibility to happen in their own backyard, as it had just across the ditch. Just on Coyne's background like many Scottish born Irish players, his ancestors seem to be from Donegal!

https://medium.com/@KCsixtyseven/don...c1c#.wzggcaopb

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That's a great read. Cheers for that.

Then the IFA discomfort in april 1994 was in the context of the make up and success of the team that Jack had built over the previous 6 years, the escalating nature of our use of 1st and 2nd generation nationals and this generated a fear amongst the IFA that the nordie nationalist held in football bondage could be next, even though not one player in the IFA jurisdiction had declared for the FAI. As in, a fear that once one player gets the taste of freedom the floodgates will open, the shifty fenians will flee in droves.

I suppose it's best not to try and work out the rationale behind the statement they forwarded to the FiFA committee for consideration that 'almost any player can obtain a Republic of Ireland passport in order to secure eligibility to play for this country'.

But it was capped by an equally bizarre reply.
The Committee discussed this very serious matter at length and had to come to the unfortunate conclusion that FIFA cannot interfere with the decisions taken by any
country in the question of granting passports.

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

To say they "qualify for the list" of "foreign-born" players is just legally inaccurate, not to mention completely ignorant and insulting. Irish nationality law treats the island as a unit for the purpose of determining nationality

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Heh. Quality Mopery from the lad Invincible there. I'm guessing that Eamon Donoghue isn't a NI, Scotland or England fan taking the p*ss, although I suppose he could be a self-loathing Blueshirt Partitionist (other abuses available). The problem he's pointing out is that the FAI can only find 14 players good enough who've actually lived in the country. I mean, even the hapless IFA managed 18 in a tiny backwater of the next door country. Shame Wilson, Darkside Darron and EOK missed out, we could have claimed the full set.

PS doesn't the Law still avoid trivia?

More tedious, hypocritical nonsense.

This thread is not about point scoring, move on

If that was true, you'd have blocked most of the posters in it a long time ago.

The last word shouldn't be that effort at incitement by GR. Not on this forum anyway, I don't think. It is completely unfair to our own players to suggest that Shane Duffy and James McClean have not lived in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

If that was true, you'd have blocked most of the posters in it a long time ago.

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#forummodproblems

But I don't have a problem.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Heh. Quality Mopery from the lad Invincible there. I'm guessing that Eamon Donoghue isn't a NI, Scotland or England fan taking the p*ss, although I suppose he could be a self-loathing Blueshirt Partitionist (other abuses available). The problem he's pointing out is that the FAI can only find 14 players good enough who've actually lived in the country. I mean, even the hapless IFA managed 18 in a tiny backwater of the next door country. Shame Wilson, Darkside Darron and EOK missed out, we could have claimed the full set.

PS doesn't the Law still avoid trivia?

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Where's the trivia?

If there's a point to be made about FAI infrastructural or developmental problems, it can be made without referring to players who were born in Ireland as "foreign-born". (I mean, McClean also played for Derry City in the League of Ireland; not IFA-affiliated.) It's not mopery on my part. It's simply a legally-inaccurate thing to say and a silly demeaning attitude that deserves criticism.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

For the benefit of other readers, the conversation tends to go like this (unlike the impression above that it was raised once or twice and duly forgotten):

Random RoI poster/ commentator/ sh*t-stirrer: Why don't we have a united Ireland football team?

Passing NI fan: It would mean by definition the end of the NI team. We aren't interested for the umpteenth time. Now go away and stop stirring

DI: Hang on. Why do you assume the NI team alone would disappear? The FAI's would have to go too

GR: Fine, you go ahead and dissolve your own team. Probably best to consult with your fans first though, maybe try knocking some doors in Darndale to sell the idea?

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It would obviously be a mutually-agreed thing that would necessarily involve compromise on both sides, if it were to happen and work, that is. That's the point I make really. When I make that point, I generally make it to our own fans, or to that "Random RoI poster/commentator/sh*t-stirrer", as you refer to him or her. I'm not lecturing NI fans nor am I imposing moral expectations on them; just encouraging some self-reflection on what we can do that might be conducive to realising a single united team (if that is indeed what we, or some of us, would desire). We can't really just expect NI fans to be happy with their team being subsumed by the FAI. For one, it'd be hypocritical of us because we hardly expect the same of ourselves (say, our team being subsumed by the IFA). That's the gist of it; to say I'm advocating the dissolution of the FAI, as if it's some active campaign I'm engaged in, gives a misleading impression. I'm just testing theoretical waters and engaging in dialogue. You have to start somewhere and can only learn by interacting with those you might wish to persuade.

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Originally Posted by Ole Ole

The last word shouldn't be that effort at incitement by GR. Not on this forum anyway, I don't think. It is completely unfair to our own players to suggest that Shane Duffy and James McClean have not lived in Ireland

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I didn't incite anything (gentle retaliation at worst). There's a border, if any of the people I mentioned have ever lived on your side of it correct me. There's nothing remotely unfair in suggesting that you accept reality.

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

Where's the trivia?

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Nothing I, or Eamon Donoghue, said is legally actionable. Even suggesting that it's in any way a legal matter is trivial.

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It would obviously be a mutually-agreed thing that would necessarily involve compromise on both sides, if it were to happen and work, that is

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It wouldn't actually. The two 'sides' you present are entirely at cross-purposes, there is no possibility whatever of compromise. We (NI fans) make clear time and again that we are not interested in joining, merging with or even taking over your football team. This isn't a process of give and take for you, it's just another element in your foundation myth. It's historically bunk, not conducive to neighborly good relations and quite likely unhealthy. You should give it up and focus on something actually achievable.

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to say I'm advocating the dissolution of the FAI, as if it's some active campaign I'm engaged in, gives a misleading impression

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You want the end of the IFA as a first principle but aren't willing or confident enough to argue that in isolation. The equal end of the FAI is an inevitable consequence of any new entity replacing both.

More hogwash. Ever heard of the GFA?

There is no border these days and if there's a UI team it will be decided by FIFA/UEFA not fans FFS.

. We (NI fans) make clear time and again that we are not interested in joining, merging with or even taking over your football .[/QUOTE]

But who exactly are NI fans? The majority of people in NI apparently do favour a single team. If you are defining supporters as simply the people who attend games - or even simply people who agree with you - I think you are failing to understand the idea that underpins international football. You are not a club. The team "represents" the place / country / people not just a self-selecting and seemingly unrepresentative group of football fans.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Nothing I, or Eamon Donoghue, said is legally actionable. Even suggesting that it's in any way a legal matter is trivial.

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I indicated that what he'd said was legally-inaccurate; not legally-actionable. The relevant constitutional article refers to the island as a unit for the determination of nationality by birth. It also refers to beyond the island - and not beyond the border of the southern state - as "abroad". Also, only births outside the island can be included in the Foreign Births Register. If births in the north were legally-foreign, they would qualify for inclusion in the register, but they don't. Therefore, they are not foreign births under Irish law, meaning Donoghue was incorrect to refer to them as such.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

But who exactly are NI fans? The majority of people in NI apparently do favour a single team. If you are defining supporters as simply the people who attend games - or even simply people who agree with you - I think you are failing to understand the idea that underpins international football. You are not a club. The team "represents" the place / country / people not just a self-selecting and seemingly unrepresentative group of football fans.

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I'll trust every NI fan I know (on this issue if no other they all agree with me) ahead of what one academic sociology survey of often non-football fans apparently/ seemingly says. Remind me how the united Ireland football team party did in the last/ any NI election?

I understand the nature of football support just as well as you, thanks . The NI team represents anyone who wants to support it, whether at home or abroad. They're self-selecting pretty much by definition.

Yawn.
He was talking about all the people of that supposed country. Which even 100k fans doesn't outweigh.
Anyway when FIFA decide there has to be ultimately one team per country, then three of the four British teams will have to find elsewhere to swim.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I'll trust every NI fan I know (on this issue if no other they all agree with me) ahead of what one academic sociology survey of often non-football fans apparently/ seemingly says. Remind me how the united Ireland football team party did in the last/ any NI election?

I understand the nature of football support just as well as you, thanks . The NI team represents anyone who wants to support it, whether at home or abroad. They're self-selecting pretty much by definition.

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You are making a rather tell- tale connection there between people who would support a single football team and people who support the political objective of a united Ireland. The evidence suggests this is an erroneous connection. If your argument was valid it would follow that anyone who supports Northern Ireland is logically pro-Union which is manifestly not true either. It is the tendency of a certain very vociferous faction if NI fans to assert this point that constitutes the problem, and inclines a lot of people whose primary interest is football not politics to support the idea of a single team.

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

You are making a rather tell- tale connection there between people who would support a single football team and people who support the political objective of a united Ireland. The evidence suggests this is an erroneous connection

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OK Constable, quote me your evidence. Mine (mainly anecdotal, but large scale and confirmed time and again over decades), is that most people in NI who would like to see the NI international team disappear are Nationalist in their politics. The notion of a large group who want the former while being Unionist, otherwise political or simply uninterested is fanciful. Of course there will be individuals who buck the trend, just as there are Unionist votes in Belfast North who transferred to SF after elimination in the recent election. Nine out of a total poll of about 35,000 if you're interested.

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If your argument was valid it would follow that anyone who supports Northern Ireland is logically pro-Union which is manifestly not true either

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My argument is fairly simple, although you have either misunderstood or not read it. Briefly: almost everyone wanting the team dissolved is a Nationalist. Which isn't the same as nobody supporting it can therefore be Nationalist, although clearly those who do are in a minority.

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It is the tendency of a certain very vociferous faction if NI fans to assert this point that constitutes the problem, and inclines a lot of people whose primary interest is football not politics to support the idea of a single team

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I'm seeing a tendency for people who want to abolish a football team to fail to back up their spurious reasons for doing so. I suggest you recommend to your lots of non-political football fans that if they don't like the teams available that they form their own and work their way up from the Park Leagues.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

OK Constable, quote me your evidence. Mine (mainly anecdotal, but large scale and confirmed time and again over decades), is that most people in NI who would like to see the NI international team disappear are Nationalist in their politics.

So we choose to dismiss the only credible piece of quantitative evidence in favour of random anecdotal conversations between you and your mates. Actually it's not just politically motivated Nationalists who have advocated a single team, it's a succession of NI footballing icons from both traditions and presumably different, if any, political viewpoints.


My argument is fairly simple, although you have either misunderstood or not read it. Briefly: almost everyone wanting the team dissolved is a Nationalist. Which isn't the same as nobody supporting it can therefore be Nationalist, although clearly those who do are in a minority.

Let's not get too lost in complex syllogisms here. Let's just remind ourselves of the evidence. Most people in NI would like to see a single football team. It works for Rugby, boxing, cricket, golf etc and no one feels politically compromised.


I'm seeing a tendency for people who want to abolish a football team to fail to back up their spurious reasons for doing so. I suggest you recommend to your lots of non-political football fans that if they don't like the teams available that they form their own and work their way up from the Park Leagues.

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The reasons have been consistently backed-up. They have been articulated very eloquently by a large number of people including, I repeat, ex NI international players, and are primarily about having a better team. You might hold a different view, but you and your circle if true fans appear to be in a minority.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

But who exactly are NI fans? The majority of people in NI apparently do favour a single team. If you are defining supporters as simply the people who attend games - or even simply people who agree with you - I think you are failing to understand the idea that underpins international football. You are not a club. The team "represents" the place / country / people not just a self-selecting and seemingly unrepresentative group of football fans.

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Find that a weird question. Regardless of who international football teams are *supposed* to represent, the fans whose opinion should be paramount is clearly the people who go to matches, buy jerseys, follow the forturnes of the team on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

Not those who occasionally glance at the Michael O'Neill interview at the back of a Bel Tel or would love to see an All-Ireland team cause of some kumbaya need to heal the ills of the last 40-odd years.

The evidence of support is flimsy and, besides, usual rules don't apply in Northern Ireland - a lot of people are ambivalent towards the national team because questions of nationality are more than a little bit complicated, as we well know.

Anecdotally, most people I know who've expressed support for an All-Ireland team are either vaguely Republic fans, have no real interest in international football or, indeed, no real interest in football at any level.

Personally, I can imagine the reaction on here if the RoI matches were compromised because of the views of people who think the Aviva is a type of car.

The only way I see it changing is if a united Ireland comes about. No danger of that for a good while yet, so horse on GAWA.

I do think that the experience of the big time might change that. You can't miss what you've never had and frankly the world has changed since the last time NI qualified in 1986.

Big tournament football is where it's at these days. The difference in the experience between 1994 & 2002 was marked. The difference in the experience between 2002 & 2012 was marked. Imagine how the 1986 to 2016 difference is. This will be a rude awakening for them.

That will be great for a while but if they go for 8 or 10 years without it happening again (which, let's face it, is likely) that might change. The average guy in the street who supports the Ireland rugby team could come to miss the glamour of the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

So we choose to dismiss the only credible piece of quantitative evidence in favour of random anecdotal conversations between you and your mates. Actually it's not just politically motivated Nationalists who have advocated a single team, it's a succession of NI footballing icons from both traditions and presumably different, if any, political viewpoints

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I see. Only that evidence which agrees with your inbuilt bias is credible? You'll need to improve on that to pass the Sergeant's exam.

My evidence, apart from being built up from thousands of fans and hundreds of matches over decades, is hardly random, Mr Professor of Logic. A huge number of self-selecting fans outweigh a few handfuls of ex-players and your elusive mass of garden centre Unionists hinted at in one question in one sociological survey (which was generally about community access to recreational facilities). Unless you think George Best or Derek Dougan's ability as players makes their opinion worth vastly more than any individual fan's, they're about as numerically significant as the TUV voters transferring to SF that I mentioned.

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Let's not get too lost in complex syllogisms here. Let's just remind ourselves of the evidence. Most people in NI would like to see a single football team. It works for Rugby, boxing, cricket, golf etc and no one feels politically compromised

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Yes, let's not lapse into cod-academic waffle. One survey response and a few ex-players aren't evidence of most people in NI. As SvD suggests above, most people there (like almost anywhere) aren't that interested in football. A survey question asked slightly differently- 'Do you think the NI football team should be abolished' would likely have got a rather different response. And given the context (ie, that there's already an alternative all-Ireland team for people to support) would have given a more realistic picture.

As you may know, NI's leading performers in many sports including most that you mentioned already take part other than in all-Ireland teams. Whether that be in a NI team (eg at the Commonwealth Games), for Britain or occasionally England, or in individual sports under the NI flag. Actually rugby union is as much of an anomaly as football. Which brings us full circle: there might still be a single Irish team if the FAI hadn't split in protest at perceived local bias. There's no chance in the foreseeable future of returning to one.

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The reasons have been consistently backed-up. They have been articulated very eloquently by a large number of people including, I repeat, ex NI international players, and are primarily about having a better team. You might hold a different view, but you and your circle if true fans appear to be in a minority

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Only in your imagination.

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Originally Posted by Backs to the Wall

Big tournament football is where it's at these days

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Really? You've made three tournaments out of the last 11. Wales, NI and Scotland went/ have gone 40, 30 and 18 years respectively since any success. All four kept a hardcore of support throughout. If any of us wanted to lose our identity for a better chance of qualifying, there are better alternatives available.

Not sure I get your RU parallel. Effectively, the Six Nations play the same qualifying tournament over and again, before getting walloped when they meet the Southern Hemisphere teams in the World Cup. If their fans prefer repeated trips to Edinburgh or Cardiff than a choice of 50 different countries, fine. Each to their own.

More pointless waffle.

Also Scotland and Wales have their own unique flags, languages and anthems to help keep their identity. What does the North have?

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

More pointless waffle.

Also Scotland and Wales have their own unique flags, languages and anthems to help keep their identity. What does the North have?

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They have GR who is fairly handy PR asset though overly reliant on rhetorical flourishes (I love "garden centre Unionist" description), but a bit weak on logic and empirical evidence.

If he's still listening, can I extend sincere best wishes for the Euros. They were "my team" back in the day as he knows. There was a time when the NI team was one of the few unifying emblems that transcended sectarian and political affiliations in the North, and therein lies the tragedy. They are now a fetish for Unionist identity and GR's particularly vivid brand of "No Surrender" rhetoric.

And why should people whose only crime is to have visited a garden be ignored and cast to the margins of Unionism? It must have been a Sunday.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro201...16-402968.html

Get beyond the feelgood factor as Euro 2016 looms and there is real cause for concern for the Republic of Ireland when attention turns to a tough-looking World Cup qualifying campaign, writes Brendan O’Brien

Tuesday’s performance and result at Turner’s Cross aside, it has been a pleasant enough run-in to the European Championships, with the blue skies and sunshine that has framed training at the National Sports Campus in Dublin and Cork’s Fota Island doing its bit in keeping the mood upbeat and optimistic.

It isn’t just the Republic of Ireland who have benefited.

Northern Ireland’s visit to Carton House late last month coincided with the long stretch of hazy bliss, and it lent a peaceful and cheerful air to a relaxed media day when 21 of Michael O’Neill’s players wandered in and around the building and surrounding gardens, where they chatted away to their hearts’ content.

The entire affair lasted two hours and it was only halfway done when the thought struck that the overwhelming majority of those interviewed bore distinctly recognisable Northern accents. A pretty obvious assertion, you might think, but the contrast having spent so long covering their Republic of Ireland counterparts was marked in that regard.

Just to be clear: this is not to decry the presence of any player born in Derry, Glasgow, Manchester in Martin O’Neill’s squad, but the presence of so many with accents hewn from jurisdictions other than that of the 26 counties is still an issue which probably doesn’t get as much air time as it should merit.

Martin O’Neill’s 23-man squad for Euro 2016 includes nine players whose birth certs were processed outside of the Republic.
In fairness, the proportion of second and third generation Irish in previous squads used to be even greater. The number was 11 in 1988 and 2002 and 13 in the 1990 and 1994 World Cups. Or, 56% of both those squads, in other words.

It fell to just eight for Euro 2012 and, while the Republic will have a greater amount of players with domestic league experience in their latest squad, the North have chosen only five men who qualified through parentage or the granny rule. And this despite a population which is roughly one-third that of southern neighbours who haven’t always been, well, neighbourly.

The procurement of players born, bred and made in the North by the FAI has been stemmed since Michael O’Neill took charge in Belfast, but there will be those watching as the tournament unfolds in France for whom the sight of Shane Duffy and James McClean wearing a different shade of green will not sit well.

Among them will be Felix Healy. Born in Derry, Healy played and managed in the League of Ireland and the Irish League and he also lined out for Northern Ireland at the 1982 World Cup. The Troubles were embedded in the fabric of daily life in the North at the time. The Good Friday Agreement and the merest hint of someone representing the Republic was another generation down the road.

“When I was playing, you were Northern Ireland,” Healy explained, in a conversation with this column recently. “John O’Neill and I were from Derry and it was Northern Ireland. In Derry, now it is a different scenario. My eldest young fella is going to all the Republic of Ireland matches. He goes everywhere and he is going to France.

“The way Derry is (with players representing two different countries), it can be in many ways divisive. My thoughts are that you shouldn’t be allowed to play 15, 16, 17, and 18 and then just jump ship and play for somebody else, but that’s the nature of the beast. I hope both teams do well, but I think it will be incredibly difficult for both.”

Whether sourced in Northern Ireland or elsewhere, the sheer volume of players whose football education was gleaned from systems outside the Republic is alarming — their presence at this elevated level had little or nothing to do with the FAI, beyond some underage squads and in the case of those from the North, not even that.

The FAI and its high performance director Ruud Dokter will argue that they have put ever-improving systems, structures, and expertise in place at grassroots levels in recent years and yet the lack of talent progressing through those pathways to the senior international side has been all but non-existent under O’Neill’s watch.

It emerged on Wednesday that Ireland will have the oldest squad by average age at Euro 2016, as was the case in 2012. The average age will be just 68 days short of 30, which is an exceptionally high figure for any major field sport, and only nine debuts have been handed out by O’Neill since his first game in charge, against Latvia, in November of 2013. Just two of those were players who played their underage club football in the Republic before making it as professional footballers in the UK, and neither Jonny Hayes or Alan Judge are what we would call spring chickens. It’s a damning rap sheet and a real cause for concern once the Euros end and attention turns to a much stiffer World Cup qualifying campaign.

Don't mind GR, he's just trying to get the rise, for reasons best known to himself.
:eek:

Brendan O'Brien says in his piece quoted by Stutts above that the FAI "haven’t always been, well, neighbourly". "Procurement"? This is nonsense. There's nothing illegitimate going on. Some journalists - mainly southern ones? - need to get over their guilt complex. The FAI facilitate eligible players who are willing and good enough. These are players who've grown up supporting Ireland and who dream of playing for Ireland. It's the players' choice. If the FAI self-imposed a ban on selecting a particular set of eligible Irish nationals, or specifically Irish nationals from the north, there'd be a lot of unhappy people, north, south and beyond; myself included.

He claims the "merest hint of someone representing the Republic was another generation down the road" from Felix Healy's playing days in the '80s, but he's obviously unaware of the case of Jimmy McGeough Sr., who was denied the opportunity to play for the FAI in the late '60s despite being eligible in principle. Other players such as Danny Hale and Danny Trainor would also have been keen.

He makes a number of good points about FAI infrastructural and developmental problems otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

It wouldn't actually. The two 'sides' you present are entirely at cross-purposes, there is no possibility whatever of compromise. We (NI fans) make clear time and again that we are not interested in joining, merging with or even taking over your football team. This isn't a process of give and take for you, it's just another element in your foundation myth. It's historically bunk, not conducive to neighborly good relations and quite likely unhealthy. You should give it up and focus on something actually achievable.

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One could make the very same argument about partition - that it's divisive and not conducive to neighbourly good relations - surely? Why is the notion of unity "historically bunk" and "quite likely unhealthy"? Would you describe unionism or even the evidently historically-problematic, life-costing and economically-impoverishing concept of Northern Ireland in such terms? Ireland was one before NI ever came into existence, which wasn't even a century ago. That's not to deny the validity of your divergent aspirations; it's just to say that you're hardly in a position to be lecturing or pretending your aspirations have any more merit than mine, especially when those aspirations are creating greater hardship for people whilst the rest of Ireland prospers. Since when did we have to stifle or discard our ideals and aspirations based on what others might think is or isn't achievable, or even based on what others might prefer us to believe in?

It's borderline insulting to assert a sort of absolute superiority of ideas, but you'll no doubt accuse me of more "mopery". You can't always play that card when someone raises a grievance or takes issue with hypocrisy, disrespect or ignorance. It's like the old "it's political correctness gone mad" mantra of the Right when their insulting and inaccurate ideas are rightly criticised and challenged. ;)

Anyway, the point is that I'm not campaigning for or even advocating a forced abolition of the IFA, which is almost how you make it out. It's not correct to say "this isn't a process of give and take" for me. I fully respect the IFA's right to exist and I'm well aware of the desires of NI supporters. That's fine. Any change would be completely voluntary, mutually-agreed and would necessarily involve compromise on both sides. I'm only having a theoretical discussion about it and it's primarily directed at ourselves (or those of us who might be supportive of the idea of a united team) actually. It's self-reflection; not criticism of NI fans. In that sense, it always puzzles me as to why it seems to hit a nerve so much. It would be completely consensual, so there's no reason to feel threatened by it. If NI fans don't want it, fine; I won't hold it against them. It's up to those of us who might desire it to do the persuading and to present a compelling case. There's no moral expectation upon you whatsoever. You're entitled to your identity and your aspirations. Isn't that respectful and tolerant? I have no interest in forcing anything upon anyone and would strongly object to that notion.

A united team is, as SvD says, unlikely except in the event of a united Ireland - I'm fully aware - but I think these sorts of cultural-rooted conversations are ones that proponents of unity - of both team and country - must think about having as there's quite a bit of "ideological" and practical cross-over in terms of acknowledging that we'll necessarily have to compromise rather than just expect unionists to jump aboard the idea. Similar principles apply to the idea of uniting Ireland as apply to the discussion of uniting the football teams, or even to the discussion on whether or not the Irish rugby team is as inclusive as it claims to be.

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You want the end of the IFA as a first principle but aren't willing or confident enough to argue that in isolation. The equal end of the FAI is an inevitable consequence of any new entity replacing both.

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I have acknowledged that that could be a consequence though, so why would I focus solely on the IFA. To do so would be hypocritical, which I always strive to avoid. The idea of applying the same principles that we apply to others to ourselves is very important. It's not out of cowardice that I talk of compromise. I know it's not even a prevalent idea amongst Ireland fans or even republicans, but I think it's important to self-reflect and to challenge conventional wisdom when it's proving counter-productive. It's hardly cowardice to do that. Many people on "this side" of the fence would offload scorn and loathing upon my ideas.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Which brings us full circle: there might still be a single Irish team if the FAI hadn't split in protest at perceived local bias. There's no chance in the foreseeable future of returning to one.

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I think the local bias was evident. Anyway, it's not accurate to describe the FAI as having split as it would suggest a partitionist sentiment inspired the establishment of the association, which simply isn't true. I wrote this a while back on it on my blog:

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To assume there was [a partitionist] spirit would be to misunderstand the events of the day.

The FAI was originally set up in 1921, not technically to split from the IFA, but to actually replace the IFA as the national all-island association. It was reported in August of that year that the organisation was the “Football Association of All-Ireland [and] as its name indicates, will have jurisdiction over all Ireland, and it is expected that clubs will affiliate from all provinces”. Indeed, the Falls District League of mainly-nationalist west Belfast (which included clubs like West Ham and Alton United, who won the 1923 FAI Cup) affiliated with the new Dublin-based association along with other northern clubs from the predominantly-nationalist settlements of Derry and Downpatrick.

It was only when the Dublin association came to seek admission to FIFA, the international governing body of football, in 1923 that the FAI’s jurisdiction was limited to the 26 counties of what was then the Irish Free State and it adopted the name ‘the Football Association of the Irish Free State’. In effect, formal and official recognition was dependent upon a compromising on ideals; the association would not have been admitted to FIFA had it insisted on maintaining a 32-county, all-island jurisdiction.

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Numerous attempts and meetings to reconcile the two associations were attempted over the years but failed for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

They have GR who is fairly handy PR asset though overly reliant on rhetorical flourishes (I love "garden centre Unionist" description)

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You flatter me- although I think 'complex syllogism' probably wins the prize for rhetorical flourish/ sh*tting a thesaurus. Garden Centre Unionist (ie, non-voting, often dismissive of the plebs who do) has been used in the local media for a long time.

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but a bit weak on logic and empirical evidence

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Poor comeback. The only evidence you've added to my original reference is that a few unnamed NI players would prefer there not to be a NI team. That handful are well known, although perhaps telling that you didn't name any. Forgotten who they are?

We've already established that you think 'most critics of the NI team are Nationalists' leads directly to 'Nationalists can't support NI'. You're aren't really in a position to criticise anyone else's logic, I'm afraid.

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If he's still listening, can I extend sincere best wishes for the Euros. They were "my team" back in the day as he knows. There was a time when the NI team was one of the few unifying emblems that transcended sectarian and political affiliations in the North, and therein lies the tragedy

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Good wishes returned with thanks. The main reason many from the broadly Nationalist community don't support NI is that they identify with the Republic's team. I have no problem with that, wish them well and don't agree that it's a tragedy.

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They are now a fetish for Unionist identity and GR's particularly vivid brand of "No Surrender" rhetoric

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They are much less fetishised as Unionist than during the Troubles. I haven't suggested anything that a reasonable reader could characterise as 'No Surrender'. That's just a not very complex silliness.

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

One could make the very same argument about partition - that it's divisive and not conducive to neighbourly good relations - surely?

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Whataboutery alert. Anyway, you and I and others on this thread have discussed various alternatives to the current partition (each of which would of course be repartition of a kind). Contrary to TP's claim above, I'm always up for a discussion towards compromise ;)

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Why is the notion of unity "historically bunk" and "quite likely unhealthy"?

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The foundation myth? There was never a united Ireland except under British rule. The football team(s)? You already have one that any Irish supporter or player can follow or aspire to play for. That should be enough for anyone reasonable, but instead you riff incessantly about the end of another team. It's obsessive, so potentially unhealthy.

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Would you describe unionism or even the evidently historically-problematic, life-costing and economically-impoverishing concept of Northern Ireland in such terms?

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A concept didn't intimidate my family out of the New Lodge. As you know, I regularly criticise Unionist and British Govt politics. I'm an equal opportunity critic.

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you're hardly in a position to be lecturing or pretending your aspirations have any more merit than mine

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I'm neither lecturing nor pretending anything, just answering your argument. Which is after all that my football team shouldn't exist, however much you dance around a pinhead suggesting summat else.

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especially when those aspirations are creating greater hardship for people whilst the rest of Ireland prospers

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Without wishing to be trite, Josh Magennis or Lee Hodson playing international football in a major tournament isn't harming anyone, although I imagine it upsets most Kilmarnock fans just a wee bit. On the wider issue, as discussed recently I'm not convinced by David McWilliams and others: the South still has structural economic problems and an extra 40% population is likely to worsen thosein any notional UI.

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It's borderline insulting to assert a sort of absolute superiority of ideas

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Maybe it is- but I haven't done that.

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You can't always play that card when someone raises a grievance or takes issue with hypocrisy, disrespect or ignorance

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Don't be silly. I only raise it when your supposed 'grievances' are trivial, as I said.

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Anyway, it's not accurate to describe the FAI as having split as it would suggest a partitionist sentiment inspired the establishment of the association, which simply isn't

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Er, no. It suggests what it says- that the FAI split. I acknowledge that they hoped/ assumed the IFA would simply allow them to take over. Until it didn't. In 1923 ;)

More circular waffle.